What is the Role of Medium Armor?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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HumbleGamer wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
It' seems a really solid choice for a STR based monk, but that would mean having an alchemist in party, and this should never happen ( not because you don't like elixirs and alchemical stuff, but because the group would appreciate to survive and come back from the journey ).
It really depends on the group size. A 4-man party will target the most directly efficient classes, but once you get above 4 party members, there's more and more space for an Alchemist.

I thought the opposite, as they can bring a little of everything.

- some aoe with bombs
- some healings with elixirs
- some skill with mutagens
- vary energy damage

but in a larger party is it probably ther would be all the 4 classes/roles + the alchemist, that would end up being the classic "master of none".

There are better jack of all trades for small parties. On the other hand, Alchemical Items stack with everything, so in a 6-man party, you'll have hard time finding a class that will bring something new to the party. The Alchemist does.

I'd personally take an Alchemist mostly in big parties. In a small party, I'd go for a Summoner which is much more solid as an all rounder.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
HumbleGamer wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
You don’t get better AC than plate with drakeheart mutagens from an Alchemist MC. Not to mention it isn’t always on.
Actually, it depends on the level, as you do get better AC than plate with drakeheart mutagen I think on 50% of the levels.

The context was drakeheart being provided by an alchemist multiclass, so no, it is never better than plate if that is your source.

Lesser Drakeheart is total 6ac, same as heavy.

Moderate Drakeheart gives you 7ac, same as heavy +1 Potency. MC Alchemist can make it at lvl 6. The armor rune is lvl 5.

Greater Drakeheart gives you 8ac, equal to heavy +2 potency. MC Alchemist can't make that until level 16. The +2 Potency rune is level 11.


CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
You don’t get better AC than plate with drakeheart mutagens from an Alchemist MC. Not to mention it isn’t always on.
Actually, it depends on the level, as you do get better AC than plate with drakeheart mutagen I think on 50% of the levels.

The context was drakeheart being provided by an alchemist multiclass, so no, it is never better than plate if that is your source.

Lesser Drakeheart is total 6ac, same as heavy.

Moderate Drakeheart gives you 7ac, same as heavy +1 Potency. MC Alchemist can make it at lvl 6. The armor rune is lvl 5.

Greater Drakeheart gives you 8ac, equal to heavy +2 potency. MC Alchemist can't make that until level 16. The +2 Potency rune is level 11.

You can still pick up a potency runes on explorer's clothing and the runes stack so the ac would be off by one between 11-16. If solely using reagents.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Riddlyn wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
You don’t get better AC than plate with drakeheart mutagens from an Alchemist MC. Not to mention it isn’t always on.
Actually, it depends on the level, as you do get better AC than plate with drakeheart mutagen I think on 50% of the levels.

The context was drakeheart being provided by an alchemist multiclass, so no, it is never better than plate if that is your source.

Lesser Drakeheart is total 6ac, same as heavy.

Moderate Drakeheart gives you 7ac, same as heavy +1 Potency. MC Alchemist can make it at lvl 6. The armor rune is lvl 5.

Greater Drakeheart gives you 8ac, equal to heavy +2 potency. MC Alchemist can't make that until level 16. The +2 Potency rune is level 11.

You can still pick up a potency runes on explorer's clothing and the runes stack so the ac would be off by one between 11-16. If solely using reagents.

Potency runes are item bonuses. They don’t stack with drakeheart which is also an item bonus.

Vigilant Seal

SuperBidi wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
It' seems a really solid choice for a STR based monk, but that would mean having an alchemist in party, and this should never happen ( not because you don't like elixirs and alchemical stuff, but because the group would appreciate to survive and come back from the journey ).
It really depends on the group size. A 4-man party will target the most directly efficient classes, but once you get above 4 party members, there's more and more space for an Alchemist.

I thought the opposite, as they can bring a little of everything.

- some aoe with bombs
- some healings with elixirs
- some skill with mutagens
- vary energy damage

but in a larger party is it probably ther would be all the 4 classes/roles + the alchemist, that would end up being the classic "master of none".

There are better jack of all trades for small parties. On the other hand, Alchemical Items stack with everything, so in a 6-man party, you'll have hard time finding a class that will bring something new to the party. The Alchemist does.

I'd personally take an Alchemist mostly in big parties. In a small party, I'd go for a Summoner which is much more solid as an all rounder.

How would you feel if someone built an Orc Warlock I mean Summoner with the Occult tradition using an Anger Phantom and went for mostly blasting with spells like Fear, Phantom Pain, Grim Tendrils, Blood Vendetta and Warrior's Regret focusing on Curses, debuffs and direct damaging spells to pretend they're a Warlock from World of Warcraft with a Felguard? Just curious.


Trixleby wrote:

How would you feel if someone built an Orc Warlock I mean Summoner with the Occult tradition using an Anger Phantom and went for mostly blasting with spells like Fear, Phantom Pain, Grim Tendrils, Blood Vendetta and Warrior's Regret focusing on Curses, debuffs and direct damaging spells to pretend they're a Warlock from World of Warcraft with a Felguard? Just curious.

The only thing I'd tell the player is to grab some at will blasting spell, certainly Electric Arc, as the Summoner spell list is quite limited. I'd also encourage them to think about ranged combattant as the Anger Phantom level 7 ability is very strong but far too dangerous to use at melee range.

Beyond that, I'd be happy if they love the Summoner as much as I do :)

Vigilant Seal

SuperBidi wrote:
Trixleby wrote:

How would you feel if someone built an Orc Warlock I mean Summoner with the Occult tradition using an Anger Phantom and went for mostly blasting with spells like Fear, Phantom Pain, Grim Tendrils, Blood Vendetta and Warrior's Regret focusing on Curses, debuffs and direct damaging spells to pretend they're a Warlock from World of Warcraft with a Felguard? Just curious.

The only thing I'd tell the player is to grab some at will blasting spell, certainly Electric Arc, as the Summoner spell list is quite limited. I'd also encourage them to think about ranged combattant as the Anger Phantom level 7 ability is very strong but far too dangerous to use at melee range.

Beyond that, I'd be happy if they love the Summoner as much as I do :)

Seems hard to get electric arc on an Orc because unlike all the other cool kid races they don't get fancy pants innate magic feats or heritage options :<


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The new spellheart, jolt coil, that grants electric arc is available at level 3


That's definitely true.
One solution, but a costly one if you are not playing with Free Archetype, is to grab a dedication. The Summoner can really use a few low level spell slots so it's overall a good choice. But without Free Archetype, it may be too expensive.

Anyway, if you want to speak about it, don't hesitate to send me a PM (as I don't think it's relevant to the discussion). Also, even if I have my vision of the Summoner, there's definitely multiple ways to built it!


CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
Riddlyn wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
You don’t get better AC than plate with drakeheart mutagens from an Alchemist MC. Not to mention it isn’t always on.
Actually, it depends on the level, as you do get better AC than plate with drakeheart mutagen I think on 50% of the levels.

The context was drakeheart being provided by an alchemist multiclass, so no, it is never better than plate if that is your source.

Lesser Drakeheart is total 6ac, same as heavy.

Moderate Drakeheart gives you 7ac, same as heavy +1 Potency. MC Alchemist can make it at lvl 6. The armor rune is lvl 5.

Greater Drakeheart gives you 8ac, equal to heavy +2 potency. MC Alchemist can't make that until level 16. The +2 Potency rune is level 11.

You can still pick up a potency runes on explorer's clothing and the runes stack so the ac would be off by one between 11-16. If solely using reagents.
Potency runes are item bonuses. They don’t stack with drakeheart which is also an item bonus.

Just like armor drakeheart mutagen says add the listed bonus to AC. So how would they work for armor and not the mutagen?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Riddlyn wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
Riddlyn wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
You don’t get better AC than plate with drakeheart mutagens from an Alchemist MC. Not to mention it isn’t always on.
Actually, it depends on the level, as you do get better AC than plate with drakeheart mutagen I think on 50% of the levels.

The context was drakeheart being provided by an alchemist multiclass, so no, it is never better than plate if that is your source.

Lesser Drakeheart is total 6ac, same as heavy.

Moderate Drakeheart gives you 7ac, same as heavy +1 Potency. MC Alchemist can make it at lvl 6. The armor rune is lvl 5.

Greater Drakeheart gives you 8ac, equal to heavy +2 potency. MC Alchemist can't make that until level 16. The +2 Potency rune is level 11.

You can still pick up a potency runes on explorer's clothing and the runes stack so the ac would be off by one between 11-16. If solely using reagents.
Potency runes are item bonuses. They don’t stack with drakeheart which is also an item bonus.
Just like armor drakeheart mutagen says add the listed bonus to AC. So how would they work for armor and not the mutagen?

It doesn't work like that. If you think about it, if it did, a regular alchemist could give some truly absurd armor numbers by stacking drakeheart and armor runes.

Basically, armor gives an item bonus to AC. +6 for Full Plate for instance. Potency runes increase that bonus. So full plate with a +1 rune has a +7 item bonus to AC.

Drakeheart also gives an item bonus to AC. That is two separate item bonuses. Basic 2e rules, 2 bonuses of the same type don't stack, you get the greater.

Potency rune's specifically increase the armor item bonus of the armor they are affixed to. You can't affix a potency rune to an elixir, and drakeheart isn't armor so it wouldn't work anyways.


CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
Riddlyn wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
Riddlyn wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
You don’t get better AC than plate with drakeheart mutagens from an Alchemist MC. Not to mention it isn’t always on.
Actually, it depends on the level, as you do get better AC than plate with drakeheart mutagen I think on 50% of the levels.

The context was drakeheart being provided by an alchemist multiclass, so no, it is never better than plate if that is your source.

Lesser Drakeheart is total 6ac, same as heavy.

Moderate Drakeheart gives you 7ac, same as heavy +1 Potency. MC Alchemist can make it at lvl 6. The armor rune is lvl 5.

Greater Drakeheart gives you 8ac, equal to heavy +2 potency. MC Alchemist can't make that until level 16. The +2 Potency rune is level 11.

You can still pick up a potency runes on explorer's clothing and the runes stack so the ac would be off by one between 11-16. If solely using reagents.
Potency runes are item bonuses. They don’t stack with drakeheart which is also an item bonus.
Just like armor drakeheart mutagen says add the listed bonus to AC. So how would they work for armor and not the mutagen?

It doesn't work like that. If you think about it, if it did, a regular alchemist could give some truly absurd armor numbers by stacking drakeheart and armor runes.

Basically, armor gives an item bonus to AC. +6 for Full Plate for instance. Potency runes increase that bonus. So full plate with a +1 rune has a +7 item bonus to AC.

Drakeheart also gives an item bonus to AC. That is two separate item bonuses. Basic 2e rules, 2 bonuses of the same type don't stack, you get the greater.

Potency rune's specifically increase the armor item bonus of the armor they are affixed to. You can't affix a potency rune to an elixir, and drakeheart isn't armor so it wouldn't work anyways.

Again no that doesn't make sense. If it was worded different I could see your argument. But the wording of the mutagen is the same as the wording for armor. You gain the listed bonus to AC. Armors bonus to ac is also an item bonus


caffeinatedninja is right.

Or else the alchemist will be tier S because of the drakeheart mutagen with potency runes.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The runes add to the item bonus of the armor you are wearing, then you choose the highest item bonus between the mutagen and the armor. You don't add the rune bonus to the mutagen.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Riddlyn wrote:
Again no that doesn't make sense. If it was worded different I could see your argument. But the wording of the mutagen is the same as the wording for armor. You gain the listed bonus to AC. Armors bonus to ac is also an item bonus

You are right, and this still make a perfect sense. What you wrote means that armor and mutagen don't stack, because they are of the same type - item bonus. Is this clear thus far?

So how do runes work if bonuses don't stack? Runes work because they aren't a bonus at all, they just increase already existing item bonus of armor:
"Increase the armor’s item bonus to AC by 1." So we don't have two bonuses, only one armor bonus, and that's all.
See? And that also means that runes can't interact with the drakeheart mutagen - it's not an armor.


Errenor wrote:
Riddlyn wrote:
Again no that doesn't make sense. If it was worded different I could see your argument. But the wording of the mutagen is the same as the wording for armor. You gain the listed bonus to AC. Armors bonus to ac is also an item bonus

You are right, and this still make a perfect sense. What you wrote means that armor and mutagen don't stack, because they are of the same type - item bonus. Is this clear thus far?

So how do runes work if bonuses don't stack? Runes work because they aren't a bonus at all, they just increase already existing item bonus of armor:
"Increase the armor’s item bonus to AC by 1." So we don't have two bonuses, only one armor bonus, and that's all.
See? And that also means that runes can't interact with the drakeheart mutagen - it's not an armor.

Ok. That's a fair enough explanation.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

The role of medium armor seems to be to give folks here something to argue about. Not that they need the excuse. :-)

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