Hawkeye on Disney Plus

[Thomas Seitz]

Yeah start at new thread for Spidey for right now.

I'm pretty sure Kazi isn't a relative, if only because it doesn't seem like he's a) Hispanic or b) Native American. But I could be wrong. As for him being the informant...I mean MAYBE... Dunno. Also not sure Clint IS being overshadowed...mostly because while it is his CODENAME in the title, he's far from the only Hawkeye in this show. I mean...hello Kate?!!

Also weird about Wolf's hearing...

As for Jessica Jones doing a cameo or whatever in She-Hulk...eh, not sure I'd be that stoked as much as having Daredevil/Matt Murdock show up. But who knows?

I DO know we might no longer have a rich white boy as the Iron Fist (I mean besides Colleen Wing) in the comics...so maybe that might mean we get a new Iron fist in the MCU too.

[DeathQuaker]

Count me as someone who would be heavily stoked to see Jessica Jones show up in She-Hulk or anywhere else (I'd love for her to meet Captain Marvel given their friendship in the comics). I totally understand why folks want to see Murdock show up in She-Hulk because of the lawyer thing (and they have a great camaraderie in the comics), but JJ is a PI who is often hired by lawyers AND she has had some great appearances in She-Hulk stories in the comics so it makes perfect sense for her to be there.

Plus personally, I think Daredevil (series and character) is vastly overrated. There. I said it. The best thing about Daredevil the show was...

Vincent D'Onofrio as Kingpin.

Who is the person who is actually in this television show we are supposed to be talking about. :) And I cannot WAIT to see him on Wednesday.

Gah how are they going to wrap everything up in one more episode?

[Greylurker]

I am kind of hoping we see Jeri in She-Hulk, as a Rival on the Lawyer side of things.

[Mark Hoover 330]

So, I wanna go back to Kazi for a second, and specifically to Maya asking him a question at the end of the last episode. Something that comes up on a lot of YouTube movie critique channels I watch is this trope of "this is the first time you're having this conversation?" While I usually just let that go as part of being a willing audience member, it really stuck with me this past episode.

After years or swearing vengeance against the man that killed your father and being in the life of your father's number 2 guy, you waited ALL this time to ask him why he wasn't there, at a meeting he SHOULD'VE attended and was in town for, until your arch enemy brought it up? Like, does that strike anyone else as odd, or am I just being too nitpicky here?

[Marc Radle]

I think the point was that it never occurred to her before, or that she hadn’t made the connection, until Clint told her point blank about the informant. At that point, things clicked in her mind enough that she felt she needed to ask him point black and look in his eyes for his reaction …

[Aberzombie]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

So, I wanna go back to Kazi for a second, and specifically to Maya asking him a question at the end of the last episode. Something that comes up on a lot of YouTube movie critique channels I watch is this trope of "this is the first time you're having this conversation?" While I usually just let that go as part of being a willing audience member, it really stuck with me this past episode.

After years or swearing vengeance against the man that killed your father and being in the life of your father's number 2 guy, you waited ALL this time to ask him why he wasn't there, at a meeting he SHOULD'VE attended and was in town for, until your arch enemy brought it up? Like, does that strike anyone else as odd, or am I just being too nitpicky here?

I don’t think you’re being too nit picky. The same thought crossed my brain.

[DeathQuaker]

Greylurker wrote:

I am kind of hoping we see Jeri in She-Hulk, as a Rival on the Lawyer side of things.

In theory that would be cool, but given we last saw her dying of ALS I'm not sure if she's coming back. Unless her quest to use access to superpowers to cure herself continues, which is possible.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

So, I wanna go back to Kazi for a second, and specifically to Maya asking him a question at the end of the last episode. Something that comes up on a lot of YouTube movie critique channels I watch is this trope of "this is the first time you're having this conversation?" While I usually just let that go as part of being a willing audience member, it really stuck with me this past episode.

After years or swearing vengeance against the man that killed your father and being in the life of your father's number 2 guy, you waited ALL this time to ask him why he wasn't there, at a meeting he SHOULD'VE attended and was in town for, until your arch enemy brought it up? Like, does that strike anyone else as odd, or am I just being too nitpicky here?

I need to rewatch it but I recall him saying something that suggested he had an answer to where he was that she had previously accepted, but was now second guessing because of what Clint said to her.

Also, IIRC she was fairly young when her father died, and if Kazi swooped into offer her comfort--which he seems to have done quite successfull--she may have been thrown off his scent. Given he is one of the few people who can fully communicate with her, she needed to trust him and was more likely to turn a blind eye, especially as she seems to be someone who favors personal connections and feelings over tactical thinking.

[dirtypool]

She was no more than five years younger, so I’m not sure that’s much of a narrative reason.

[BigNorseWolf]

Well, she did have a very ready target. it's not like she needed to know who killed them: Ronin killed them.

[dirtypool]

Yeah, wasn’t much need to ask those kinds of questions. Ronin did it, she watched him do it.

[Quark Blast]

Yep, she's not really the 3D chess sort. More the punch them in the face with a dagger sort.

[Thomas Seitz]

I think it's a nit picky, but then again A-zombie and I rarely agree on stuff...

Also I don't think the best thing about the Daredevil Netflix was D'Onofrio, even if he was great in the role. To me, that was Bernthal's Punisher. If we're going to accept that Matt isn't the best in his show...which I doubt.

As for how they wrap it up in one episode...who knows?!! Maybe we'll get a cliff hanger and a second season. I mean it wouldn't be THAT terrible right?

[Feros]

I thought about how to wrap things up, and it occurred to me that Yelena is already primed to be resolved with just talking to Clint after her conversation with Kate. She actually took Kate's advise and looked into who hired her, and did not like what she found.

The situation with Maya is the same: her encounter with Clint is making her rethink what happened that night. She can have her story resolved by talking to the big man.

Two tense conversations would leave the rest of the episode on Kate, Jack, Clint, and Kate's mother. It can be done. There is sure to be some action (I doubt all of this will resolve without a fight or two), but most of the story is primed for resolution.

Here's hoping they stick the landing! :)

[Mark Hoover 330]

*in sign language to Kazi, 5 years ago* "Man, I can't believe that Ronin guy killed my dad! I'm gonna hunt him down. I was outside, saw him through a window. You were there, and you're alive now... did you get a good look at him, maybe could ID that punk under the mask?"

Kazi: no, I wasn't there

Maya: you were my dad's right hand! Why weren't you there to protect him?

Kazi: I was... stuck in traffic... lost track of time... it was an earthquake... floods... LOCUSTS! IT WASN'T MY FAULT I SWEAR TO GODDDD!!! *that last bit was paraphrased from The Blues Brothers*

End scene.

Anyway, my point is that yes, she KNEW who killed her dad years ago but I was genuinely surprised that in her grief, during the anger phase, she never snapped at Kazi for 5 years, asking why he wasn't there that night. And DQ, I'll have to go back too now and rewatch but I thought Kazi kind of stammered a bit, like he was nervously relating the reason to Maya... as if it was the first time they'd talked, but I could be wrong (and, let's face it; usually I am).

[dirtypool]

She didn’t need to ask if he was there, because having been there herself she knows that he wasn’t.

Knowing that Ronin was the culprit she had no reason to question the fact that he wasn’t there as anything other than innocent until Clint challenged her understanding of the events of that evening.

[Thomas Seitz]

What dirtypool said.

[Feros]

Wow. Just...wow. All resolved, all done, Echo set up for her series...just wow. It was so much better than I thought it was going to be!!

[DeathQuaker]

Once again I doubted for no reason. I do wish we had gotten to see the big guy maybe an episode sooner, but it was still good to see him.

Spoiler for the episode:

It's sad when I am screaming at the screen, "No don't shoot him!" not because he is a good person but just because he's such a good villain we need him for more than just one episode. But the pan-away so we don't see the details of the shot... and what I've read online about what happens when Echo shoots him in the comics, I'm hoping we will get more of Kingpin, probably in Echo's miniseries.

I'm glad in the end that Eleanor was just Eleanor and not a secret supervillain reveal. The whole thing between her and Kate was well done.

And Clint and Yelena likewise, they did handle that well.

Denouement was excellent.

There is an end credits scene. It is... a fuller version of a scene we see earlier in the show, not a hint to what is coming next. I loved it; YMMV.

[Marc Radle]

Yeah, this is now my second favorite MCU / Disney+ series, just a hair below WandaVision.

Hawkeye was excellent! My wife and I both LOVE Kate Bishop and Yalena and we can’t wait to see them both in the You g Avengers as the new Hawkeye and Black Widow!!!

[Feros]

Owl and Van. I laughed so hard, I debeveraged! :D

[Aberzombie]

An adequate finale. Overall, I think Falcon and Winter Soldier is still the best series they’ve done, but this was decent. It had a little to much goofy humor and musical crap for my tastes.

Some thoughts…

Spoiler:

By all rights, Kingpin should have killed Kate Bishop. But….Hollywood. Still, it was cool to see him being such a badass. And he even had the cane.

I really hope they didn’t kill Fisk in the end. It’d be a stupid mistake. I think Maya could potentially have a really good spinoff. I just hope they do more with her powers.

I started off thinking Jack was a smarmy ass, but I kind of liked him. This episode cemented my like. Loved the scene with him and the kid. He needs his own spin-off series as Swordsman. I’d watch the shit out of that.

Looks like it’s confirmed that Mrs. Barton was indeed a SHIELD agent. And if the number on the watch is anything to go by, she was Agent 19, which was once the designation of Mockingbird.

It saddens me to think we might not see Clint as Hawkeye anymore, but I’m always supportive of “passing the torch”, even if I don’t plan on following the new character.

[Thomas Seitz]

So I guess we almost got what A-zombie wanted (which to me is a good thing we didn't) and more what DQ wanted. (Which honestly what I wanted)

Also I don't think this is end of D'Onofrio as Kingpin. Maybe this might set up *GASP* Actual DEFENDERS!! I mean as a movie more than TV show...but who knows.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

This was a good show overall. Yep. I could have used an actual end credit scene that gave us a preview of an upcoming movie or show though, but you can't have everything. :)

Edit: and the finale needed an extra hour of Fisk, just saying... ;)

[Greylurker]

What is next anyway?

Moon Knight, She-Hulk or Ms. Marvel?

[Mark Hoover 330]

With all due respect to the very excellent folks posting in this thread, I have to politely disagree with the assessment of the big man in this episode.

Spoiler:

I get that Kingpin in the comics is ALL muscle and a disciplined fighter and so on... but he's NOT superhuman. Thant's WHY he's so cool as a villain; he has more in common with Lex Luthor than Bane. Also, nearly EVERYTHING he does in the comics, cartoons, and Netflix series involves Fisk operating with a level of discretion, cunning and manipulation that rivals the greatest mastermind villains throughout fiction.

In short, this isn't a big brute that walks down 5th avenue in a Hawaiian shirt, tears through some rent-a-guards, and rips open a car door in potential view of dozens of partygoers.

Also... the arrow stuck INTO him and he just ignored it? Like... what? You can say "body armor" all you want but the arrow STUCK, so there was some level of penetration through his armored clothing. Once again, he's not superhuman; Kingpin is essentially an Olympic level athlete and bodybuilder with a knack for manipulation and subterfuge.

So, he's shot with an arrow, rammed with a car hard enough to throw him through a plate glass window, his HEAD by the way was completely exposed during that collision and he was surprised by the impact... and he shrugs it off without a single scratch? Not even cuts on his face from where it WENT THROUGH THE GLASS?

Now I'll admit, I haven't played the Spider Man PS4 game with Kingpin in it, nor did I read Fraction's series that this show was drawn from, so maybe in those instances Mr Fisk is a metahuman or something, but if you're going to use the same actor from the Netflix show, essentially porting that character into the MCU, shouldn't the portrayal resemble SOMETHING of the man who was 5 steps ahead of Daredevil at every turn, smart enough to avoid prison for decades, and did all his fighting in places where it would've been impossible for him to be witnessed, save by those who were loyal to him?

And maybe, I don't know, if the Netflix stuff featured him grunting in pain or getting bloodied up when DD hit him in the face with some brass knuckles, maybe give him ANY kind of reaction to the events mentioned in the spoiler above? I was disappointed with the entirety of Kingpin in the finale last night. It was like we were getting the dumbed down, cartoonish version of a guy that's supposed to be a bogeyman to even major heroes in Marvel like Spider Man, Daredevil, and so on.

As to the rest of it, it was good, silly fun. The TSM guy that stopped, mid fight, to thank Kate for her dating advice; the inclusion of "bro" in every TSM's dialogue; the van and owl bit. It felt like something the kids would enjoy.

Because it was so light hearted and silly, it was hard to get invested in all the endings. Kate and Elanor happened b/c it had to. Echo is set up for her series again, b/c she needed to be. The only plot point that really got me was Hawkeye and Yelena. That whole exchange, the way Clint finally got through to her... it gave me a bit of a lip quiver, I won't lie.

Anyway, I guess I'm just realizing that the MCU can get silly (Ant Man, some Spider Man stuff, Guardians) but there's usually some nuance, some poignant adult themes throughout, and that's what I really come to see. Clint and Yelena had that in this series, but the rest of it, for me, just felt like fluff and explosions. So far Hawkeye is the "Netflix's Iron Fist" of the MCU series' they've aired so far.

[Aberzombie]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

With all due respect to the very excellent folks posting in this thread, I have to politely disagree with the assessment of the big man in this episode.

** spoiler omitted **

Now I'll admit, I haven't played the Spider Man PS4 game with Kingpin in it, nor did I read Fraction's series that this show was drawn from, so maybe in those instances Mr Fisk is a metahuman or something, but if you're going to use the same actor from the Netflix show, essentially porting that character into the MCU, shouldn't the portrayal resemble SOMETHING of the man who was 5 steps ahead of Daredevil at every turn, smart enough to avoid prison for decades, and did all his fighting in places where it would've been impossible for him to be witnessed, save by those who were loyal to him?...

I cannot disagree with you, especially on the car thing. That was a bit too much. And it was certainly far more “in the open” than he’s usually known to operate.

[DeathQuaker]

Mark, in the comics, Fisk survives a point-blank headshot to the face. His abilities appear no different here than they are in the comics--extremely strong and tough, dancing the line between peak human and superhuman (and some mesh-based protective armors would grab and cause an arrow to stick; that's how they work). His Hawaiian shirt is also comics canon, from The Amazing Spider-Man: Family Business #1.

He was grunting in pain during the Hawkeye fight scenes so I feel like you and I were watching a different show. He wasn't that hurt because Kate is a tiny girl compared to him and just can't do that much damage.

Daredevil--which if you haven't seen, I strongly recommend you do, his portrayal is much as you describe--always depicted him as peak-level strong and tough, and he doesn't get involved directly in things unless pushed. (In fact as with most of the Netflix shows, Daredevil cleaves closer to gritty and realistic than highly supernatural. If you want street-level, minimal superpowers Marvel, the Netflix shows are for you.).

It seemed clear here that the reason he got involved was because of key things hitting the fan--Eleanor deciding to leave, Maya also betraying him. I'll be honest--I have not read a LOT of comics with him in it, but based on what I do know and how he's been portrayed on Daredevil, I do not think it is not out of character for him to take these kind of things personally and want to deal with them personally. Maybe because I've seen Daredevil I know this is not the norm for how he behaves (but still within his way of operating), and as I mentioned I do wish we had seen him an episode earlier or so; my reasoning is indeed because we could have seen more of his manipulations behind the scenes first--but they opted for the big reveal. If you stop and think about it though--the first five episodes, all these things happening, the auction, Ronin being hunted, Yelena being hired... all of that WAS Fisk doing this behind the scenes. The fact that we DON'T see him show up until the end is entirely in keeping with how he tends to work--in the shadows, manipulative, letting other people do his dirty work. The whole point is it was *cue music* Wilson Fisk ALL ALOOOONG! And we don't see him until the final hour. How is that not anything but the way Fisk is supposed to be?

PS: Fisk was not in the Fraction Hawkeye series that I can recall (but I am perhaps not recalling correctly--I read it and know I loved it but can't remember the actual plot very well), but I highly, highly, highly recommend finding it in trade and giving it a read (or if you do digital comics, seeking it out that way).

[dirtypool]

It’s hard to describe one unified version of the Kingpin. Sure he is the sinister, shadowy, discrete plotter with control over so much of the world around him that Frank Miller turned him into during his run on Daredevil.

He’s also the hothead who brawled Spider-Man in broad daylight in the streets of New York. He’s also the character that Runaways treated as a complete joke, as if teenagers could easily waylay what Spider-Man and Daredevil could not.

He might not have been your preferred Kingpin, but there wasn’t anything in the episode that exclusively wasn’t Fisk.

[JoelF847]

Loved the finale and series. It was great having a more fun MCU entry after some pretty serious ones lately. It reminded me some of the Ant Man movies, not just because of the Pym arrows.

As for Kingpin being a bit out of character, I think that's intentional, and the reason why is going to be a plot point somewhere else. First theory is that he's a Skrull (or super Skrull even) and we'll find out about it in the upcoming Secret Invasion. Definitely a good person to take the place of if you want to establish behind the scenes power. It could also just as easily be one of a dozen ways he's been enhanced - maybe he got some Powerbroker super serum before Falcon and Winter Soldier, he certainly could have afforded it. All I know is that Marvel doesn't do anything by mistake or accident in the MCU.

[Mark Hoover 330]

You're all right of course and my assessment is purely based on my own opinions. I was a Miller fan back in the day so I suppose my version of the character is more in line with the Netflix Daredevil series. Incidentally Quaker of Death I HAVE seen the series a couple times. The few times Fisk gets physical in those episodes, it's behind closed doors, in the living room of an otherwise empty house, or in his private residence. There WAS one confrontation with DD in an alleyway, but it was just the two of them there.

Finally in those scenes, when Murdock hits him with a steel baton or handwraps, his face bloodies, he growls in anger and there are a couple moments where Fisk is stunned.

Spoiler:

In the show last night, Kingpin careens through the display window of an FAO Schwartz at speed, head very much exposed to trauma; not a single cut and he isn't slowed at all.

If I can divorce myself from comic book expectations, there's still the fact that this is D'Onofrio's Kingpin. Yes, this isn't Netflix but unless this guy turns out to be a Skrull or a Variant then I'm going to think of him as the Netflix version of the character.

Whatever, this is semantics and personal opinion. I'm sorry if I've cheesed anyone off with my take of the show and the finale. I think this ending just got a little TOO cartoony/action movie hero for me.

DQ, I'm a "like the feel of a book in my hands" type so I'm going try and find the trade on Slamazon for a holiday gift to myself. I've seen all the comparisons to the comics on the Tubes of U and I know it's supposed to be a phenomenal story.

[BigNorseWolf]

Feros wrote:

Owl and Van. I laughed so hard, I debeveraged! :D

They SHOULD be ok. You keep your strength when you're shrunked, so when the owl tries to eat them it should notice that the furless mice hit WAY harder than they should and go find some pizza rat to nom on.

[dirtypool]

Re: Van folk - Scott needed to wear a suit to survive the process of shrinking. While I appreciate the gag, by Ant Man logic those guys did not make it.

Re: Kingpin - his car door assault in Daredevil Season 1 was very much not behind closed doors. Fisk is very brazen in that series when he feels that he is in complete control, as he does here in the Hawkeye series.

While I’d love to presume that this is in continuity with what came before - we last saw Netflix Kingpin going back down for a life sentence. It’d take some serious logic twisting to square the circle of his freedom.

I’m fine with the Netflix series getting the same loose acknowledgement in the MCU that the Marvel Knights books got. Sure all those things happened, just maybe not the way you remember

[Marc Radle]

dirtypool wrote:

Re: Van folk - Scott needed to wear a suit to survive the process of shrinking. While I appreciate the gag, by Ant Man logic those guys did not make it.

Re: Kingpin - his car door assault in Daredevil Season 1 was very much not behind closed doors. Fisk is very brazen in that series when he feels that he is in complete control, as he does here in the Hawkeye series.

While I’d love to presume that this is in continuity with what came before - we last saw Netflix Kingpin going back down for a life sentence. It’d take some serious logic twisting to square the circle of his freedom.

I’m fine with the Netflix series getting the same loose acknowledgement in the MCU that the Marvel Knights books got. Sure all those things happened, just maybe not the way you remember

That’s not entirely true. There are a number of cases where they shrunk down without needing the suit. Off the top of my head, the big car chase in Ant Man & the Wasp comes to mind - Hope and Luis were driving a sport car outfitted with Pym tech (I forget the exact details) that they shrunk down and back up a number of times during the chase and they were not in suits …

[Quark Blast]

Aberzombie wrote:

An adequate finale. Overall, I think Falcon and Winter Soldier is still the best series they’ve done, but this was decent. It had a little to much goofy humor and musical crap for my tastes.

Some thoughts…

** spoiler omitted **

Liked your thoughts.

I'd say Wanda Vision was the best art but this one was the most fun - in a shift-brain-to-park sort of way.

My problem with FatWS was that it ended right where I figured things were before the series was a thing.
So Falcon becomes the next Cap? Huh, would've never guessed that. /sarcasm

[dirtypool]

Marc Radle wrote:

That’s not entirely true. There are a number of cases where they shrunk down without needing the suit. Off the top of my head, the big car chase in Ant Man & the Wasp comes to mind - Hope and Luis were driving a sport car outfitted with Pym tech (I forget the exact details) that they shrunk down and back up a number of times during the chase and they were not in suits …

Okay, point taken. In Ant Man you either needed to be wearing a suit or in an enclosed structure outfitted with Pym tech. The Bros had neither.

[JoelF847]

dirtypool wrote:

While I’d love to presume that this is in continuity with what came before - we last saw Netflix Kingpin going back down for a life sentence. It’d take some serious logic twisting to square the circle of his freedom.

I’m fine with the Netflix series getting the same loose acknowledgement in the MCU that the Marvel Knights books got. Sure all those things happened, just maybe not the way you remember

A fair amount of time has passed, including the Blip. I don't think it's unrealistic to assume Kingpin got out of jail and back on top during that time. We just didn't get to see it.

[Thomas Seitz]

DQ,

Fraccion's Hawkeye run had 0 Kingpin involvement. I forget what Wilson was up to, but I don't think he was involved with anything criminal at the time.

[dirtypool]

Sure, because life sentences are often commuted after just five years served.

I mean these are the threads where we had to discuss the exacting nature of the ethics of law enforcement and military service as they pertained to a man with an articulated retractable set of wings, the correctness of the action of using an old enemy to track a new enemy; or the specific reasons why the forthright soldier was not able to lift the magic hammer on his first try but was several films later indeed worthy.

But a popular villain starting his new series tenure not in the same legal predicament we left him in at the end of his last series… why bat an eye?

[JoelF847]

dirtypool wrote:

Sure, because life sentences are often commuted after just five years served.

I mean these are the threads where we had to discuss the exacting nature of the ethics of law enforcement and military service as they pertained to a man with an articulated retractable set of wings, the correctness of the action of using an old enemy to track a new enemy; or the specific reasons why the forthright soldier was not able to lift the magic hammer on his first try but was several films later indeed worthy.

But a popular villain starting his new series tenure not in the same legal predicament we left him in at the end of his last series… why bat an eye?

Got out on appeal? Especially if key witnesses were dusted and couldn't testify? I'd think a lot of weird court stuff could have happened due to that.

Broke out?

Cut a deal to help provide stability to the city/country during the chaos of the Blip? (wouldn't be a smart move by the government, but that alone is pretty realistic that they'd made dumb decisions.)

[thejeff]

JoelF847 wrote:

dirtypool wrote:

Sure, because life sentences are often commuted after just five years served.

I mean these are the threads where we had to discuss the exacting nature of the ethics of law enforcement and military service as they pertained to a man with an articulated retractable set of wings, the correctness of the action of using an old enemy to track a new enemy; or the specific reasons why the forthright soldier was not able to lift the magic hammer on his first try but was several films later indeed worthy.

But a popular villain starting his new series tenure not in the same legal predicament we left him in at the end of his last series… why bat an eye?

Got out on appeal? Especially if key witnesses were dusted and couldn't testify? I'd think a lot of weird court stuff could have happened due to that.

Broke out?

Cut a deal to help provide stability to the city/country during the chaos of the Blip? (wouldn't be a smart move by the government, but that alone is pretty realistic that they'd made dumb decisions.)

Made a complex legal argument that his life sentence ended with his death with the Snap and couldn't be resumed after he returned to life?

[dirtypool]

Those suggestions would all be the logic twisting I referred in my earlier post.

[JoelF847]

dirtypool wrote:

Those suggestions would all be the logic twisting I referred in my earlier post.

So you're saying that getting off on appeal, something which happens frequently in real life is logic twisting?

[dirtypool]

Yes when the crux of season 3 of Daredevil revolved around his appeal with his whole appellate case crashing down around his ears in the finale during the smack down at the wedding.

The point of the original comment was that any justification would have to be you twisting logic around to justify something the writers weren’t concerned with justifying. Inventing head canon to explain away the unexplained.

Head canon is not easier to justify than just calling it a soft reboot and moving on.

[CapeCodRPGer]

After seeing scenes from the Rogers musical, I want a Spiderman musical.

Wait a minute.

[BigNorseWolf]

Hoping rocky is ok not sure how national that story was or if people remember.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Dirtypool wrote:

Re: Kingpin - his car door assault in Daredevil Season 1 was very much not behind closed doors. Fisk is very brazen in that series when he feels that he is in complete control, as he does here in the Hawkeye series.

Again, I want to tread lightly and proceed with both respect and caution here, but the murder of Anatoly in S1 of DD took place outside under a bridge. It happened late at night, after Wilson and Vanessa's first date got interrupted. The area looks fairly deserted, and the version of Hell's Kitchen presented in the series ignores even violent crime to begin with. The only light we see illuminating the melee is from the bridge above and the headlights of Fisk's vehicles, but none of this ever clearly reveals Wilson's face. So... for all intents and purposes Fisk was only in danger of being witnessed by his own men.

In public he demurred as the put upon legitimate business man, trying to save the city. He went to jail, then reformed that image of himself before being put away a second time in DD S3. I don't know what image he cultivated post snap, but that's the version of Kingpin we were given in the DD series.

D'Onofrio confirmed in an interview this Kingpin is the same character he'd been playing. Yes, he loses his temper a lot and YES, he's violent, but the whole point of Kingpin in season's 1-3 of the DD show is that he DIDN'T do those things publicly. He was highly sensitive to being embarrassed, to maintaining his image, to not giving the feds anything to hold him on. In Hawkeye ep 6 he walks down the street in plain view of several witnesses as mayhem and first responders are erupting and rips a car door off, tries to drag a woman from the vehicle, and then gets blasted through a plate glass window.

Its just... its a departure is all. It was tough to take.

[dirtypool]

D’Onofrio confirmed that he approached them as if they were the same iteration of the Kingpin, those are two different statements. One he can make with authority, the other he can’t. In the same interview when asked about the Rolex he admitted he has only slightly more information than the audience does.

[BigNorseWolf]

Or as his lawyers will put it,

My client saw his business partner staring in horror at a chaufer with his throat slit, days after her fiancee had gone to prison for murdering someone with a sword and gotten out.

He called to her several times, and when she didn't move He then opened the door to make sure it was Ok, her psychologically disturbed daughter (who had been thrown out of college for using dangerous weapons on a college campus and leveled a building months prior and JUST knocked over THE rockefeller center tree..... proceeded to shoot him with said bow and arrow that she was running around the street with.

Why yes, he would like to thank stark brand businessproof clothing for his continued existence. But as anyone can clearly see, it doesn't cover his head.

At that point my client managed to defend himself against lethal weaponry, (again, thanks stark!) and her daughter was left without a mark on her that wasn't there from the business dinner she had just done breaking up and her foray into urban forestry. Yes my client is a large male, but he's aproaching Se..erm.. Sixty with **long list of doctors testifying to aislements** and a burst of adreneline only gets you so far...

[Thomas Seitz]

All I know is D'Onofrio and Cox (along with their characters) are at least part of the MCU. That means I REALLY want Mike Colter's Luke Cage along with Daughters of the Dragons.

[Mark Hoover 330]

@ Thomas Seitz: totally agree and fingers crossed. One thing I will never get from Disney though is more hard drinking, hard living Jessica Jones. Something tells me the House of Mouse will never let her brand of hero be fully realized on their dime. Still, even seeing a sanitized version of JJ would be cool.

And hey, who, besides me, is also rooting for the return of Iron Fist played by Finn Jones? *crickets* I'm guessing it's still just me then?