I don’t want Pacts to be Class Feats.

[keftiu]

These are wonderfully flavorful, and fit with all sorts of character types - not just Thaumaturges. I’d love to see them open to others.

[Golurkcanfly]

There's already a perfect design space to put the Pact Feats, too:

Contracts

Introduce more Contracts of varying levels and rarity.

Hell (pun intended), even one of the Pacts (the demon one) explicitly mentions a physical contract.

And instead of the Thaumaturge getting the Pact feats, they instead get unique ways to access and interact with Contracts, like ways to find more loopholes in contracts.

[notXanathar]

I quite like them, though I can see why you'd dislike them. I think they fit very well with thaumaturge character types: dabbling in all sorts of magic adjacent territory, relying on external rather than internal factors. Perhaps they could work as general feats, but I think they work fine as thaumaturge specific feats (though because of this I am starting to have doubts: I can't think of a particular reason as to why another character couldn't make such a pact).

[Farrindor]

I could see an Archetype for this, other archetypes swipe feats directly from main classes (Archer and Dual-Weapon Warrior) already. Much like Talisman Dabbler being poached by Thaumaturgist, I like letting them have one-feat options on things other classes still get to do, just via Archetyping.

[Golurkcanfly]

I'm still pushing the existing Contracts over Pacts since having the separate means that any interaction with one doesn't necessarily interact with the other, despite both being very similar in both themes and mechanics.

It's like in 1e where you could have a class feature that does the same thing as a given feat, but then you still need to take that feat to qualify for other feats instead of just having things interact from the get-go.

[pixierose]

I like the ideas of the pacts of feats. It seems on brand but I can understand why people would want them separate.

The difference at least to me is that Contracts are a type of pacts but not all pacts are contracts IMO.

Contracts feel like a very formal, sign on the dotted line kind of thing, while at least to me Pacts can be more subtle and definitely more verbal only. I am making a pact with a fey queen, I don't imagine a paper bound contract. It's more like a verbal agreement made reailty through the magic of verbal words and deals. idk. I suppose contracts could be reflavored but it still feels weird.

When I think of what inspires Thaumaturges and connections to pacts, I imagine John Constantine saying "Alithos the first hand of Calthor, you *insert foul language* I call upon you to fulfill your end of the bargain." or "We had a deal!" With the just calling of the name of who you are bonded has them summoning their aid in whatever way they promises. (probably wasnt worded the best) so even then I'm not sure if the pacts fulfill on that fluff.

[Golurkcanfly]

pixierose wrote:

I like the ideas of the pacts of feats. It seems on brand but I can understand why people would want them separate.

The difference at least to me is that Contracts are a type of pacts but not all pacts are contracts IMO.

Contracts feel like a very formal, sign on the dotted line kind of thing, while at least to me Pacts can be more subtle and definitely more verbal only. I am making a pact with a fey queen, I don't imagine a paper bound contract. It's more like a verbal agreement made reailty through the magic of verbal words and deals. idk. I suppose contracts could be reflavored but it still feels weird.

When I think of what inspires Thaumaturges and connections to pacts, I imagine John Constantine saying "Alithos the first hand of Calthor, you *insert foul language* I call upon you to fulfill your end of the bargain." or "We had a deal!" With the just calling of the name of who you are bonded has them summoning their aid in whatever way they promises. (probably wasnt worded the best) so even then I'm not sure if the pacts fulfill on that fluff.

I don't think the Contract items are necessarily physical contracts. It's just the name of the current system and the examples we have so far, and having a physical contract doesn't seem to actually be part of the system. It's like how you can have Soul Seeds that are intangible Relics.

The Contracts also already have variance in their structure like the Pacts, with the AP and Legends Contracts having different structures (though I personally prefer the AP Contracts). So even Pacts that might not necessarily fall into the clean structure could be made into Contracts.

[pixierose]

Contracts seem to at least have to be a physical item based off of the Contract trait. But I suppose that doenst mean it has to be. Aloterally school, a special leaf or petal from a fae. A scar on the body, some other bauble or doodad.

[Sanityfaerie]

The thing I see...
- Pacts involve a more profound investment of player resources. Class feats aren't cheap.
- Contracts are far less guaranteed, and probably less favorable overall.

I like the idea that these things should be contracts rather than class feats - there's nothing fundamental to the Thaumaturge that says that you have to be one in order to get some powerful entity to make a contract with you. At the same time, it makes sense that the Thaumaturge should have better access to such things. So... maybe a sort of crafting feat? Like, the thaumaturge knows where to go and who to talk to to get a contract or two. Make a ritual of contract binding, and then give the thaumaturge a feat (or a few feats) that make the whole system more accessible and/or beneficial. So... you don't need to be a thaumaturge in order to work with this stuff... but it might be useful to have one as a friend.

[Golurkcanfly]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

The thing I see...

- Pacts involve a more profound investment of player resources. Class feats aren't cheap.
- Contracts are far less guaranteed, and probably less favorable overall.

I like the idea that these things should be contracts rather than class feats - there's nothing fundamental to the Thaumaturge that says that you have to be one in order to get some powerful entity to make a contract with you. At the same time, it makes sense that the Thaumaturge should have better access to such things. So... maybe a sort of crafting feat? Like, the thaumaturge knows where to go and who to talk to to get a contract or two. Make a ritual of contract binding, and then give the thaumaturge a feat (or a few feats) that make the whole system more accessible and/or beneficial. So... you don't need to be a thaumaturge in order to work with this stuff... but it might be useful to have one as a friend.

A crafting feat or other "access" feat plus some unique benefits it can get (either as part of that first feat or as a separate feat) would be really nice. Like a Thaumaturge can break the contract other ways or can subvert the downsides that could come from them.

[GGSigmar]

I agree with the op.

[vagrant-poet]

I think Thaumaturges are a natural place for them to be, but would love to see an archetype with the same rarity as Thaumaturge that gives you a pact, and lets you expand on pacts somehow, one that could be appealing to a thaumaturge who wants even more pacts, or let a non-thaumaturge also play with the cool of pacts.

[Uchuujin]

Agreed. We already have infernal contracts that fill this design space without using up valuable feat space for the thaumaturge, or locking other PCs out of them.

[HumbleGamer]

I don't want oaths to be cla... oh wait...

Let's give baseline oaths for champions ( or, at least, move them to lvl 1 feat ), and put pacts not class feature but feat.

E

[QuidEst]

Just chiming in with my disagreement here, even if I'm the odd one out.

1. Spending a class feat allows for something more balanced, while still having favorable terms in-character. As a GM, I know these are fair to give the player, unlike the contract items.

2. It's very thematic for the class to have some sort contract access, and to be good at securing particularly good terms in-character. Contracts still exist for other classes, this one just has a few more options.

3. Greater access. "Uncommon class feat" is a lot easier to get approval on than "rare item subsystem".