1: When you become your eidolon while you have buffs active on you, do you keep them after transforming?
2: If you are in a stance then become your eidolon, are you still in the stance after you become your eidolon?
From reading the ability I cant see why you wouldnt after "you become it", provided you dont attempt to use any activated abilities from said effects.
Just thought of another one:
3: Sneak attacks as a rogue with the summoner mc archetype to gain meld into eidolon?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I had questions about what abilities an eidolon could use while the summoner was melded, but I think I've answered them as I thought about the question.
or use other abilities that require you, and not the eidolon, to act.
At its most conservative, this would mean the Eidolon could only use actions available to all PCs (strike, stride, step, release, take cover, etc.), all untrained skill actions, all trained skill actions for skills it is trained in, and any abilities it possesses on its own.
This would mean no class abilities from the summoner multiclassing (e.g., rage, hunt prey, monk stances, or lay on hands), no trained skill actions for skills only the summoner is trained in (dual studies), and no skill feat actions. Plus spellcasting, which was specifically called out.
Do I have that right?
That leaves non-actions like sneak attack in question.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The only point of Merge into Eidolon is to remove a target from the fight. Essentially, your character is gone and only the Eidolon is present. Anything tied to your character is therefore off the table.
This is good if you want to play the Eidolon only and not bother with the spellcasting aspect of Summoner.
Sneak attack requires you to act (to make a Strike).
Good point. Thank you.
This is good if you want to play the Eidolon only and not bother with the spellcasting aspect of Summoner.
While I do agree the benefits of melding are not overwhelming and more--probably far more--than you give up, it's not quite like that. You can play in essentially two phases. A Bruce Banner for social or investigation phases and a Hulk for combat. You cast spells as Bruce Banner.
I was hoping to use Alchemist dedication to move some of Bruce's power over to the Hulk side.
They slapped an item bonus on the AC, which negates that some.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sneak attack requires you to act (to make a Strike).
Abilities that do not require you to act and that do not change your stats should work IMO.
Good point on sneak attack, I edited that one into the post on the 59th minute of the post being up so it was a bit of a rushed thought.
Also im aware you cant act to activate a stance or spell AFTER becoming an eidolon and that the list of stances and spells that dont affect only your statistics or provide you with actions is very limited. Might be fun trying to find them though for this purpose.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sneak attack requires you to act (to make a Strike).
Abilities that do not require you to act and that do not change your stats should work IMO.
Good point on sneak attack, I edited that one into the post on the 59th minute of the post being up so it was a bit of a rushed thought.
Also im aware you cant act to activate a stance or spell AFTER becoming an eidolon and that the list of stances and spells that dont affect only your statistics or provide you with actions is very limited. Might be fun trying to find them though for this purpose.
You misunderstand the ability. The Summoner is essentially in Stasis. They can't be targeted at all, they can't act at all (Except to Manifest their Eidolon, which unmanifests it), and any abilities the Summoner has can't be used, even automatic ones, because the Summoner isn't even there. The Eidolon is the only creature there, and can only use abilities it would normally be able to use.
When you Meld, the Eidolon gets no bonuses, the only perk of this feat is to remove the Summoner from the fight while the Eidolon gets to stay (and go wherever it wants because the Summoner is melded with them). You can't take a bunch of Feats that make the Summoner stronger, then Merge with the Eidolon and expect the Eidolon to suddenly have access to all the Summoner's abilities.
You misunderstand the ability. The Summoner is essentially in Stasis. They can't be targeted at all, they can't act at all (Except to Manifest their Eidolon, which unmanifests it), and any abilities the Summoner has can't be used, even automatic ones, because the Summoner isn't even there. The Eidolon is the only creature there, and can only use abilities it would normally be able to use.When you Meld, the Eidolon gets no bonuses, the only perk of this feat is to remove the Summoner from the fight while the Eidolon gets to stay (and go wherever it wants because the Summoner is melded with them). You can't take a bunch of Feats that make the Summoner stronger, then Merge with the Eidolon and expect the Eidolon to suddenly have access to all the Summoner's abilities.
You misunderstand that Your character doesn't cease to exist otherwise it wouldnt have to specify what you cannot do when you use the ability. Also meld with eidolon says you can't be separately targeted while you are melded, implying you are still there and can be affected by things and affect things passively, you just cant be targeted. That comes with its own perks and drawbacks, but basing your understanding on the idea "the Summoner isn't even there" as you state, is flawed.
Granted the list of things that can carry over when using meld into eidolon is EXTREMELY limited due to the wording of the ability, but there are a rare few passive benefits which can continue to function. Off the top of my head the only things i can think of are passive effects like the stances from the marshal archetype, activated prior to using meld. Their effects are passive and affect every ally within a certain range, freshly manifested eidolon included.
Im sure there are spells that offer similar aoe effects that dont require the character to act that could similarly be activated prior to melding that would also continue to function, but again, the list would probably be quite short due to meld into eidolons restrictions.
Finally, nobody is suggesting the "Eidolon to suddenly have access to all the Summoner's abilities". Dont exaggerate in an attempt to dismiss others. I simply pointed out there is a very small collection of niche abilities that could continue to function after melding.
From what i can tell, the answers to my original post are:
1: Yes you keep them, but you cant actively use them and any boosts to your stats dont carry over to your melded eidolon. Passive aoe effects should still work provided they dont require you to act. The duration of the spells would continue to elapse while melded, and you would still be affected by them should you choose to dismiss your eidolon.
2: Yes, but most stances are designed to affect your own character and thus dont affect your melded eidolon. You would also still be affected by them should you choose to dismiss your eidolon.
3: No, your eidolon doesnt get any affects that only you would have. That was a dumb third question. You should have known better than to rush a thought out on the 59th minute of a post you big dummy.
Edit: Other abilities that can continue to function include the passive auras from the champion class, like aura of despair. Are they worth it? Eh, probably not. Im sure there's more though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With meld into eidolon you go from 2 choices
A) summoner with no eidolon
B) summoner with eidolon
To three
C) eidolon with no summoner
And honestly, I still think they couldn't have been more clear explaining the feat.
That is not at all based on the rules and entirely based on you imposing your own ideas onto what the designers wrote.
The first line of the feat states:
"Your physical form can combine with that of your eidolon, granting benefits but limiting your capabilities."
It doesnt say you cease to exist or are replaced. It says you combine with the eidolon. It then says it limits your capabilities, not removes them entirely, then lists the exact ways it limits your capabilities, including causing you to use your eidolon's statistics and preventing you from acting. The feat does exactly what it says. I understand people will generally only post here if they disagree with the conclusion at this point, but I dont understand how there are people genuinely coming up with the idea that the feat does any more or less than it says it does.
I ironically agree that they couldn't have been more clear explaining the feat. They listed exactly what it does. You combine, you merge, you meld, you dont get replaced by your eidolon, you simply cant act (except to direct it to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it) and in addition you cant be targeted separately.
I get the impression a few people glanced at the feat without fully taking in what it says and got the wrong first impression (that it somehow removes the summoner entirely) and its completely new content so that's to be expected, but the feat's text simply doesn't support that assumption.
Its worth noting that as written, while you cant be targeted separately, you absolutely can both be affected by the same environmental effects at the same time, meaning walking into lava/fire can be quite bad as both are affected. If it helps, you should think of the feat less as being replaced by your familiar and more of a Marvel Comics Venom Symbiote situation.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
When an Area of Effect spell happens, it targets all creatures in the area. It says "You can't be targeted separately" to make it clear that ONLY the Eidolon may be targeted, not both of you, for the sake of spells like Fireball.
Here are the facts of the ability:
1. You can't act, except to Unmanifest the Eidolon.
2. You don't benefit from magic items that normally benefit you and not your eidolon.
3. You can not be targeted separately from the Eidolon.
I'm not sure how you can interpret not being able to be targeted and not being able to act as what you are suggesting. If what you say is true, then as soon as you Merge with the Eidolon, all your magic items will suddenly stop working, and you would just have to stand there (since you can't act) until you Unmanifest it. It makes way more sense if the Eidolon were the one acting, and thus only benefiting from normal Eidolon stuff, while the Summoner were hidden away safe inside the Eidolon's form.
If what you say is true, then as soon as you Merge with the Eidolon, all your magic items will suddenly stop working, and you would just have to stand there (since you can't act) until you Unmanifest it. It makes way more sense if the Eidolon were the one acting, and thus only benefiting from normal Eidolon stuff, while the Summoner were hidden away safe inside the Eidolon's form.
You are literally ignoring what the feat says and what im saying. Nowhere does it say all your magic items suddenly stop working and nowhere does it say you just stand there. It doesnt say you just stand there because you are COMBINED (actual word used in the feat) with the eidolon which obviously can move.
Again, the feat is "meld" not "be replaced by". It is not a change places, as I said in my last post its functionally more akin to using your eidolon as a marvel symbiote that takes over control and uses its superpowered statistics and limiting the summoner's capabilities. The summoner is still present, as the feat says.
Furthermore hazards like fire or lava do not "target" you. Targeting is a game term for targeted effects, like single "target" spells or strikes that "target" you. Aoe spells affect all creatures in their area, a rare few may target specific creatures in an area separately, but that is not the case for all aoe effects.
Unfortunately your idea that the feat is used to create a totally safe "hideaway" for the summoner is not true.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Functionally your summoner ceases to exist. It limits your capabilities because all that's left is your Eidolon.
Except as detailed in the feat, that is clearly not the case.
Sorry i didnt reply to your earlier question by the way. To answer you, while you are "combined with your eidolon" the line of effect would be from your form as normal, in this case being your combined form. If you didnt exist (or were in some kind of an extradimensional hideaway) you would have no line of effect.
You Manifest your Eidolon, but instead of summoning it into an adjacent open space, you become it.At this point, you are gone. There is only one character, the Eidolon, remaining.
This is what your entire argument is based on and the feat does not at all support it. The feat clearly states "Your physical form can combine with that of your eidolon, granting benefits but limiting your capabilities." If the summoner is gone like you suggest, the feat would not list the ways the summoner is limited in their capabilities because there would be no need. Just because you "become" something doesnt mean you cease being everything you were before. A redhead that becomes a doctor doesnt stop being a redhead because they've become a doctor. A summoner that combines with their eidolon doesnt stop being the summoner just because they've become their own eidolon. As per the feat, they can no longer take actions as the summoner, they can only take actions as an eidolon, using their eidolon's actions and statistics.
The feat does exactly what it says. No more. No less.
You are no longer targeted separately simply because you are just one creature. You are combined. Melded. Merged. Strangely, in many ways this feat resembles a significantly more strict battle form effect in what it actually does.
As a final point, yes the stances could be viewed as potentially more dubious than the later, better examples such as aura of despair.
I'm of the opinion that ongoing effects still effecting the summoner, such as fire shield, poison, or restrained, continue to effect the summoner when they transform into their eidolon form (that is, the effects begin applying to the eidolon's stats). For example, a summoner who is at Stage 2 of poison, and is enfeebled 2 from it, would still be poisoned at stage 2, and would still be enfeebled 2 after using MwE, but would thereafter apply the penalty to the eidolon's stats block and would roll future saves against the poison using the eidolon's Fortitude save modifier.
Likewise, I would not revoke the armor and weapon rune bonuses from the eidolon under the mistaken notion that the summoner no longer exists and thus doesn't qualify as wielding or wearing anything.
. . . or use other abilities that require you, and not the Eidolon, to act.
I would expect stances would discontinue because you can no longer use the stance. The stance requires you, the summoner. The eidolon cannot maintain the stance on their own. This would include the Marshall's stance.
I'm of the opinion that ongoing effects still effecting the summoner, such as fire shield, poison, or restrained, continue to effect the summoner when they transform into their eidolon form (that is, the effects begin applying to the eidolon's stats). For example, a summoner who is at Stage 2 of poison, and is enfeebled 2 from it, would still be poisoned at stage 2, and would still be enfeebled 2 after using MwE, but would thereafter apply the penalty to the eidolon's stats block and would roll future saves against the poison using the eidolon's Fortitude save modifier.
Likewise, I would not revoke the armor and weapon rune bonuses from the eidolon under the mistaken notion that the summoner no longer exists and thus doesn't qualify as wielding or wearing anything.
As the summoner can be targeted, albeit as a summoner/eidolon that cant have its component parts targeted separately, fire shield would continue to work, yes. As for conditions, any gm would be mad to have MiE act as a cure all to everything when used or dismissed, and yes, as per how the feat works the summoner would retain his conditions after assuming his eidolon's statistics and actions, or when reverting back to his own.
Making up text to have the summoner cease to exist would indeed cause many unintended effects that are avoided by playing the feat as written. Unfortunately there are a couple of people here that dont like what the feat is written to do...
I still don't think that works because they aren't dealing with you anymore, they're dealing with your Eidolon who does not have that ability. You as the Summoner no longer have line of effect to to any of the enemies, even if it kept going.
You are still plowing along with the idea that you cease to be the summoner or you as the summoner somehow cease to exist. You are still the summoner. You are also an eidolon. You are both. You are a combination. That is what combine means. That is why the feat says you combine. You lose your ability to take actions as a summoner, but you gain the ability to take actions as an eidolon, as per the feat. You are the summoner AND the eidolon, as such you still have line of effect as you would normally. It isnt hard to get your head around, the feat does exactly what it says and no more than that. It does not create extradimensional pockets that the summoner disappears into to prevent line of effect, it simply adds the capabilities and ability to act as an eidolon while restricting MOST of the normal capabilities of the summoner.
As most buffs are directly applied to the normal statistics of the summoner and while using MiE you arent using your summoner statistics, it stands to reason that MOST buffs dont apply once you use MiE (though thats a judgement call for GMs exactly the same as it is when using battle form statistics, at least until paizo clarifies it). Enemies taking fire damage when you are hit doesnt affect your statistics, so your combined form may well retain that effect from fire shield anyway as ravingdork likely realized when they suggested the spell as a example.
1: When you become your eidolon while you have buffs active on you, do you keep them after transforming?
Yes interesting Questions. Superficially Paizo have described it well but I think we will have to walk through some cases to understand it.
you become it.
This means that there is now only one entity there. There is no physical body of the Summoner separate to the Eidolon, but instead one Summoner/Eidolon Melded Entity. I think this answer you first question: whatever effects were on you before are still on you the Melded Entity, be they poisons, conditions, buffs, spell effects. Because I see no rule which says they go away. The same will be true when it unmanifests.
This also answers your questions about what happens when you get hit with an Area of Effect spell? There is only one of you. That Melded Entity saves and takes the damage normally. There is no being hit twice by things anymore.
While Manifested in this way,
you use its statistics, and you can’t act except to direct it to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it. Since you can’t act, you can’t Cast Spells, activate or benefit from magic items that normally benefit you and not your eidolon, perform actions that have the tandem trait, or use other abilities that require you, and not the eidolon, to act.
Which says what you can't do. But its not explicit what you can do.
So magic items effects like bonuses to Perception, skills, AC and saves still work. Property and fundamental runes from handwraps or invested weapon still work. There is a limit on the weapon that you must be holding it. You could have been when you transformed. There is no action to keep holding an item infact you have to take a free action to drop it, so I think you still count as holding that weapon even when Melded.
So some items that stop working. Those that were on the Summoner that would require an activation (ie the Summoner to act) to use them. EG Bracers of Missle Defelection. Also things that have a continuous effect that is not one an Edidolon can use eg Brooch of Shielding will stop working while merged. You can't activate items, but what about items that you may have already activated. say Cloak of Elvenkind The Eidolon can't normally wear or use them, but the Summoner can. The continuous effects still apply. Clearly the Melded Entity can't interact to adjust the clasp anymore so when your environment changes you would lose the item bonus to stealth. If you already had the invisibility up when you Manifested, the effect would be surpressed, because it is not something that would have affected the Eidolon.
Sorry correction here: the limit on activating it is activate or benefit from magic items that normally benefit you and not your eidolon so the Meld can interact to adjust the Cloak of Elvenkind. Just not to draw the hood up.
But where it may get confusing would be items that cast a spell on you eg Hat of Disguise. You can't activate it anymore but the spell effect stays. Of course maybe Illusory Disguise is not going to make sense anymore if your body shape changed to much. But potentially effects like this stay.
I think it is important to note that magic item effects can go away. But if that effect was to cast a spell, the effect has gone away even if the spell still lingers.
|
|
I'm of the opinion that ongoing effects still effecting the summoner, such as fire shield, poison, or restrained, continue to effect the summoner when they transform into their eidolon form (that is, the effects begin applying to the eidolon's stats). For example, a summoner who is at Stage 2 of poison, and is enfeebled 2 from it, would still be poisoned at stage 2, and would still be enfeebled 2 after using MwE, but would thereafter apply the penalty to the eidolon's stats block and would roll future saves against the poison using the eidolon's Fortitude save modifier.
Likewise, I would not revoke the armor and weapon rune bonuses from the eidolon under the mistaken notion that the summoner no longer exists and thus doesn't qualify as wielding or wearing anything.
Hmm, yes I do believe that would be correct. The stuff already affecting you, the Summoner, would continue to work. No one was arguing that harmful effects would stop running their course, but I admit that I hadn't thought about Emanations. But remember, if the Summoner is Enfeebled, it wouldn't affect the Eidolon's attacks while Melded.
As for the Item bonuses from your Runes, that would still apply since it's a magic item that applies to both you AND your eidolon, though it's currently useless for you. As a refresher, here's the items you wear that your Eidolon benefits from:-Your eidolon increases its item bonus to AC based on your armor's armor potency rune or bracers of armor. It also gains an item bonus to its saves from the resilient rune on your armor or from your bracers of armor. Other permanent items that grant or increase item bonuses to AC and saves might convey a similar benefit, as determined by the GM.
-Your eidolon's Strikes benefit from the fundamental and property runes on your handwraps of mighty blows. Alternatively, you can Invest a magic weapon (even though magic weapons can't normally be Invested) to share its fundamental and property runes with your eidolon. You share these benefits only while you're holding the weapon, and you can have no more than one weapon invested in this way at a time. In either case, the eidolon gains only the benefits that can apply to its attacks, with the same limitations noted in handwraps of mighty blows.
Continuing on
2: If you are in a stance then become your eidolon, are you still in the stance after you become your eidolon?
From reading the ability I cant see why you wouldnt after "you become it", provided you dont attempt to use any activated abilities from said effects.
Just thought of another one:
3: Sneak attacks as a rogue with the summoner mc archetype to gain meld into eidolon?
I think this is important. If some of these abilities that the Summoner might have still work in the Meld then making a Summoner with multiclass into other Martial types may be useful. It would be a whole new category of builds and the old Synthesis Summoner would have some life in it.
So at this point maybe I'm a little biased - I want this to work.
At no stage does Meld into Eidolon say that the Summoner loses their normal abilites. It is just the ability to act, cast spells, activate certain items.
Does a Rogues ability to Sneak attack require the Rogue to act. Not really. It just happens when he strikes. Can an Eidolon do a Strike, yes.
Does the Crane Stance have anything in it that an Eidolon is forbidden to do. Not that I can see. A Summoner could qualify for it. An Eidolon has no normal way to get it but they could qualify for it. It seems balanced I don't see why there would be a need to deny it to a Meld.
What do other people think.
Suddenly, a seldom experienced sense of harmony settled over the thread, as many shared their agreements with one-another and engaged in like-minded discussion.
In regard to stances, provided they dont require the summoner to act in a certain way after being activated I can't see why they wouldnt continue to function. (Act in this case meaning to take specific actions) Looking through the stance rules doesn't appear to discount it as a possibility at any rate.
I see youve edited your post, in response, no, i dont believe effects that grant actions to the summoner work when using MiE as you cant act as a summoner when using MiE. You still exist and are present, acting as an eidolon, but you explicitly lose the ability to act as a normal character, instead taking actions only your eidolon could. Similarly sneak attack modifies your summoner actions and statistics, which you can no longer use, so that doesnt work either.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Suddenly, a seldom experienced sense of harmony settled over the thread, as many shared their agreements with one-another and engaged in like-minded discussion.
I do not agree with you at all and still don't understand why you aren't seeing the logic here. I was only agreeing that spells continue to tick when the summoner is melded.
You have made it clear you won't change your mind. I will leave my posts here so anyone reading them can come to their own conclusions.
In regard to stances, provided they dont require the summoner to act in a certain way after being activated I can't see why they wouldnt continue to function. (Act in this case meaning to take specific actions)
Because the creature who is in that stance CAN'T ACT ANYMORE. But like I said, you aren't looking at it logically so I digress.
I think this is important. If some of these abilities that the Summoner might have still work in the Meld then making a Summoner with multiclass into other Martial types may be useful. It would be a whole new category of builds and the old Synthesis Summoner would have some life in it.
So at this point maybe I'm a little biased - I want this to work.
At no stage does Meld into Eidolon say that the Summoner loses their normal abilites. It is just the ability to act, cast spells, activate certain items.
Yes, you, the Summoner, lose all ability to act, and therefore make use of any of your abilities. Your Eidolon does not have the access your abilities, as Meld doesn't give it access to them. Since the only one who can act here is the Eidolon, it's only logical that it wouldn't suddenly have your abilities. Combining the crazy unarmed attacks Eidolons get with other class abilities goes too far.
Yes, you, the Summoner, lose all ability to act, and therefor make use of any of your abilities
But it doesn't say that. It just says lose your ability to act. Any of your abilities that don't require you to act are still valid.
Example Trap Finder it is a bonus to Perception checks, AC versus traps and saves versus traps.
Are these actions? No they are bonuses to actions, and defenses, not actions.
The Summoner is now the Meld. All these things would be separately valid for the Summoner and the Eidolon to do. On what basis would the Meld lose the ability to use Trap Finder feat on the Summoner?
The only basis is if you are reading more limitations into the Meld than are stated.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Paizo intended this 1st level feat to have minor effects that technically gave what some wanted but will break the hearts of those who wanted it to be more than superficially useful. It’s Eschew Materials for Summoners.
Welcome to 2e.
The stuff already affecting you, the Summoner, would continue to work. No one was arguing that harmful effects would stop running their course, but I admit that I hadn't thought about Emanations. But remember, if the Summoner is Enfeebled, it wouldn't affect the Eidolon's attacks while Melded.
I'm not certain about the point on Enfeeblement.
I don't belieye that while melded there are two entities anymore. There is just one Meld. No Summoner, no Eidolon, just the one combined entity.
I would have Enfeebled have an impact.
Paizo intended this 1st level feat to have minor effects that technically gave what some wanted but will break the hearts of those who wanted it to be more than superficially useful. It’s Eschew Materials for Summoners.
Welcome to 2e.
Playtest statements are out of date and not necessarily relevant.
Regardless of Paizo's intentions this is a question about what they have done, not what they intended. So yes I agree these statements were made. I'm just saying what the rules actually are.
So disagree with me on the basis of the rules please.
Yes and no. It reads more like a Vemon type deal, where Eddie Brock ceases to be relevant when Venom takes the wheel. Enfeebled affects the summoner's stats, but you use the eidolon'sThe stuff already affecting you, the Summoner, would continue to work. No one was arguing that harmful effects would stop running their course, but I admit that I hadn't thought about Emanations. But remember, if the Summoner is Enfeebled, it wouldn't affect the Eidolon's attacks while Melded.I'm not certain about the point on Enfeeblement.
I don't belieye that while melded there are two entities anymore. There is just one Meld. No Summoner, no Eidolon, just the one combined entity.
I would have Enfeebled have an impact.
Enfeebled is a condition on the Summoner. The Summoner becomes the Meld. He doesn't go away, he transforms. He still has the condition on him.
This visualisation of what happens is important. Does the Summoner get replaced by the Eidolon, or does the summoner get transformed into the Eidolon. Is Meld into Eidolon like the Summoner is hiding in some extradimenional space, or is it like the Summoner is still there but in a transformed body.
If the Summoner is not there then all sorts on conditions and spell on the Summoner are surpressed and just can't be on the Eidolon. What happens to persistent damage?
Are any of the abilities of the Summoner still relevant in the Meld or not? Really all the rules say is you can't act.
So I'm inclided to think that the Summoner is still there with the Eidolon as one Entity. They are the Meld.
Choose, make your case, but it will affect quite a bit.
...combine with that of your eidolon, granting benefits but limiting your capabilities....
...While Manifested in this way, you use its statistics.
You are definitely the one using its statistics and you are definitely still present, albeit combined with the eidolon and controlling what actions to take while your normal actions are restricted.
Aoe effects emanating from the summoner should continue to passively function and may well affect the eidolon due to being in the aoe.
Similarly fire shield continues to function as the summoner and eidolon share a body and are attacked in unison (they explicity can't be targeted separately), triggering the damage.
For bonuses and penalties like the resistance granted by this spell, its hard to say what carries over to the eidolon statistics. Unlike battle forms theres nothing stating the eidolon statistics you are using cant be modified, so that is likely the case if you have any spells or conditions affecting you.
One thing im confident of is that you cant use any attacks or actions granted from your original form when melded, as that aspect of your character cannot act. This includes actions granted by feats, like the monk stances that grant unique strikes or martial feats that grant special strikes with rider effects.
Yes, given the feat clearly states that "you" (the summoner) are the one being granted the benefits and you are the one using the eidolon's statistics, whether or not you still exist (or where you are) should not be in question and therefore you wouldn't lose any persistent damage, ongoing conditions or spells (both positive or negative) that are affecting you when you assume your melded form. As your actions are limited to that of your eidolon's while you and your eidolon are combined, you cannot activate any of your previous abilities, but any passive effects or effects that you previously used remain, provided they dont require you to act. Passive class abilities that dont call for you act (not actions or reactions) remain in effect.
For example, i think sneak attack is dubious here because it calls out "if you strike". But this can be interpreted in two ways, one; it is just passive bonus damage under certain conditions and still applies, or two; it is a triggered effect reliant on you specifically acting. I can see the argument that its just bonus damage and reading any further into it is overthinking because it isnt itself a free action with a trigger or a reaction, so I'd say that at least is a gm call as to whether they believe SA qualifies as an ability that requires the summoner specifically to act, or just a bonus damage effect.
In any case, thanks to the way multiclassing archetypes work and cross class feats being limited to 1/2 level, if SA and similar are allowed, such passive effects have no real potential to "break" the game or make anything overpowered, so there is GM wiggle room on that aspect at least. (Given you're either getting summoner feats at 1/2 level or getting severely watered down versions of SA etc.)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
But it doesn't say that. It just says lose your ability to act. Any of your abilities that don't require you to act are still valid.
Example Trap Finder it is a bonus to Perception checks, AC versus traps and saves versus traps.
It was pointed out to me early in the thread and--despite my wishing it worked--I agree things like this don't work. If an effect requires you, the summoner, to do something to gain or benefit from the effect and the eidolon cannot intrinsically do it by itself, it cannot be used in the melded form.
Sneak attack requires you, the summoner, to make a Strike. The eidolon does not know how to sneak attack (if you require real world logic, think of it as trying to shout instructions to your fighter ally so that they can sneak attack).
Trap Finder requires you, the summoner, to interpret the clues you pick up on while exploring. The eidolon does not have those experiences to affect how it seeks.
The stances require you, the summoner, to be behaving in a certain way every round to generate the effect. The eidolon does not know how to initiate or maintain a stance.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry, most of this seems like sophistry to me.
I think the intent is clear. Only the Eidolon is effectively present. It can do what the Eidolon could do if the summoner was present and no more.
I think this logic carries over to effects. If the summoner was invisible through a spell, the Eidolon is not.
It's as if the summoner was unmanifested.
I think there are still some open questions, just as there are with an unmanifested Eidolon. If a Eidolon with persistent bleed damage is unmanifested does it continue to bleed? Once it is manifested does it resume bleeding?
Sneak attack requires you, the summoner, to make a Strike. The eidolon does not know how to sneak attack (if you require real world logic, think of it as trying to shout instructions to your fighter ally so that they can sneak attack).
As pointed out, the feat specifically states it is "you" using the eidolon's statistics, as per "you use its statistics". In a way that I'd imagine is quite similar to a battle form, albeit without the wording that the statistics can't be modified. The melded character is one character, as it says you "combine" and "become" your eidolon. You arent shouting instructions to yourself. You are still you and you would retain your sneak attack knowledge, because the feat does not restrict that like it does for activated abilities. The confusion arises because sneak attack, despite being functionally just bonus damage, can be read as requiring the character to act (as if it were a triggered free action), despite not actually requiring an action. Hence me saying it is an unusual case compared to other types of bonus damage and is therefore up to GM judgement.
Sorry, most of this seems like sophistry to me.
I think the intent is clear. Only the Eidolon is effectively present. It's as if the summoner was unmanifested.
I think there are still some open questions, just as there are with an unmanifested Eidolon. If a Eidolon with persistent bleed damage is unmanifested does it continue to bleed? Once it is manifested does it resume bleeding?
That is in no way the intent, as the ability is not written to be that at all. That is your opinion on how it should have been written, not how it is. Using the word intent to justify overhauling what the ability says it does is wrong. Your view that it should be as if the summoner was unmanifested is not at all what the ability does, as the feat itself, I and others have mentioned, it is a combination, a fusion, a melding of summoner and eidolon, not a flip switch between the two where your character ceases to exist. The "open questions" you think exist are only present in your own suggestions of what the the feat should do, not what it actually does.
With the understanding that you at no point cease to be the summoner (despite the fact you take actions as an eidolon after using the feat), the questions of whether you are still affected by conditions and persistent damage dont even need to be asked. The feat does no more or less than it says it does in the text. No pocket dimensions, no ceasing to exist, no suspending conditions, no suspending spell effects/durations and no suspending persistent damage. You simply lose the ability to take your character actions and instead take actions as an eidolon.
As written, it is designed to be more of a marvel symbiote, or perhaps more aptly a "mech-suit" type ordeal (which is particularly relevant/fitting for a summoner melding with a construct eidolon). Which also makes sense considering the feat seems to be based on the popular synthesist summoner archetype from 1e which effectively had you "wear" your eidolon.
But it doesn't say that. It just says lose your ability to act. Any of your abilities that don't require you to act are still valid.
Example Trap Finder it is a bonus to Perception checks, AC versus traps and saves versus traps.
It was pointed out to me early in the thread and--despite my wishing it worked--I agree things like this don't work. If an effect requires you, the summoner, to do something to gain or benefit from the effect and the eidolon cannot intrinsically do it by itself, it cannot be used in the melded form.
Sneak attack requires you, the summoner, to make a Strike. The eidolon does not know how to sneak attack (if you require real world logic, think of it as trying to shout instructions to your fighter ally so that they can sneak attack).
Trap Finder requires you, the summoner, to interpret the clues you pick up on while exploring. The eidolon does not have those experiences to affect how it seeks.
The stances require you, the summoner, to be behaving in a certain way every round to generate the effect. The eidolon does not know how to initiate or maintain a stance.
Look I want this resolved. But I'm not seeing what you are saying. All I seeing is a bunch of people with different preconceptions and rationalisations for the effect, coming to different conclusions.
The Summoner is not is stasis. They have not gone anywhere.
The words used areYour physical form can combine with that of your eidolon, granting benefits but limiting your capabilities. You Manifest your Eidolon, but instead of summoning it into an adjacent open space, you become it
The Summoner becomes the Eidolon. One entity.
Not disappear, not gone. One entity. Probably clearest if you say the Summoner is transformed into the Eidolon.
What does it mean? They could have said.
a) The Summoner no longer has a physical presence and is not in the game till the Eidolon unmanifests, but the Eidolons link is still considered to be active so items that benefit the Eidolon continue to work. The Summoner can't use any actions and therefore the Eidolon can use all 3 actions normally available to the Summoner.
But no they said
b) Your physical form can combine with that of your eidolon, granting benefits but limiting your capabilities. You Manifest your Eidolon, but instead of summoning it into an adjacent open space, you become it
So they talk about limiting capabilites (which is totally non specific text), and not being able to act. Which just leaves this huge space of things that aren't statistics or actions. For example what about if The Summoner has the Trapfinder Feat from Rogue.
you become it does not leave any room for spell of conditions to drop off.
Why is your rationalisation any better than mine? I've justified my rationalisation directly and clearly off the printed text.
Where is the basis for yours?
I'm pretty proud of the mech suit analogy tbh. Its a good way of summing up exactly what the ability says it does in the simplest terms that everyone can understand.
Sorry, most of this seems like sophistry to me.
And you get to the truth from sophistry by providing arguments and evidence
I think the intent is clear. Only the Eidolon is effectively present. It can do what the Eidolon could do if the summoner was present and no more.
Well that is succinct why didn't it say that.
Sneak attack requires you, the summoner, to make a Strike. The eidolon does not know how to sneak attack (if you require real world logic, think of it as trying to shout instructions to your fighter ally so that they can sneak attack).As pointed out, the feat specifically states it is "you" using the eidolon's statistics, as per "you use its statistics". In a way that I'd imagine is quite similar to a battle form, albeit without the wording that the statistics can't be modified. The melded character is one character, as it says you "combine" and "become" your eidolon. You arent shouting instructions to yourself. You are still you and you would retain your sneak attack knowledge, because the feat does not restrict that like it does for activated abilities. The confusion arises because sneak attack, despite being functionally just bonus damage, can be read as requiring the character to act (as if it were a triggered free action), despite not actually requiring an action. Hence me saying it is an unusual case compared to other types of bonus damage and is therefore up to GM judgement.
You've forgotten the second part of that clause:
While Manifested in this way, you use its statistics, and you can't act except to direct it to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it.
You, the summoner, can't act.
I believe the "you" in the first part of the clause is the player. You, the player, use the eidolon's statistics (i.e., not the summoners, which includes not the summoner's mental statistics). You, the summoner, can't act except to direct (tell) the eidolon to unmanifest.
Where is the basis for yours?
Here:
While Manifested in this way, you use its statistics, and you can't act except to direct it to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it.
EDIT: Oh, maybe you're talking about the Trap Finder feat and why I think that might not work. The feat is something that belongs to the character and requires the character to be making the save, be targeted, or act (Seek or Disable Device) to gain its benefits. The feat doesn't provide a magical entity that floats around and protects the character that could be transferred to the eidolon.
While Manifested in this way, you use its statistics, and you can't act except to direct it to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it.You, the summoner, can't act.
I believe the "you" in the first part of the clause is the player. You, the player, use the eidolon's statistics (i.e., not the summoners, which includes not the summoner's mental statistics). You, the summoner, can't act except to direct (tell) the eidolon to unmanifest.
On the contrary, that is included purely because the eidolon's list of actions (ie, how it can act) does not include a dismiss itself. Therefore that text was included to say "you cant use any of your normal actions, except the action to dismiss the eidolon because an eidolon cant do that to itself by default."
As you have "become" your eidolon and explicitly can only take actions as an eidolon, as per the feat text, that needed to be included as an exception, otherwise you'd never be able to change back.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You've forgotten the second part of that clause:While Manifested in this way, you use its statistics, and you can't act except to direct it to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it.You, the summoner, can't act.
I believe the "you" in the first part of the clause is the player. You, the player, use the eidolon's statistics (i.e., not the summoners, which includes not the summoner's mental statistics). You, the summoner, can't act except to direct (tell) the eidolon to unmanifest.
Can't act.
Does that mean can't take actions, or is it some larger more vague can't do anything? Maybe
Does it mean that you aren't present at all? Well that havent defined that well.
The rules also says or use other abilities that require you, and not the eidolon, to act.
Which implicitly allows any ability that does not require you to act.
There is a gap there in the rule, and you haven't closed it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The summoner isn't piloting the Eidolon like piloting a mech suit. They're Eddie Brock along for the ride as Venom goes on a rampage, with the minor additional control of being able to tell Venom to bugger off.
You become the Eidolon is effectively you are replaced by the Eidolon.
You stating your opinions that disregard the rules text and every explanation based on the text is getting old.
Gortle and I are refuting with rules text from the feat itself stating exactly how it works. You are objecting based on nothing but belief on how you think it should work, not what the feat actually does.
Again, a redhead that becomes a doctor does not cease being a readhead, the readhead is not "effectively replaced" by a doctor. The feat does nothing to transpose you into a pocket dimension or do anything fancy like that. It specifically says you combine and you use the statistics of the eidolon. Nothing more.