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By this I don't mean like because he's annoying, more like in a "He is SUCH a $%$^!" way. I was thinking maybe ask your players what kinds of bad people in real life they hate the most and then make the villain a combination of those concepts.
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There are universally hated things that can get a party emotionally invested, but honestly, I try avoid a lot of those things in my games. I'm not going to make an overtly racist BBEG just to try ruffle some feathers and get the party to be engaged. You might encounter the information, but never see it in action... like when gathering information about the BBEG, you might learn/hear that they are a xenophobic bigot, but I will never subject the table to that being roleplayed out in front of them.
No, I like to introduce enemies early, break some of the party's nice things, then bounce. The ultimate insult you can do to the party is have the BBEG leave/escape.
Oh man, we are going to kill that MF next time, I swear...
But they don't, because BBEG D-doors out at half health, AGAIN. Lol. It's funny, but it also teaches a valuable lesson to those willing to learn from it. Lots, and I mean LOTS, of enemies use this very same tactic. A party should be prepared, or at least capable of preparing, against such things as an enemy that uses Dimension Door/Teleport at half health.
Adapt, or die... it's your choice. Force them to change their tactics, and kill them without remorse if they don't.
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BBEG D Doors as get out of jail free cards are pretty cliché, so if I D Door, I usually do it to quickly transport across a battlemap. Or, you can use the D Door offensively, and wait for the PC to grab you, then D Door with the PC 1000 ft straight up in the air, end the grapple, and feather fall down. The PC's have 2 rounds to figure out how to catch their buddy.
I do like to have recurring villains who the PC's love to hate, and not for how annoying they are, but how crafty they are. I like to have my BBEGs escape with flair, like Earth Glide, Wall of Ice/Stone/Force, Expeditious Excavation/Construction, Magic Jar, etc. If you know your BBEG is about to get rocked and you don't have an escape path, Illusions are great in a pinch. If you do have an escape path, don't be afraid to turn that scene into a chase scene. Have your BBEG flee and steal a horse or a horse-drawn carriage :)
If you really want your PC's to hate a particular BBEG tho, kill one of the PC's lackeys or pets and then *poof* out with the aforementioned flair.
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If you really want your PC's to hate a particular BBEG, kill one of the PC's lackeys or pets and then *poof* out with the aforementioned flair.
This is what I meant by breaking their nice things... snuff out a Familiar and abscond with its body... that'll get 'em going.
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This is what I meant by breaking their nice things... snuff out a Familiar and abscond with its body... that'll get 'em going.
If you really want your PC's to hate a particular BBEG, kill one of the PC's lackeys or pets and then *poof* out with the aforementioned flair.
Yes, break their nice things :)
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Most of these seem to be the "they hate him because he's annoying" type. What about "they hate him because he's a truly despicable person" ideas?
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Lately, I have been trying to explore alternative concepts that are near-universally hated... even if just within the realm of the DnD fantasy universe.
Hags/Covens/creepy Witch-stuffs,
Fleshwarping,
Ritual demon possession/damnation,
Trading/consumption of souls,
Necromancy...
And sure, these are pretty common concepts when it comes to "bad guys"... but that means you have lots of in-game support to get the most out of your chosen concept(s). I think it is better to have lots of feats, classes, spells, and items that have to do with what I am doing, rather than trying to force a unique concept into the mechanics of this game.
Look at the time travel concept. Fun? Sure. Interesting? Absolutely. Would it make for an interesting villain the party could hate on a personal level? Probably. But support for such a concept is limited, and you will have to freehand a lot of stuff, which might have unforeseen consequences interacting with existing game mechanics. Is there time travel in PF1? Yes... pretty sure Baba Yaga sends you to WW1, on Earth... but it is rare and support is limited.
Meanwhile, if you pick a concept like, I don't know, SPIDERS... you have all sorts of fun and interesting ways to build off that in the game [Deific Obedience:Mazmezz], and the Drow have an entire culture focused on the stupid things.
Your BBEG has to make sense in the world you are playing in. They need backstory that is so vile, the more you learn, the more you hate them. It's hard to add that history without game mechanics that back it up in a way that makes sense to what is available to the party. It has to be tangible...
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Mind control is something even I am afraid to touch.
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Most of these seem to be the "they hate him because he's annoying" type. What about "they hate him because he's a truly despicable person" ideas?Ah. That gets into trickier ground. This is where the obligatory cautions about table awareness, party consent, and comfort labels come into play (and should). As V-monk said, some things are nearly universally detestable, other things are more subjective. You have to know your players, and figure out what's going to push their buttons. You also need to be clear on whether you wish your players to viscerally hate and condemn the villain, or if you're wanting the type of villain you "hate" but also secretly (on not so secretly) kind of cheer for.
Are you looking for a Joffrey Lannister, a Darth Vader, or the Sanderson Sisters?
I think the first one. A villain who's completely vile and isn't sympathetic in the slightest (Darth Vader is obviously meant to be somewhat sympathetic despite being evil.)
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Most of these seem to be the "they hate him because he's annoying" type. What about "they hate him because he's a truly despicable person" ideas?
As far as truly despicable BBEG's, you can have them in charge of an insidiously evil operation, like any of these creepy farms. They don't even have to be in charge of it, tbqf, they can be a mid-high level enforcer/bruiser who works for the operation.
Having a truly "hate-able" BBEG is going to necessitate having escape options though. If he dies in the first encounter the PC's engage him in, then you're not giving him enough time to be "hated", if that makes sense.
Anywho, I think the main variable in the equation for PC's to truly hate a BBEG is to do personal damage to the PC's. As Sysryke and VM have said, "gotcha" moments of manipulation, killing familiars/lackeys/pets, mind control, etc.
Also, don't be afraid to let that BBEG kill or defeat the PC's in a straight up confrontation, and force the PC's to flee but without forcing a TPK. THAT is SURE to piss them off.
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Evil mostly rests in actions. And the more personal the actions, the more the players will feel about those actions. If all the players care about is their things, then you don't have much else to play with.
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One other thing that is important is the "build up" to the BBEG's confrontation. You can generate a lot of pre-combat hatred for a BBEG if the BBEG is actively attacking the PC's by proxy, and the perfect way to do this is to send assassins. And make the assassins powerful, they should at least be able to drop one or two of the PCs to unconscious during the fight. And then when the fight is over, the PC's loot the assassin and find a note from the BBEG that says "kill the PC's, they're despicable insects that aren't worthy of my attention, here's 4000g now, you'll get the rest when the job is done, and then when you're done rendezvous back at <insert plot hook location>".
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Here are a couple examples of recurring villains in my Trojan War-era Greek myth campaign, who my wife found it very easy to hate with a fiery passion. (This was a solo game run in a different RPG system, but should spark some ideas for making multiple PCs hate a villain in other games.)
* The campaign began when some of Achilles' Myrmidons tried to sack the city our heroine grew up in, which was down the coast from Troy. That was enough to make her hate Greeks, but particularly the leader of the army that attacked her home. She visited Troy on and off over the next few years, and had a couple close encounters with Achilles himself on the battlefield. Between his near-invulnerability, his archery skills (which rivaled hers), and his many depredations up and down the coast of Asia Minor, our heroine loathed and feared him above all others. (She did finally manage to slay him. After that, she shifted her hatred to the other Greek leaders--particularly Odysseus, who is one smarmy, superior SOB.)
* Witches have a certain mystique in this setting--they don't just know magic (which is very rare), they're schemers and seductresses, too. Our heroine has crossed paths with a number of them in her career, and has hated every one. One, they have weird mental powers that freak her out; two, they all seem interested in her studly romantic interest-slash-companion; and three, they fight dirty. The one she hates least (and has eventually become a very uneasy ally with) merely put her beloved to sleep so they could have a cryptic private chat the first time they met. The one she hates most placed some pretty vile curses on him and other people she cared about, and used those afflictions as leverage to get what she wanted in return for removing them. Because only the witch who placed the curse could remove it, our heroine didn't dare kill her outright, as she *really* wanted to do. They haven't seen each other since then--which is the only reason that witch is still very much alive.
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One other thing that is important is the "build up" to the BBEG's confrontation. You can generate a lot of pre-combat hatred for a BBEG if the BBEG is actively attacking the PC's by proxy, and the perfect way to do this is to send assassins. And make the assassins powerful, they should at least be able to drop one or two of the PCs to unconscious during the fight. And then when the fight is over, the PC's loot the assassin and find a note from the BBEG that says "kill the PC's, they're despicable insects that aren't worthy of my attention, here's 4000g now, you'll get the rest when the job is done, and then when you're done rendezvous back at <insert plot hook location>".
^---- actually this is a great set-up for a BBEG's "gotcha" moment. The PC's arrive at <insert plot hook location> and the metaphorical helicopter with the search light descends and lights up the exact spot where the PC's are, and then the BBEG maniacally resounds "MWAHAHA U DUMB IMBECILES FELL FOR MY TRAP, YOU THOUGHT THAT WAS A REAL ASSASSIN? I SENT HIM THERE TO DIE ON PURPOSE MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA n other stuff " And then his lackeys surround the PC's, or the floor falls out from underneath the PC's as they fall into a cleverly designed death acid electrocuted spike trap and the walls start closing in to smash them to bits.
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Have them kill an NPC they liked.
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Arrow Magnets augmented with the Hardening spell... or just Arrow Magnets, in general... players hate those. Lol. Have either the BBEG, or some of their minions, be archers that know which squares the magnets affect... and shoot around/between them. The party realizes they are taking constant damage whilst most of their attacks fall short.
It eats at one's sanity to feel useless and out of control. It's not about being annoying, it's about being better than them at every turn. It sucks being bested.
It sucks even more when the BBEG knows he/she/it is better, and makes it a point to remind the party. Every. Time.
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No, for the players to really hate the dragon, one of them charges it, they bounce off... and the dragon ignores them. "You are nothing to me, but ants. There is NOTHING you can do to stop me." And to prove his point the dragon begins dismantling reality while the characters literally can't do anything but watch.
THAT'S where hate is born. The feeling of powerlessness, of being helpless. Of knowing no matter what you pull out of where, you can't do anything to stop the bad guy from winning.
Yeah, that reminds of several White Wolf 'adventures' where the players kind of got to stand around and watch meta-plot play out, because the elder vampire / incarna / aberrant / Divis Mal / whatever was just operating way over the players level, so much so that they literally could not hurt it.
It is certainly one way to piss off the players, but might not make them hate the scripted foe, so much as the scripter of that encounter. :)
In my experience, to get the players hating the foe, the foe has to;
A) cost them personally (destroy a treasured item / kill a companion creature or familiar / drain their levels / leave a lasting curse or scar that isn't easily removed for some time) or
B) escape from certain death (preferably at the last moment when they were savoring their impending victory, or, even better, *after* their victory, he turns out to be a simulacra and melts away, so that they realize that not only did they not kill Evil Big Bad, the *real* big bad is that much tougher!)
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B) escape from certain death (preferably at the last moment when they were savoring their impending victory, or, even better, *after* their victory, he turns out to be a simulacra and melts away, so that they realize that not only did they not kill Evil Big Bad, the *real* big bad is that much tougher!)
I need to use this more... I guess it would give me a real to use Jadis more often. Jadis is my Winter Hag/Winter Witch/Winter Witch... and Winter Hags add sculpt simulacrum and simulacrum to the Coven-casting list.
Of course, I immediately default to something involving one of Covens. Lol.
I suppose there are, actually, other ways to access that/those spells...
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My GM had the villains kidnap my PC's cohort's 6-year-old daughter.
Even after we rescued her, we had to put her in a sanctuary (in this case, a large witch's coven) where she was protected from their insidious mental influence.
Of course, such things might be too much for many groups.
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Make them well loved by the NPCs of the world despite having no apparent redeeming qualities. Maybe they're famous for something their parents did, or they leverage blackmail material so that others feel its safer to speak well of them. NPCs frequently mistake the players for this villain and are disappointed when they realize their mistake. NPCs tell tales of adventures this villain has gone on that range from fairly trivial to obviously false and occasionally plagiarize the PCs exploits.
He never sticks around in a fight, and wields collateral damage as a weapon of first resort. He tends to manipulate innocent peasants into attacking the party, sets the environment on fire, liberally uses mines and poison. He'll spend one round creating chaos, then fleeing.
If cornered, he will apologize for other people's emotions, not for his actions. Argue that he's not a great person but there's obviously bigger threats than him and the party is just being petty. Then offer to sell people out if the party lets him go.
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Run a living world where the party's actions have direct impacts on what the BBEG gets away with... but they only find out after it is too late to do anything about it.
Oh good, three sessions ago you guys took that job to escort the convoy of building supplies to the river crossing... well, the people that commissioned this bridge be built just went all manifest destiny on the indigenous fae-folk across the river with pox-blankets and fireballs. It's already happened, there's no stopping it.
And they couldn't have done it without your help...
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make them untouchable; a lawful evil duke/duchess/queen who rides that fine line of villainy, whispering in the good but old king's ear, bending the kingdom to their will while hiding behind the rule of law and an army, have them claim rewards from the group as taxes, right of land and lordship, have them execute a beloved NPC for poaching, tax evasion, or some other charge they are guilty of, but a kinder ruler would choose mercy, etc... Make them insulting and snoobish who treats all of their lessers like pawns (and everyone is their lesser). Give them innocent, lovely children, those who would weep and be devastated at the loss of their parent and are their only weakness, but dare they use a child to strike at the villain?
PC get too upset with a villain and they'll just gank them and having a teleport scroll up their keister gets boring after the first couple of times, someone they cannot just straight out murder while maintaining some semblance of heroism really twists that knife.
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that's what the army is there for as well. They can be all murder hobo they want, murdering kobolds and goblins, try taking on a platoon of well-armed soldiers with magical army backup, champions, long-established pacts with outsiders, etc...If their alignment won't hold them in check, overwhelming power will.
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Make them [the party] into the villain of their own story.
Send them after the whatever, and let them murderhobo their way there... leaving a wake of destruction behind them, as they often do.
Then, allow them a moment to reflect upon what it took to achieve their goals. Sure, the elation of victory still hangs in the air, but look at all these peasants pushing their last belongings in carts... $#!+, we did that to them... we killed the lord of the castle for crimes none of citizens of his kingdom knew about... we removed the only authority in this land, and removed the only official body capable of conducting trade with other nations... the peasants are starving in this corner, whilst surplus brings rodents and disease over there.
If you travel a hundred miles to the southeast, there is another realm in ruin because you killed that random dragon... but that random dragon was the harold to their religion's god, and now their culture is collapsing into religious civil war.
Sometimes, it doesn't matter what they have scribbled on their character sheet under alignment. Sometimes it doesn't matter if they intended to be good and glorious. Maybe that dude that kicked your dog didn't deserve to die... maybe he was a father, a husband, a son, a grandpa... maybe that dragon had a larger role in its environment than shortsighted murderhobo brain can see...
The big reveal at the end isn't that it was the janitor that was under the ghost mask... it's just a mirror, and what's guilty is staring back at you.
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IF you're going to use this tactic, give the PC(s) a reasonable, human chance of resisting.
Back in AD&D 1e I was playing a unique kind of Magic User that the DM had helped me invent. He was a hybrid of Thief and MU rolled into one character. It took us hours of collaboration to make the dang thing, but about a week before his campaign started some of our mutual friends decided to bag on his campaign b/c they thought I was a better DM at the time (this is high school btw).
Fast forward to scene 1 of the first session of our new campaign. My "barrier mage" has just gone to sleep in a tavern. His dreams are invaded by a succubus who INSTANTLY charms me and I spend the entire rest of the campaign as her unwitting spy delivering intel to her and other demons.
This is just shapoopy GMing tbh. That would just make me not like the GM rather than the bbeg.
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I've found that the only villain that the players really hate is one that defeats them repeatedly. Sure, the characters may hate the BBEG but the lieutenant who caused the party to flee. Then tracked them down to the village inn and burnt it down and then escaped from the players' next encounter is the one the players hate.
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... but the lieutenant who caused the party to flee. Then tracked them down to the village inn and burnt it down...
This is my kind of villain.
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I made a liar-liar-pants-on-fire NPC that has the ability to pretty much dictate the narrative with their lies. They turned out so good at lying, that when people who hear his lies, repeat those lies to others, they use his Bluff skill instead of their own... his rumors spread like wildfire. And I found that the game is not set up to deal with something like this.
It takes a certain level of min-max'ing to even have a chance against unoptimized Bluff checks... I haven't seen the support for Sense Motive that I have seen available for Bluff, so going toe-to-toe with optimized Sense Motive still falls short against optimized Bluff. It's almost like mundane mind control. So, unless you're an Imposter-Wary Human 9th-level Wisdom-caster, you probably aren't going to be capable of not believing what a character like Cawn says.
Whatever Cawn says goes. The population would just be hostile to the party's existence for no reason. And there would be absolutely no way to track down where those rumors came from short of Wish.
How do you possibly fight against that without specific metagame knowledge to build an optimized Sense Motive character? Who ever builds their character specifically to counter Bluff?
That campaign would suck. And that's why I haven't ever weaponized Cawn. He is a legacy NPC that is usually present in any game I run, but I have never turned him against the party.
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I think Cawn character is interesting but certainly not undefeatable. The trick isn't necessarily to counter them and there are a number of real-life tricks that politicians and the like use. Those types of rumour will grow and increasingly have chinese whisper style embellishments to make a better story. If the party are only being described as a group fitting a certain description then they could remain incognito and add to the rumour. Highlight the depraved leader's scar that resembles Orcus's skull - which of course doesn't fit the party. If the party are known and recognisable then this doesn't work. However, one could try fighting fire with fire and start their own rumours of an even more salacious variety and/or the party could go on a goodwill offensive and throw a good party and/or the party could own up to something trivial that is related and deflate the story, or all three. Rather than countering bluff with sense motive, they are countering bluff with bluff and diplomacy
If the party have succeeded in deflating the rumours, are buying goodwill by hosting a festival or the like and have started their own counter-rumours it will be very difficult for Cawn to create a new narrative.
The campaign wouldn't necessarily suck but would be very roleplay/interrelationship heavy and most people aren't into that and/or can't roleplay it well - especially bearing in mind it is the character's skills and not the player's skills that are meant to be on show.