Drift Navigation and transit time.


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If Drift navigation time varies by transit,
when do you know how long it will take?

Do you not know until you emerge?
Is it calculated once in the drift?
Is it known before you enter the drift?
Can you calculate it for a future departure so you can get proper supplies?

I have seen some justify the changing transit times by pointing out the perpetual movement of the planets and solar system changes the travel times but that would imply that two ships, leaving at the same time, from the same place, with the same destination, and the same engines would take the same transit time.... perhaps even traversing the same portion of the drift side by side?


Ok, so from a read of Drift Travel, it isn't specific. With the mention of constantly changing and even taking the same 'route' with the same shift won't give you the same results, I would say the ability to plan ahead (More then a few hours) is probably not doable. I think it would mostly fall into the purview of the story or GM. I would think you would have some idea when you start so I would lean more towards you know as you start the Drift.

two ships heading from Absalom Station to Vesk Prime might leave from near the same point and have the same transit time, yet never encounter each other in the Drift.
All of this is useful for individual ships but adds complications for fleets or caravans attempting to arrive at the same time, let alone in the same formation. In these situations, multiple vessels can “slave” their Drift engines to one another, effectively becoming a single entity for purposes of travel time and arrival position. The downside to this “mass Drifting” is that it forces all of the component ships to use the lowest Drift engine rating of the group.

I copied these 2 sections from Pact Worlds.
If A and B left at the same time, they each have their own route which could easily be very separate paths, taking different times.
However, if you plan before hand you could bet A as the 'Master' Drive and B as a 'Slave' Drive and travel the same path


I think you probably don't know until you get there. You probably don't even have a guess...

Otherwise, why not drop in and out of the drift multiple times until you roll low on the 5d6 for vast travel?


Environmental reasons? with the micro rips and stuff?
You do make a good point, but since Drift space is unpradictable wouldn't you run the risk of being dropped out somewhere hostile? Or angering The God of Drifts?


Wesrolter wrote:

Environmental reasons? with the micro rips and stuff?

You do make a good point, but since Drift space is unpradictable wouldn't you run the risk of being dropped out somewhere hostile? Or angering The God of Drifts?

Yeah, But assuming you're at war and want to get somewhere quickly, why not risk it and waste a couple hours getting your travel time down?

Or if you'e got a big shipment and want to cut some costs?

That 'tactic' hasn't been mentioned as viable in various drift articles, so I'm led to make up reasons for that in universe besides trying to cheat the dice gods.


Wesrolter wrote:
...from Pact Worlds.

ARRRG. I didn't even think to look in Pact Worlds....

Ok reading about the ever changing nature of the drift, it would appear to me that you enter the drift, set course for the drift beacon of choice and travel till you get there. How long it takes to get there varies because the drift is constantly changing. You won't know how long it take until you arrive at your destination drift beacon and emerge to find how close you are to your actual destination.

Better drift engines put you in better proximity to your destination beacon or location in the drift and spit you out in better proximity to your desired destination.


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It's basically made of wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

I agree with the general idea of you don't get to know (in character) how long it takes until you exit the drift and that rapidly entering and exiting and the drift until you get a minimum time doesn't work.

As a GM I would probably just say that if you drop out and enter at the same spot there is absolutely no change. If you drop out and move some and reenter your rolling again, but as a GM I'm rolling it in secret and never going to let it be lower than the original roll. Otherwise it's just very gamist and since there are no in universe mentions of attempting such a thing I just prefer to assume it doesn't work for reason that haven't been addressed yet.


Hmm. A few thoughts.

1. Calculating exactly how long your journey will be beforehand might be the kind of thing that requires its own skill check. If you roll well enough, you'll have an accurate estimate of travel time before you depart, but if you roll poorly, no estimate at all or a bad one.

2. If the navigator only finds out the total travel time sometime after entering the Drift ( either with or without some skill check ), then attempting to try again would definitely require leaving the Drift first. This means that not only was all your current travel time wasted, but your new realspace location should be entirely up to the GM. . .

3. Even if the navigator does have an estimate of travel time before entering the Drift, I would say that they can't just "reroll". In order to try and calculate a new course, you need to change your circumstances meaningfully first. As a good baseline, this would require an amount of time equal to the minimum travel time to your original intended destination ( spent either waiting or moving ).

All together, these would explain why, while not physically impossible, no one bothers to try and game the system. Stupid Navigator Tricks exist and can be done, but almost always don't actually save you any time.


2. Yes, leaving the Drift would be required but its not really a huge lose since it doesn't take hours to enter/exit, when your talking about the possibility of shaving of a fortnights worth of travel time. From the CRB, it takes 1 minute for the Drive to kick in.
Yes, the dropping out in a new random location is actually a thing.
3. If 2 ships enter at pretty much the same point, their path and travel time are not the same. The point you enter doesn't make a difference, only your end point matters.
The distance between the start and end of your journey doesn’t matter, nor which category of space you’re starting from: traveling from the Vast to a Near Space world is no more difficult than between two Near Space worlds.

I am not condoning the idea of trying to 'cheat the system', just pointing out thing that might be brought up by players who might want to 'cheat the system'


Wesrolter wrote:
I am not condoning the idea of trying to 'cheat the system', just pointing out thing that might be brought up by players who might want to 'cheat the system'

That's why I really recommend not telling them how long it will take until they have arrived.


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Wesrolter wrote:
1. Calculating exactly how long your journey will be beforehand might be the kind of thing that requires its own skill check. If you roll well enough, you'll have an accurate estimate of travel time before you depart, but if you roll poorly, no estimate at all or a bad one.

With the description of the drift in the pact world book being constantly, randomly expanding and contracting distances, I don't think any skill check could accurately estimate the travel time.

You could literally arrive a mile from your destination/exit point and spend a week chasing it as it expands away from you only to arrive when the expansion slows enough for you to catch it.


Bloodtyger wrote:
Wesrolter wrote:
1. Calculating exactly how long your journey will be beforehand might be the kind of thing that requires its own skill check. If you roll well enough, you'll have an accurate estimate of travel time before you depart, but if you roll poorly, no estimate at all or a bad one.

With the description of the drift in the pact world book being constantly, randomly expanding and contracting distances, I don't think any skill check could accurately estimate the travel time.

You could literally arrive a mile from your destination/exit point and spend a week chasing it as it expands away from you only to arrive when the expansion slows enough for you to catch it.

I like this explanation for why drift travel is so random.


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The problem with that is it sorta contradicts the mechanics. If your to near space is 80 hours (After the roll) you basically only ever need to travel to the target for 80 hours. I could stop after 40 hours and play house with some devils in their own bubble for 5 days then continue to travel for another 40 hours and pop out of the Drift in near space.
I understand mechanics and 'reality' don't always match.

That’s where Drift beacons enter the picture. Created and maintained by Triune’s church, Drift beacons somehow manage to exist simultaneously on both the Material Plane and in the Drift. As a result, navigators can use the beacons’ positions and advanced mathematics to locate the correct spot to exit the Drift.

If you can navigate to the spot, you should also in theory be able to get a rough estimate.

I think the problem here falls down to the GM before becoming a player issue. I think the need to have excuses fall into the player half of this. The GM needs to decide if his version of the Drift can be 'gamed' for better time and then the players need to accept there is no rule to say they can or can't so accept the GMs calling.


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Wesrolter wrote:

The problem with that is it sorta contradicts the mechanics. If your to near space is 80 hours (After the roll) you basically only ever need to travel to the target for 80 hours. I could stop after 40 hours and play house with some devils in their own bubble for 5 days then continue to travel for another 40 hours and pop out of the Drift in near space.

I understand mechanics and 'reality' don't always match.

That’s where Drift beacons enter the picture. Created and maintained by Triune’s church, Drift beacons somehow manage to exist simultaneously on both the Material Plane and in the Drift. As a result, navigators can use the beacons’ positions and advanced mathematics to locate the correct spot to exit the Drift.

If you can navigate to the spot, you should also in theory be able to get a rough estimate.

Under this mechanic the characters won't know how long it takes until they arrive.

The players may know the roll but the characters will travel for 40 hours, stop and play with demons, then continue on their journey that takes another 40 hours. If you wanted to introduce more randomness, you could make a modified roll to see what the remainder of the journey takes.
The reason you cannot get an estimated time would be that the direction remains constant (toward a beacon or location relative to a beacon or beacons) but the distance is expanding and contracting randomly thus changing your travel time in ways that cannot be accurately calculated beyond the maximum travel time based on the ship's engine and destination's beacon status (near space, vast, or Absalon).


I really love the idea of space of the drift expanding and contracting randomly, as it most easily explains the issue of inconsistent time.

It still doesn't explain why people wouldn't occasionally attempt to exit and re-enter, except that you don't know how long the journey will take so you don't know if you're gaining or losing time.

Actually...I guess that does pretty well solve that issue too.


Claxon wrote:

I really love the idea of space of the drift expanding and contracting randomly, as it most easily explains the issue of inconsistent time.

It still doesn't explain why people wouldn't occasionally attempt to exit and re-enter, except that you don't know how long the journey will take so you don't know if you're gaining or losing time.

Actually...I guess that does pretty well solve that issue too.

It actually works really well, because only your destination matters for drift travel. Even if you were going vast to vast and tried to get lucky by dropping out in near space... well, you're still headed to the vast, roll 5d6.

Wesrolter wrote:
The problem with that is it sorta contradicts the mechanics. If your to near space is 80 hours (After the roll) you basically only ever need to travel to the target for 80 hours. I could stop after 40 hours and play house with some devils in their own bubble for 5 days then continue to travel for another 40 hours and pop out of the Drift in near space.

I mean... kinda, but taking a detour in the drift should probably cause a re-roll on travel time anyway. Considering that your destination when drifting could be in the drift to start with. Sure it's not there in the rules, but it's also not outside the realm of possibility.


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I let my players know their ETA as they depart. If they ever tried rerolling, I would ask them not to metagame. First roll is what ya get.


Now your both on the lines for house rules... which as I said is the GMs choice.


That all assumes that the drift is a linear dimension working the same way as the material plane.

My theory: The drift is layered like hell is. The deeper you are, the more compressed the space is compared to the material plane allowing for shorter travels.
How deep you get depends on how strong the barrier currently is when you enter the drift and the power of your drift engine which catapults you into the drift. That would take account of the variable travel times.


Even if it's the drift expanding and contracting at random... well, it's also a mostly featureless vacuum.

So even if your destination is only a mile away and expanding away from you for your 20 days of travel, you shouldn't be able to tell that's the case.


This is all why I suggest that its *possible* to calculate an ETA, but it requires a difficult skill check to do so. With enough knowledge and experience of Drift behavior and science, you can work out the probable effects of all the spatial distortions and different dimensional layers and whatnot. . . but its not at all easy and provides dubious utility, so most navigators don't really bother. Especially since the GM should roll this check *for* the player, so they don't know how accurate they are.

Think something like. . . DC 30 gets you your travel time, plus or minus a random d6-1 roll. If you hit DC 40, you get the exact travel time. If you *miss* the DC 30 check, the GM just rerolls the same travel time dice and gives you this completely unrelated number as the ETA. If you miss by 10 or more, the GM picks whatever number they want that feels like it'd be the worst mistake.


I prefer to imagine that it's so random and chaotic that it cannot be calculated and only fools think they have it figured out to be able to do so ;)


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I mean, calculating an ETA is possible. It's the Navigate task of the Piloting skill. Takes 10 minutes with a DC ranging from 10 to 25 depending on your familiarity with the destination. Fail by 9 or less, you realize you messed up the calculations and need to run the numbers again. Fail by 10 or more, you don't catch your mistake and the trip usually takes an unexpected extra 1d6 days.


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John Mangrum wrote:
I mean, calculating an ETA is possible. It's the Navigate task of the Piloting skill. Takes 10 minutes with a DC ranging from 10 to 25 depending on your familiarity with the destination. Fail by 9 or less, you realize you messed up the calculations and need to run the numbers again. Fail by 10 or more, you don't catch your mistake and the trip usually takes an unexpected extra 1d6 days.

That's just not true.

If you pass your navigation check, the only upside is that you don't get the downside of 1d6 extra days or off target requiring a reroll of travel time (after wasting time getting to the wrong place). You don't get any information on how long it takes.

Navigation wrote:

You can use Piloting to navigate or astrogate. This lets you direct your vehicle or ship in your desired heading and to plot longer courses. Plotting a course to a star system you have visited frequently usually requires a successful DC 10 Piloting check and takes 10 minutes. Plotting a course to a less familiar star system is more difficult and requires information about the destination system; navigation is also more difficult if you are currently lost.

If you fail the check to chart a course between star systems by 9 or less, you realize that you have plotted a faulty course and must attempt the check again before you can make the journey. If you fail the check by 10 or more, you aren’t aware that your calculations are erroneous, and it takes longer than normal for you to reach your destination (usually 1d6 additional days for Drift travel). At the GM’s discretion, you might instead arrive in an unfamiliar star system (plotting a course from there to your actual destination usually requires a successful DC 25 Piloting check), or when you arrive at your intended destination, your starship’s engines may have gained the glitching critical damage condition (see page 321).

Your familiarity with a region of space or a planet determines the DC of Piloting checks to navigate or astrogate. The GM can modify these DCs (usually by 5 to 10) based on the amount of information available about your starting location and destination, and whether the location is particularly difficult to navigate (such as a trackless desert or a strange nebula).


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So, if you succeed, you don't know how long it takes. And if you fail, you don't know how long it takes, or that you rolled 6d6 instead of 5d6 for days of travel time.

*shrug* Fun interpretation.


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Here's something to ponder. Most downtime activities you can perform on a ship in transit have effects that last for one day. If you don't know how long your trip is expected to take, then to have a real chance of having that downtime activity matter, you have to perform it every day (once you reach the minimum travel time), just in case you pop out of the Drift at any moment.

Be ready to carouse, or entertain, or explore futures, or lounge, or maintain equipment, or secure an area, all day, every day, for up to a month, just to make sure it counts!

Also: You're the GM. The pilot's player wants to manage a course into the Vast. It happens that the ship's travel time is already the bare minimum. Do you tell the player they're completely wasting 5 days of downtime? If not, why not?


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Oh my, you have to perform the downtime activity while you're stuck aboard the ship with nothing else to do every day! Oh the humanity!

Simply put, you don't know when your ship will reach it's destination through Drift Travel, so yeah, if you want those bonuses guaranteed, you have to do the thing each day to guarantee it. I don't really see that as an issue as much as a "Duh, that's makes sense".

In reality, the GM should just have you make one roll (for expediency) if you say that you're spending the time each day on an activity, and have it count for the last day where you would do it.

Also, just because your travel through the drift gets you "there" doesn't mean you're actually at your exact destination. You might pop out at the edge of the solar system and need to maneuver to a planet. You might then decide to take an extra day to prepare for whatever you might encounter. Assuming you're not in a rush.


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John Mangrum wrote:

So, if you succeed, you don't know how long it takes. And if you fail, you don't know how long it takes, or that you rolled 6d6 instead of 5d6 for days of travel time.

*shrug* Fun interpretation.

I know you're being sarcastic, but I actually think so. Granted I normally skip navigation checks because they're just an extra needless complexity, and if your group has a decent pilot near impossible to fail. So it's just 'you don't know what you rolled on 5d6'.

And regarding downtime, beyond Claxon's sarcastic reply, that's actually a benefit of not knowing your travel time imo. You're risking taking too much time doing result day of downtime activities like crack technology and convalesce vs doing downtime activities that give you a benefit the next day like lounge and maintain weapons. Even that is assuming you're right in the thick of it when you drop out of the drift.

I think it also makes more interesting world building such as when planning trips for military ships or interstellar merchants or explorers.


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John Mangrum wrote:

So, if you succeed, you don't know how long it takes. And if you fail, you don't know how long it takes, or that you rolled 6d6 instead of 5d6 for days of travel time.

*shrug* Fun interpretation.

I can't see how you call this a 'fun interpretation,' when that is EXACTLY how the rules read. You make your navigation check. DM checks against the DC and gives a non-committal "Mmm, K." You then trigger your drift engine and enter the Drift. It is at this point you make the roll to determine how long the trip will be. How else could you interpret the rules?

Also, how has no one mentioned the Plan Route and Manage Course down time activities? (Character Operations Manual, pg. 154) The first lets you gain a +4 to the initial roll to determine the course. The later lets you shave 6 hours off your travel time. Both if successful, of course, and both have potential drawbacks.

Scarab Sages

This is part of why I'd houserule a different system of stellar travel. However to answer your questions if I were using drift as written.

Q1) when do you know how long it will take?
A1) When you arrive at your destination.

Q2) Do you not know until you emerge?
Correct you enter the drift and then travel through a shifting and changing world where that object off in the distance could suddenly be off your starboard bow then barely visible in front and below you before vanishing entirely.

Q3) Is it calculated once in the drift?
A3) On entry but its one of those rolls I'd make as a GM rather than letting players do it.

Q4) Is it known before you enter the drift?
A4) No

Q5) Can you calculate it for a future departure so you can get proper supplies?
A5) Only in the sense this will take up to X day's to arrive but not precisely.

John Mangrum wrote:

Here's something to ponder. Most downtime activities you can perform on a ship in transit have effects that last for one day. If you don't know how long your trip is expected to take, then to have a real chance of having that downtime activity matter, you have to perform it every day (once you reach the minimum travel time), just in case you pop out of the Drift at any moment.

Be ready to carouse, or entertain, or explore futures, or lounge, or maintain equipment, or secure an area, all day, every day, for up to a month, just to make sure it counts!

Also: You're the GM. The pilot's player wants to manage a course into the Vast. It happens that the ship's travel time is already the bare minimum. Do you tell the player they're completely wasting 5 days of downtime? If not, why not?

As I said this is part of why I wouldn't use drift travel in a game however a few options if you want the players to know . . .

1) When you calculate and enter the drift that's locked in for you and you can't change it.

2) Attempting to leave the drift is a new course and a new roll it was going to take 14 days but because you recalculated to leave its now 8 days to that exit point.

3) Treat it as a meta roll so the players know it will take X days and can plan but the characters don't and punish them if they try to abuse it by leaving and rerolling.

4) Treat it as a secret roll but give rough check marks ... "You enter the rift to fly to RV 4872 . . . After 11 days travel the navigator confirms it looks like your on course and about halfway there." They know the route but with its shifting nature they don't know if it will take 5 days or 30 to travel it this time. They do know however when they're halfway (which will tell the players how long they have to go) and a day/hour/10 minutes/all of them from estimated arrival. They an drop out and try again but they wont know till they're already halfway in.


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E-div_drone wrote:
John Mangrum wrote:

So, if you succeed, you don't know how long it takes. And if you fail, you don't know how long it takes, or that you rolled 6d6 instead of 5d6 for days of travel time.

*shrug* Fun interpretation.

I can't see how you call this a 'fun interpretation,' when that is EXACTLY how the rules read. You make your navigation check. DM checks against the DC and gives a non-committal "Mmm, K." You then trigger your drift engine and enter the Drift. It is at this point you make the roll to determine how long the trip will be. How else could you interpret the rules?

If you succeed, GM tells you travel time. If you fail, GM tells you your travel time, then secretly adds 1d6 days and maybe a random encounter.

I hate to break it to you, but your take is an interpretation, not a literal reading of the rules.

But, speaking of EXACT rules, I was just reminded of the existence of paraforan resonators (Alien Archive 3). In addition to providing the pilot with a bonus to Piloting checks to navigate through the Drift, "a paraforan resonator allows the pilot to reroll a number of d6s equal to the resonator's mark*, though the pilot must use the second result."

* So, up to 4 d6s

If the pilot doesn't know the result of their transit time roll, how do they know which dice to reroll? How does a pilot use this device? Why does a pilot use this device?

GM (secretly rolling dice): Okay, you rolled 5d6. You have a mk 4 paraforan resonator, so you can reroll up to 4 of those dice, but you must use the second result.

Pilot's Player: Well, I want to reroll the high results, right? So what did I roll?

GM: I can't tell you that.

Pilot's Player: So I just roll 4 dice at random? And do I get to know if I've added or subtracted time to our trip?

GM: No.

Pilot's Player: OK, and how many BP did we spend to add these resonators to our Medium starship?

GM: 21.


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NAVIGATE
You can use Piloting to navigate or astrogate. This lets you
direct your vehicle or ship in your desired heading and to
plot longer courses. Plotting a course to a star system you
have visited frequently usually requires a successful DC
10 Piloting check and takes 10 minutes. Plotting a course
to a less familiar star system is more difficult and requires
information about the destination system; navigation is also
more difficult if you are currently lost.
If you fail the check to chart a course between star
systems by 9 or less, you realize that you have plotted a
faulty course and must attempt the check again before you
can make the journey. If you fail the check by 10 or more,
you aren’t aware that your calculations are erroneous, and it
takes longer than normal for you to reach your destination
(usually 1d6 additional days for Drift travel). At the GM’s
discretion, you might instead arrive in an unfamiliar
star system (plotting a course from there to your actual
destination usually requires a successful DC 25 Piloting
check), or when you arrive at your intended destination,
your starship’s engines may have gained the glitching
critical damage condition (see page 321).

Rules on the use of piloting from pg. 145. These checks are made before entering the Drift.

When traveling to a world through the Drift, determine
whether the destination is in the same system, Near Space, or
the Vast. The distance between the start and end of your journey
doesn’t matter, nor which category of space you’re starting from:
traveling from the Vast to a Near Space world is no more difficult
than between two Near Space worlds. Roll using the travel times
below, then divide the result by your starship’s Drift engine rating
to determine how long it takes you to reach your destination.

From rules on Drift travel on pg. 291. Now, it is not as explicit as I recalled, I will admit, but the whole reason for the variable time is that the Drift constantly grows and changes. How then, could one know the length of the journey, from outside the Drift? The statement that the rolls are made while traveling certainly strongly imply that the rolls are made after entering the Drift, and such only makes sense given the description of the Drift.


To be honest I think John brought up a good point. If the Pilot never knows what is rolled, even on a successful check, why would they add a bit of ship gear to re-roll the die? If you don't know what the dice are, you can't pick or know if its worth activating.
Call it 5d6. If you were lucky and rolled, 3,3,2,2,1. Would you really re-roll your top X dice?

The hardened corpses of paraforans who have perished on the Material Plane can be constructed into rigid shells that attach to a starship’s Drift engine (and can be selected when building or upgrading a starship). Known as paraforan resonators, they pulse with a rainbow of colors when the accompanying Drift engine operates. A paraforan resonator grants a pilot a bonus to Piloting checks to navigate a course through the Drift equal to the resonator’s mark. In addition, when calculating travel times through the Drift, a paraforan resonator allows the pilot to reroll a number of d6s equal to the resonator’s mark, though the pilot must use the second result. The cost in Build Points is based on the starship’s size category (for the purposes of this calculation, Tiny = 1, Small = 2, Medium = 3, Large = 4, and so on).


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Wesrolter wrote:

To be honest I think John brought up a good point. If the Pilot never knows what is rolled, even on a successful check, why would they add a bit of ship gear to re-roll the die? If you don't know what the dice are, you can't pick or know if its worth activating.

Call it 5d6. If you were lucky and rolled, 3,3,2,2,1. Would you really re-roll your top X dice?

The hardened corpses of paraforans who have perished on the Material Plane can be constructed into rigid shells that attach to a starship’s Drift engine (and can be selected when building or upgrading a starship). Known as paraforan resonators, they pulse with a rainbow of colors when the accompanying Drift engine operates. A paraforan resonator grants a pilot a bonus to Piloting checks to navigate a course through the Drift equal to the resonator’s mark. In addition, when calculating travel times through the Drift, a paraforan resonator allows the pilot to reroll a number of d6s equal to the resonator’s mark, though the pilot must use the second result. The cost in Build Points is based on the starship’s size category (for the purposes of this calculation, Tiny = 1, Small = 2, Medium = 3, Large = 4, and so on).

Probably because the person who wrote the rules on Drift travel and the person who wrote this item are the same person and had different ideas or understanding about how the rules for drift travel worked, and no one in editing caught the discrenpency.

In my opinion, that item simply shouldn't exist. And is unusable as you don't know how long travel takes. And knowing exactly how long the travel takes breaks other parts of the system.

Just because an item was published doesn't mean we should amend the rules.


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With regards to the paraforan resonators, one could rule that they somehow influence the flow and flux of the Drift, such that on entering the Drift and rolling the dice, they set up a harmonic that makes a shorter, more favorable flight path possible. The game mechanic of this is both a bonus to the piloting roll to plot the course, and a number of optional re-rolls (that presumably would be used on dice that showed 5-6).

Acquisitives

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Followed the post for a while now and really wonder why all the fuzz about an "unkown travel time".
I normally tell my players how long it should take once they decided to enter the drift.
I don't see a problem here.

Claxon wrote:
And knowing exactly how long the travel takes breaks other parts of the system.

Which parts exactly? I can't know of anything which relies on players not knowing how long their travel time is.


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Peg'giz wrote:


Which parts exactly? I can't know of anything which relies on players not knowing how long their travel time is.

As it has been mentioned, once you know the duration you can simply drop out of the drift and try again if it takes too long.

Here the resonators seem to be the problem. Just remove them.

Unless you rule that any course alteration or dropping out early from the drift is impossible, so once you enter it you are stuck with it, but that is its own can of worms and I do not know if any adventure already features something like that.

Acquisitives

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Ixal wrote:

As it has been mentioned, once you know the duration you can simply drop out of the drift and try again if it takes too long.

First: If you simply drop out of the drift, you do not know where you end up to, thanks to the "fluid" behaviour of the Drift. So even if you are only one second within the drift, you could remateralize thousands of light-years away, somewhere between the stars or even more problematic: within a star.

Second: everytime you do the switch you tear a part out of the material plane (which is afaik no secret)

Third: you have to recalculate the route again, which takes time and maybe even end up with a longer travel time.

Last but not least: Just something is possible according to RAW doesn't mean you should do it. ;)


I think at this point, its more dependent on the player group you have.
Last time my group had to do travel, 3d6 they got 14 days. They shrugged and had some in game moaning about its length. So for my group, the whole drop out, jump back in hasn't been a problem so them knowing isn't an issue. They would also accept if I just said 'No' to doing the tactic.

Scarab Sages

Wesrolter wrote:

I think at this point, its more dependent on the player group you have.

Last time my group had to do travel, 3d6 they got 14 days. They shrugged and had some in game moaning about its length. So for my group, the whole drop out, jump back in hasn't been a problem so them knowing isn't an issue. They would also accept if I just said 'No' to doing the tactic.

This honestly is the case for most things one group of players will minmax, take advantage of obscure rules, try to guilt the GM then complain things are too easy. Another group will maximise their characters but focus on having fun the travel time from X to Y is long fine we have down time to relax as long as you don't make us roleplay the days in real time while another will focus on roleplaying choices even if they make their character weaker.

The hidden drift times could have been written when the first group was in the authors mind while the resonator was one the last group was in it. Or it could be that the players kept complaining about the travel times and were given the resonator to shut them up.


Wesrolter wrote:

I think at this point, its more dependent on the player group you have.

Last time my group had to do travel, 3d6 they got 14 days. They shrugged and had some in game moaning about its length. So for my group, the whole drop out, jump back in hasn't been a problem so them knowing isn't an issue. They would also accept if I just said 'No' to doing the tactic.

There's a significant difference between your player's being told the travel time and their character's knowing their travel time.

One is just allowing a tiny bit of metagaming for crafting and such. The other is asking why wouldn't a character drop out and retry their drift time when they know travel times are random and their course is taking them longer than the average flight? Why wouldn't a vesk invasion fleet spend a few hours dropping in and out of the drift trying to get a low travel time to the pact worlds during the silent war? Why wouldn't a merchant traveling from absalom back to their home in the vast spend up to a day popping in and out (one minute each time) to get the shortest possible travel time to save costs?

It's not just PCs that are affected by knowing their travel time. It's NPCs too.


Drift travel is less like distance and more like solving a rubix cube. You could look like you only have 1 square left to move but you actually have to re arrange everything to get that one square, or you could look completely messed up but you're really almost there.

Acquisitives

Garretmander wrote:


Why wouldn't a vesk invasion fleet spend a few hours dropping in and out of the drift trying to get a low travel time to the pact worlds during the silent war? Why wouldn't a merchant traveling from absalom back to their home in the vast spend up to a day popping in and out (one minute each time) to get the shortest possible travel time to save costs?

It's not just PCs that are affected by knowing their travel time. It's NPCs too.

As said before, because they don't know where they will pop out of the drift, it could be only a few meters away from their entry point or it could be right next to the Atzlanti Main Fleet or inside a Sun.


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Peg'giz wrote:
Garretmander wrote:


Why wouldn't a vesk invasion fleet spend a few hours dropping in and out of the drift trying to get a low travel time to the pact worlds during the silent war? Why wouldn't a merchant traveling from absalom back to their home in the vast spend up to a day popping in and out (one minute each time) to get the shortest possible travel time to save costs?

It's not just PCs that are affected by knowing their travel time. It's NPCs too.

As said before, because they don't know where they will pop out of the drift, it could be only a few meters away from their entry point or it could be right next to the Atzlanti Main Fleet or inside a Sun.

A) iirc, you can't exit the drift too close to a source of gravity like planets or suns.

B) I have some lottery tickets to sell you if you think coming out next to anything at all is a likely outcome considering all the empty space in a galaxy. Pretty sure the lottery tickets are the better bet actually.

Acquisitives

I just gave you ideas. It's up to you if you want to use them.
Sure if you go strictly by RAW then you can do this, but if you do this and also try to add real world logic to the world, there are other much bigger issues...

No game system is perfect. For my part I like to tell my players how long the journey will take and I would not allow them to do "Drift skipping" to get a better travel time. And why? Because I am the f... DM and doing so would f... up the game.


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Peg'giz wrote:

I just gave you ideas. It's up to you if you want to use them.

Sure if you go strictly by RAW then you can do this, but if you do this and also try to add real world logic to the world, there are other much bigger issues...

No game system is perfect. For my part I like to tell my players how long the journey will take and I would not allow them to do "Drift skipping" to get a better travel time. And why? Because I am the f... DM and doing so would f... up the game.

Sure, but there's also word building to consider. I like to have reasons beyond 'it would be bad for the game' for world building questions.

Acquisitives

I think you overthink the whole concept. Sure world building should be consistent, but there are already TONS of world building problems in EVERY SciFi/Fantasy setting.
And this is really a small one (as Drift travels are only a small part of the day-to-day gameplay). So I wouldn't really put much thinking into this.


The way I see it, there are two ways to reconcile the resonators with the idea that characters don't get to know how long their trip takes until they get there. Both ways make the interpretation that the resonators' effect is a passive one and not something the pilot is actively attending to get the effect.

The players get to know, and the pilot player rerolls X dice for the passive effect the resonator gives to reduce time in the Drift.

The DM keeps it all under the table and rolls the resonator dice on the pilot's behalf.

Personally, I like the idea that characters do know but that there are good reasons that people don't false start their Drift drives to get a more favorable travel time. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure the Monty Hall presents a logical extension where loads of people aware of the probability paradox would just automatically false start their drift drives anyway just to increase the chances they get lucky with a low travel time. For example, I would say that anytime someone drops out of Drift before reaching the destination point, they become lost and take the penalty that incurs.


Or you know, you start your drive today and you'll get the same result for the next month. You need to pass widdershins along a tangent to infinity and thats taking up more time whether you go today or tomorrow

Acquisitives

I like BNW explanation, it doesn't go against the lore, it sounds reasonable and you can explain it with technobabble.

"Each drift drive has a unique tachyon flux signature, which intaracts with the drift itself. When a ship enters the drift, this interaction defines the route for the ship (between area A & B). If the ship leaves the drift and re-enters it again, the drift drives tachyon flux signature intarcts with the Drift again and creates the same route again."

Also keep in mind that the drift is no ordinary plane, but the exclusive playground of one (or three^^) god. ;)

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