Well yeah, because those two are more or less in the same 'tier' of armor. It only makes sense to compare them.
You only compare medium armor to light armor.
What tiers are you talking about? If you mean accessibility, then light armor is in a lower tier than medium. If you speak of efficiency, then light is on par with heavy and medium is in the lower tier.
There are plently of good reasons to stay in medium armor.You only compare medium armor to light armor. All the reasons to go for medium armor over light are also given by heavy armor.
Also you can hardly get armor specialization without also having heavy armor proficiency.
Heavy armour has a baked in speed penalty and more or less demands a high strength build. Yes the AC is better but that is not the only point here. I was only comparing light to medium. The question is does medium have a place. The answer is it is different to light armour. It has a niche.
I think is about default proficiency of many classes. Once that access to heavy armors need a feat for many medium armored classes and light armors both have the same potential AC bonus when you reach the dex cap that's what qualifies them as "same tier".
One interesting thing I notice about armors with classes with access to medium armor is that characters have invested some ammount in dex usually just take best armor they found while playing instead of worry into move armors runes. For example, a lvl 10, 18 dex char able to use a medium armor that found +2 light armor for example will probably just switch it's armor for this new one instead of keep it's currently armor and try to move the rune.
Also about fortification rune, it isn't like there is no good runes for light armors only. Shadow, Misleading and Greater Invisibility runes are very interesting too and are light only.
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It has a niche.
If every class had light, medium and heavy armor proficiency, would there be medium armor users past level 4?
In my opinion, no. Whatever the "niche" of medium armor, it is so small I don't see it.
It is not uncommon for middle of the road options to lose utility as characters grow into more power or at least become more specialized. We take the training wheels off once we have outgrown them. A rather narrow section of builds might not view it as transitional in which case more options are still good options. Is it weird that someone dreaming of full plate would start with the single biggest piece (breastplate) and add on from there as training, cost or availability stops being a barrier? Or the aforementioned armor striptease? Transitional stages model one aspect of character growth which is good for TTRPG. How does it go? It is about the journey, not the destination. Let medium armor be a part of the journey even if most (or even just some) builds do not see it as a destination.
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It has a niche.
If every class had light, medium and heavy armor proficiency, would there be medium armor users past level 4?
In my opinion, no. Whatever the "niche" of medium armor, it is so small I don't see it.
Sure. I don't like the fantasy of my PC having to walk around in restricting clunky armor all the time.
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Sure. I don't like the fantasy of my PC having to walk around in restricting clunky armor all the time.It has a niche.
If every class had light, medium and heavy armor proficiency, would there be medium armor users past level 4?
In my opinion, no. Whatever the "niche" of medium armor, it is so small I don't see it.
There's definitely fantasy around the medium armor, but that's not really the point of the discussion.
Fantasy and inertia don't define a role.
Maybe I think the fantasy around the medium armor enter into the discussion once the armor looses it's advantage during progression. So if you want to have some fantasy around your character like for example a non-str druid using Hide Armor you know if you want to keep this fantasy while you progress will be subpar once your dexterity progresses, continuing in medium armor will only hinder you mechanically, making your costume choice contradict mechanical efficiency.
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It has a niche.
If every class had light, medium and heavy armor proficiency, would there be medium armor users past level 4?
In my opinion, no. Whatever the "niche" of medium armor, it is so small I don't see it.
The niche is medium armor is the most protective armor that many STR characters can get without specialized training in heavy armor that requires some class level resources to acquire. Is +1 AC worth investing those resources? For some characters the answer will be yes. That makes logical sense. In war, people constantly fighting on the front lines probably should be thinking “learning how to wear better armor is a valuable use of my time and training.” But heavy amor has a cost. Is 1 boost to dexterity as stiff a penalty as a class feat and locking down your dedication? For some characters, the desire to boost Dex and STR some was already a part of their build and dedicating class feats to a nominal defense boost instead of something more active and fun doesn’t feel worth it. so they wear medium armor for at least a while, and maybe stay in it because light armor doesn’t give any benefit over medium armor if your attributes are high enough.
Why would medium armor need more of a niche than that?
So if you want to have some fantasy around your character like for example a non-str druid using Hide ArmorIs there such fantasy? For my non-str druid there's no possibility of wearing Hide because of str requirement and penalties and I couldn't even give him simple Leather because of bulk. The only choice remained is Padded (and people wondered here who'd use it :) ).
Do none of the newly released types of armor work for your character?
The niche is medium armor is the most protective armor that many STR characters can get without specialized training in heavy armor that requires some class level resources to acquire. Is +1 AC worth investing those resources?
+2 AC and +3 to most Reflex saves if you are a strength based martial with no dexterity. If you don't have dexterity you can't use medium armor. It's the armor type with the biggest requirements and you gain nothing out of it.
The main asset of light and heavy armor is to dump strength and dexterity respectively. The +1 to AC is nearly icing on the cake.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It has a niche.
If every class had light, medium and heavy armor proficiency, would there be medium armor users past level 4?
In my opinion, no. Whatever the "niche" of medium armor, it is so small I don't see it.
If every class had full access to all advanced weapons we wouldn't see martial weapons get used either. Good thing we don't live in that world, huh?
The niche is medium armor is the most protective armor that many STR characters can get without specialized training in heavy armor that requires some class level resources to acquire. Is +1 AC worth investing those resources?
+2 AC and +3 to most Reflex saves if you are a strength based martial with no dexterity. If you don't have dexterity you can't use medium armor. It's the armor type with the biggest requirements and you gain nothing out of it.
The main asset of light and heavy armor is to dump strength and dexterity respectively. The +1 to AC is nearly icing on the cake.
But characters still exist that want Str or Dex but it is only a secondary requirement so they will have mid range Str or Dex for quite a few level.
Often an archer type will want a bit of Str because they have a propulsive weapon but they have a need for other attributes more, so Str may be just 14. Likewise they could be happy with a mid range Dex for some time. They may well be character level 15 before they take it above a 14 attribute score.
But characters still exist that want Str or Dex but it is only a secondary requirement so they will have mid range Str or Dex for quite a few level.
Often an archer type will want a bit of Str because they have a propulsive weapon but they have a need for other attributes more, so Str may be just 14. Likewise they could be happy with a mid range Dex for some time. They may well be character level 15 before they take it above a 14 attribute score.
What value is there in leaving str at 14? You'll never catch up to where you need to be to hit average success rates with int or cha so you may as well lean into maximizing str, upgrading to plate at 10 for the extra AC and damage and putting your three skills in dex, wis or str.
Same goes for dex. There's no way being both two behind on a skill AND two behind on a save is worth more than just ignoring a stat and being on par with your saves.
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If you speak of efficiency, then light is on par with heavy and medium is in the lower tier.
Incorrect, you cannot gain 6 base AC with light armor.
But characters still exist that want Str or Dex but it is only a secondary requirement so they will have mid range Str or Dex for quite a few level.
Often an archer type will want a bit of Str because they have a propulsive weapon but they have a need for other attributes more, so Str may be just 14. Likewise they could be happy with a mid range Dex for some time. They may well be character level 15 before they take it above a 14 attribute score.
Why would an archer go with medium armor? Light is cheaper (as they will certainly buy their armor at level 1).
And having 14 Dex and 14 Str? It seems like an extremely odd stat array.Incorrect, you cannot gain 6 base AC with light armor.
Light:
- Str dump- Cheap price
- Lower ability requirements as the penalties for not meeting Str requirement are low
Heavy:
- Dex dump (but with lower Reflex)
- + 1 AC but - 5 ft of Speed
Medium:
- Nothing
I definitely put light in the same tier than heavy and medium in a secondary tier.
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Medium - no cost for classes who get it in their chassis and can’t really afford to dump STR and DEX with their starting build. No character who is starting with a 16 in STR or DEX as their highest stat is getting away with a 10 in the other. As soon as you’ve put one boost into the other stat, medium and light armor are pretty comparable, except medium amor still offers specialization if you get it.
Completely dumping either STR or DEX should not be assumed to be the only way to build a character. If you are not dumping one entirely, the difference between the medium and light is largely about current fit for your character and aesthetics.
What value is there in leaving str at 14? You'll never catch up to where you need to be to hit average success rates with int or cha so you may as well lean into maximizing str, upgrading to plate at 10 for the extra AC and damage and putting your three skills in dex, wis or str.But characters still exist that want Str or Dex but it is only a secondary requirement so they will have mid range Str or Dex for quite a few level.
Often an archer type will want a bit of Str because they have a propulsive weapon but they have a need for other attributes more, so Str may be just 14. Likewise they could be happy with a mid range Dex for some time. They may well be character level 15 before they take it above a 14 attribute score.
An archer ranger starting at 1st with 14 Str, 18 Dex, and 14 or 16 Wis planning on warden focus spells, multiclass Druid Dedication/spellcasting, and the Eldritch Archer archetype? It's not even like this is a "strange" concept. As mentioned, a 14 Str (easily boosted to 18 by 10th level while also pumping Dex for ranged attacks and Wis for spells; it's not as if Int or Cha will need a lot of investment for this concept) for propulsive bows is not a "bad choice" for a primarily ranged attacker.
Yes, wearing medium armor "wastes" some the Dex bonus used for AC by a high-Dex character, but
1) the maximum AC bonus for armor plus Dex is capped at +5 total for everything except heavy armor (+6) or no protection at all (which prevents armor runes and/or affixed spellhearts; even explorer's clothing or bracers of armor are capped at +0 item/+5 Dex bonus before magic) and
2) the full Dex bonus still applies to everything else (saves, skill checks, etc.) as long as the Str requirement for the armor is met.
You don't "lose" anything wearing medium armor vs. light armor in most cases, unless there is a very specific capability from a particular light armor you are looking for or you completely "dump" Str for some reason. And some concepts don't "need" heavy armor to do what they are supposed to do.
What runes can’t go on heavy armor that can go on medium?I believe Shadow is the only one so far. I'm hoping one of the upcoming books (maybe Grand Bazaar?) will introduce more
Yes, just the shadow runes.
And I'll take the opportunity to mention that I've recently updated my Runes Tables.
Also here are my Armor Tables which include variants like Elvish mail, mithral armors, and armored skirt combos.
An archer ranger starting at 1st with 14 Str, 18 Dex, and 14 or 16 Wis planning on warden focus spells, multiclass Druid Dedication/spellcasting, and the Eldritch Archer archetype? It's not even like this is a "strange" concept. As mentioned, a 14 Str (easily boosted to 18 by 10th level while also pumping Dex for ranged attacks and Wis for spells; it's not as if Int or Cha will need a lot of investment for this concept) for propulsive bows is not a "bad choice" for a primarily ranged attacker.
Yes, wearing medium armor "wastes" some the Dex bonus used for AC by a high-Dex character, but
1) the maximum AC bonus for armor plus Dex is capped at +5 total for everything except heavy armor (+6) or no protection at all (which prevents armor runes and/or affixed spellhearts; even explorer's clothing or bracers of armor are capped at +0 item/+5 Dex bonus before magic) and
2) the full Dex bonus still applies to everything else (saves, skill checks, etc.) as long as the Str requirement for the armor is met.You don't "lose" anything wearing medium armor vs. light armor in most cases, unless there is a very specific capability from a particular light armor you are looking for or you completely "dump" Str...
Of course you do: You lose 1 bulk and a bunch of gold pieces. As you are speaking of level 1, you definitely go for leather with this build. Now, if you want some medium armor runes, like Fortification, I can understand you switch later on. But it looks like Fortification Rune is the only selling point for medium armor (and I'm sure light armor also has some nice runes).
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Of course you do: You lose 1 bulk and a bunch of gold pieces. As you are speaking of level 1, you definitely go for leather with this build. Now, if you want some medium armor runes, like Fortification, I can understand you switch later on. But it looks like Fortification Rune is the only selling point for medium armor (and I'm sure light armor also has some nice runes).An archer ranger starting at 1st with 14 Str, 18 Dex, and 14 or 16 Wis planning on warden focus spells, multiclass Druid Dedication/spellcasting, and the Eldritch Archer archetype? It's not even like this is a "strange" concept. As mentioned, a 14 Str (easily boosted to 18 by 10th level while also pumping Dex for ranged attacks and Wis for spells; it's not as if Int or Cha will need a lot of investment for this concept) for propulsive bows is not a "bad choice" for a primarily ranged attacker.
Yes, wearing medium armor "wastes" some the Dex bonus used for AC by a high-Dex character, but
1) the maximum AC bonus for armor plus Dex is capped at +5 total for everything except heavy armor (+6) or no protection at all (which prevents armor runes and/or affixed spellhearts; even explorer's clothing or bracers of armor are capped at +0 item/+5 Dex bonus before magic) and
2) the full Dex bonus still applies to everything else (saves, skill checks, etc.) as long as the Str requirement for the armor is met.You don't "lose" anything wearing medium armor vs. light armor in most cases, unless there is a very specific capability from a particular light armor you are looking for or you completely "dump" Str...
The selling point of medium armor to me is that it's free for my class. Not in GP, but in the fact I just get it as a Ranger or Magus or even Barbarian. I have no desire to spend a level 2 feat, especially without Free Archetype, and even WITH Free Archetype to get heavy armor, when I could spend that feat slot on literally anything else and still have the same AC as everyone but a Champion.
The selling point of medium armor to me is that it's free for my class. Not in GP, but in the fact I just get it as a Ranger or Magus or even Barbarian. I have no desire to spend a level 2 feat, especially without Free Archetype, and even WITH Free Archetype to get heavy armor, when I could spend that feat slot on literally anything...
Using Medium Armor because you're forced to do so doesn't really define a role.
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I find myself in the "medium armor does not have a niche and should have one" camp.
its like this, A fighter has access to all three armor types, and there are reasons for a fighter to choose heavy (STR builds) and reasons to choose light (DEX builds) but never a reason to have medium outside of a transitional period until you have the stats for one of the other ones. Some have said that is its niche and I find that argument baffling. Medium Armor is an entire class of armor that is presented as equal to the others. It is not the simple weapons to martial weapons, nor is it some form of training wheels. It should have something that makes it actually special and worth taking on its own merits.
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I find myself in the "medium armor does not have a niche and should have one" camp.
its like this, A fighter has access to all three armor types, and there are reasons for a fighter to choose heavy (STR builds) and reasons to choose light (DEX builds) but never a reason to have medium outside of a transitional period until you have the stats for one of the other ones. Some have said that is its niche and I find that argument baffling. Medium Armor is an entire class of armor that is presented as equal to the others. It is not the simple weapons to martial weapons, nor is it some form of training wheels. It should have something that makes it actually special and worth taking on its own merits.
it maxes out my AC on my non-Fighter Str based martials (and non Champion ofc). Without costing me a 2nd level class feat or dedication to an archetype with like 1 other good feat. I can choose an archetype I want, or a class feat I want.
I would really, really much rather have Expanded Spellstrike than Sentinal dedication, and honestly I'd rather take wizard or witch dedication to fill a bunch of low lvl spell slots with True Strike.
So yeah, there's no real niche for medium armor on a class which has proficiency in all three armors with a KAS of Str or Dex. But that's fine, IMO.
The place for Medium Armor is for your Inventor with 18 Int, your Barbarian who wants to invest in Cha for Intimidation, your Warpriest who wants Wis and Cha, your Thaumaturge who wants 18 Cha and 16 Str, etc.
Medium Armor is for people who want to be armored, but can't afford a significant investment in Dex.
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So yeah, there's no real niche for medium armor on a class which has proficiency in all three armors with a KAS of Str or Dex. But that's fine, IMO.
The place for Medium Armor is for your Inventor with 18 Int, your Barbarian who wants to invest in Cha for Intimidation, your Warpriest who wants Wis and Cha, your Thaumaturge who wants 18 Cha and 16 Str, etc.
Medium Armor is for people who want to be armored, but can't afford a significant investment in Dex.
My Magus who wanted 18 Str, 16 Int. My Magus who wants Expanded Spellstrike and Witch dedication to fill lower level spell slots with True Strike, Haste and other offensive and defensive buffs. I really don't think a feat for +1 AC and maybe some reflex saves is worth it. It might be, but I feel the versatility in options offered by the above feats outweighs the +1 AC, or -1 AC depending on how you view it. His AC is still the regular maxed of +5 overall however you cut it.
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So yeah, there's no real niche for medium armor on a class which has proficiency in all three armors with a KAS of Str or Dex. But that's fine, IMO.
The place for Medium Armor is for your Inventor with 18 Int, your Barbarian who wants to invest in Cha for Intimidation, your Warpriest who wants Wis and Cha, your Thaumaturge who wants 18 Cha and 16 Str, etc.
Medium Armor is for people who want to be armored, but can't afford a significant investment in Dex.
That's the design space for heavy armor. Strength-based MAD builds all want to go for heavy as it allows them to end up with ok Reflex saves and AC despite dumping Dexterity.
Medium Armor asks for Dexterity, both to maximize its bonus and to progress in Reflex saves. Even if you choose not to increase it and keep crappy Reflex saves, you still have this stat boost forever lost to maximize AC that would have been so much better in Constitution or Wisdom.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Isn't medium armor better for a fighter who could wear light armor, but is strong enough not to have to? A fighter gets armor specializations and there really isn't any light armor rune that compares to fortification. Same with Champions.
The only thing that light armor does is let you "dump strength." But the only dex based martial that doesn't also want str is really the thief rogue.
The entire premise of this thread is that any character that has a 12 or higher in STR or DEX and a maximal attribute in the other is sub-optimal. I think that is a very questionable premise.
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Isn't medium armor better for a fighter who could wear light armor, but is strong enough not to have to? A fighter gets armor specializations and there really isn't any light armor rune that compares to fortification. Same with Champions.
The only thing that light armor does is let you "dump strength." But the only dex based martial that doesn't also want str is really the thief rogue.
The entire premise of this thread is that any character that has a 12 or higher in STR or DEX and a maximal attribute in the other is sub-optimal. I think that is a very questionable premise.
To properly wear Medium Armor, you need at least 14 Strength. To properly wear Heavy Armor you need at least 16 Strength. Considering that +1 to AC does much more to avoid critical hits than a Fortification Rune and that Armor Specialization is better on Heavy Armor than Medium, the question would be: Is it interesting to stay in Medium Armor if you can easily switch to heavy? Especially at high level where the speed reduction becomes really secondary considering the speeds you can get to.
So light armor is essentially an illusion choice too. The question really boils down to whether the trade off between 5ft of speed for +1 AC is enough to make the decision to wear heavy armor or not. Then for other classes that don't get heavy armor, the question is whether that +1 AC is so obviously better the loss of speed that it is worth spending class feats on.
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So light armor is essentially an illusion choice too.
Not at all. Light Armor allows you to dump Strength.
The issue with Medium Armor is that it forces you to boost 2 stats that are overlapping a lot. Dexterity and Strength both handles weapon attack rolls, AC and Reflex saves. They have different skills associated but they have the least number of them (outside Constitution) so from a skill monkeyness point of view, boosting both is not really interesting. There are very few mechanical reasons to increase both of them.
In my opinion, Medium Armor would be much better if it had a one point higher max Dex bonus. It would become a true competitor against heavy (same AC, no speed penalty, higher requirements to maximize and no Dexterity dump stat). Light would still have its use as the low requirement low Strength armor.
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That is an interesting suggestion SuperBidi. Basically have the same combined cap as heavy armor, by increasing the dex you can have on medium armors by 1. Now it's a reward for investing in both strength and dex.
Dex focused characters use light armor, strength focused characters use heavy armor, and those with a mixed focus between dex and strength use medium armor.
To properly wear Medium Armor, you need at least 14 Strength. To properly wear Heavy Armor you need at least 16 Strength. Considering that +1 to AC does much more to avoid critical hits than a Fortification Rune and that Armor Specialization is better on Heavy Armor than Medium, the question would be: Is it interesting to stay in Medium Armor if you can easily switch to heavy? Especially at high level where the speed reduction becomes really secondary considering the speeds you can get to.Isn't medium armor better for a fighter who could wear light armor, but is strong enough not to have to? A fighter gets armor specializations and there really isn't any light armor rune that compares to fortification. Same with Champions.
The only thing that light armor does is let you "dump strength." But the only dex based martial that doesn't also want str is really the thief rogue.
The entire premise of this thread is that any character that has a 12 or higher in STR or DEX and a maximal attribute in the other is sub-optimal. I think that is a very questionable premise.
This is an overly reductionist approach. It is a rather pointless argument that there is only one true build. Or maybe only a few true builds.
There are plently of builds that have use for some strength but strength is not that important to them.
Example: propulsive weapon users, some Druids like the feats with Str prerequisites, some people want multiclass options with Str prerequisites, Non Thief Dex based melee characters...
The cost of heavy armour is movement rate, the ability scores, and feats. Not every situation is a high level Free Archetype game. Even in some of those I'm really tight on feats for my concept.
The other thing is that as free archetype becomes more popular as a baseline, the more likely a GM is to bar the most powerful or omnipresent archetypes from being taken for free. Since the point of the variant is either to be able to run games where "you're all pirates" or to be able to seed archetypes like medic or juggler that make characters more fun and versatile without clearly being more powerful.
Like if you're running a free archetype game where 4 players choose Herbalist, Acrobat, Wrestler, and Sentinel then you might prefer the latter choose something else.
I'm personally trying to keep tabs on "what archetypes are seen as pure power boosts" since those are the ones that should actually have a class feat tradeoff.
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Medium Armor is an entire class of armor that is presented as equal to the others.
Well, because it more or less is. It gives the same combined total AC as light and both give less than heavy.
Like if you're running a free archetype game where 4 players choose Herbalist, Acrobat, Wrestler, and Sentinel then you might prefer the latter choose something else.
That just seems kind of punitive to the dude who wants better armor, though. Not sure how that would be better for anyone.
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It' seems a really solid choice for a STR based monk, but that would mean having an alchemist in party, and this should never happen ( not because you don't like elixirs and alchemical stuff, but because the group would appreciate to survive and come back from the journey ).
It really depends on the group size. A 4-man party will target the most directly efficient classes, but once you get above 4 party members, there's more and more space for an Alchemist.