Is it just me, or are Small races awesome...?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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The Bestiary even admits that Kobolds really got screwed in PF1. Lol.

Kobolds have been in pretty much every edition of DnD, and have changed from rat-dogs to lizards... but never have they been hated on like PF1 has done them wrong. We could have hoped the change to being little dragons would have come with something cool, rather than such a cruel weakness.

Don't get me wrong, I love Kobolds. My favorite character ever was a Kobold.

But why? Why give them such a weakness? What design benefit or balance was achieved by doing that? PF1 really, REALLY doesn't want players having access to dragons. Kobolds are weak. All the drake companion options blow. It's just a dumb design choice, compared to embracing the fact that players are going to want access to cool dragon stuff in a fantasy game that involves dragons.


Oh thanks for the source, that's actually pretty neat! Just very obscure.

And you didn't sound snarky to me at all Mark, that was rather informative!

Now that we know advanced small monsters are a pain to deal with, i'm gonna submit something that's even more of a pain to deal with; Tiny Npcs with class level!

For real, the prelude to my current campaign has gremlins for antagonist and their chief is a 4th level Oracle of the flame Jinkin and it's honestly scary. It has crazy stealth, fairly high AC for its CR, and bunch of fire themed spells. I did give it some wizard spells to give it a more fiery spell list, such as scorching Ray and Flaming sphere, but still even pure oracle it would be a pain to deal with. Oh and icing on the cake; Jinkin gets Dimmension door once per hours, very good tool for a recuring villain.

Another tiny sized nightmare to fight at low level is the Twigjack :
- +22 stealth, good luck trying to avoid a surprise round.
- Teleportation as part of its movement. Good luck trying to follow it.
- A devastating splinter cone attack that deal 4d6 piercing damage. DC 14 reflex for half. Usable 3/day
- 2d6 sneak attack, for when the party is still not dead after being turned into pincushion.

One of my player banned me from ever using that monster again on threat that they would instantly ragequit lol.


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@Voodist: well, you wouldn't want kobolds competing with Paizo's precious babies, the Goblins, would you? Goblins get +4 to Dex for crying out loud. Then you add in all the goodies they get, possible mutations, their superior racial weapons... these things are CHAOTIC evil usually AND they are described over and over as having the attention spans of gnats, and THEY get a racial Reach weapon.

Kobolds get tail tippers, can make traps slightly better than most, and they get a few very tame dragon-themed support/utility powers. Meanwhile they start the game with stats like original Aunt May from the Spider Man comics. Kewl.

Ranks right up there with Halflings. They take a racial hit to strength, then they get racial proficiency with slings and slingstaves. Y'know, ranged weapons that rely on Str for damage? They can Climb better than most... except that also takes a hit from their lower Str score. They get Keen Senses, but they can't see in the dark in any capacity.

So, if you take NO alternate race traits... you're good at using a ranged weapon that takes 2 hands to load and loading is a Move action, only to deal lower base damage than Medium sized PCs and with a -1 penalty to static damage. Oh, but you'll want to free up one of those hands so you can carry a light to see by while you act as a premier rogue or sneaky type. And if you need to climb anywhere, you're a net +1 to your skill. Your saves are pretty good, and spectacular against Fear, but if you need to run into or out of battle you're slow as molasses in winter.

Its like 3x and then PF1 gave all the cool stuff to gnomes and couldn't figure out what to do with Halflings so they just kinda shrugged.


Mark Hoover 330 wrote:


I didn't realize this rule was obscure. This is the reason why I build kobolds at low to mid level with NPC class levels. For higher level threats, I always add class levels but a kobold CR 1 threat could have 4 NPC class levels.

I had remembered something like that from 3.5, but since it wasn't repeated in the Archives of Nethys, I was thinking that Pathfinder had dropped that part.


are small creatures better? They are worse in combat in general particularly on the damage dealing side of things.
Carrying capacity (encumbrance) and land speed are other hits.

It's more of a mixed bag for PCs... more and more of what a character does is enabled by Class and so race decreases in importance as class level increases.


My very first character was an archaeologist gnome. She died pretty quickly but that was more from me not knowing what I was doing than anything wrong with her.

And my longest running character was my halfling hunter. No one would ever accuse her of not doing enough damage.

I also tried to make a goblin character but I had too many class options I liked so I set it aside.

I think I small races because I like dex-to-damage so much. 90% of my characters are dex based, even though most of them are medium sized.


Halflings have definitely captured my attention, lately. And I think I would like to play one... I stole the Helpful trait via Adopted for my Kobold character (had the backstory to back it up, too). And using Aid Another as Hbob really opened my eyes to the utility of Aid Another, even with Hbob's only investment into using Aid Another was the Helpful trait and Combat Reflexes/Bodyguard.

Now, I know so much more about Aid Another, and knowing is half the battle (violence is the other half).

But, man, Treeborn Gathlains certainly have caught my eye, as well. Treeborn removes their Con penalty, and they already don't have a Strength penalty... so you are Small, with no Str or Con penalty, you can fly, and you can give them Body Thorns, which, when unarmored, act as Armor Spikes you are automatically proficient with... word. So many fun options with that.

I threw together a Treeborn Gathlain Flame Dancer-Flamesinger Bard VMC Sorcerer that I call my Fire Faerie... VMC Sorcerer for the Groveborn/Verdant Bloodline, which gives us Lush Summons. She gets Fire Music as a bonus feat from her archetype selection, and picks up Augment Summons along the way.

Fire Music + Lush Summoning + Augment Summons =
Fire Resist 5, +1 fire damage,
Natural Armor +2, +4 saves vs
Paralysis, Poison, Polymorph, Sleep, and
Stunning,
+4 Strength, +4 Constitution

She pops an Eversmoking Bottle, sings the Song of Fiery Gaze, and starts summoning monsters in the fog... her allies can see through the smoke just fine, and the fog follows the bottle hanging from her hip.


VoodistMonk wrote:
And using Aid Another as Hbob...

I'm going to skip all the build stuff to ask the important questions:

How do you pronounce Hbob?

I can't help but go with 'haytch-bob' in my head.


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The "H" is silent... it's just Bob.

If one was to pronounce the "H", the correct way to say the resulting name is "Hu-Bob".


VoodistMonk wrote:

The Bestiary even admits that Kobolds really got screwed in PF1. Lol.

Kobolds have been in pretty much every edition of DnD, and have changed from rat-dogs to lizards... but never have they been hated on like PF1 has done them wrong. We could have hoped the change to being little dragons would have come with something cool, rather than such a cruel weakness.

Don't get me wrong, I love Kobolds. My favorite character ever was a Kobold.

But why? Why give them such a weakness? What design benefit or balance was achieved by doing that? PF1 really, REALLY doesn't want players having access to dragons. Kobolds are weak. All the drake companion options blow. It's just a dumb design choice, compared to embracing the fact that players are going to want access to cool dragon stuff in a fantasy game that involves dragons.

Seriously! I agree so much, poor little guys needed some love, maybe a Kobolds of Golaron support book.

Simple things like a racial breath weapon that scales with level for uses per day or damage. Or a +10 to Tumble through enemy squares, or even a unique ranged weapon perfect for sniping from hidey holes (Ala-Tuckers Kobolds).
I could see it: 20ft cone/Line. 1d4/3 Class levels after first (Element of scales). 1/day or 3/day.
Kobold Double Darter: A complex contraption that can throw 2 Darts together at the same target as one attack action, full action reload. Treat as crossbow for feats. Cannot single fire the darts, 40ft range. Kobolds gain +2 attack with this weapon on a readied action. And can use it like a dagger/short sword on melee, because why not?

Goblins are the Superior Small race though. Roll-With-It on a Scout Rogue is unbelievably strong. Charge (possibly with Kitsune style for Dirty trick), sneak damage. Get hit, roll with it, staggered lets you charge for another sneak attack =p

Halfling Luck is the best thing about them, on an Archaeologist Bard with fates Favoured (Yay Chaldira), they can make impressive archers/slingers for good burst damage and reliable saves. I am building one now for a game actually, should be fun.


Yeah, if you just balanced Kobolds and Goblins, you might have two normal races. Lol.


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I wasn't necessarily saying that Small races are not powerful... there are certain combinations that more than make up for small-sized weapons. But the options that favor Small races seem to bring more flavor... in my opinion.

Like a Grippli Vexing Mouser. Lol. That is just fun. And sure, built/played "right", it more than makes up for the Grippli's size... or any other Small race with a climb speed, for that matter. Kobold Swarm Fighters with levels in Vexing Dodger can pretty easily work around their weaknesses, too. And that is just plain fun. Climbing all over your opponent, stabbing all their vital organs in alphabetical order, has a lot more fun flavor than just smashing it to bits.

Some of the Goblin stuff is hilarious as it is useful. Roll With It, come on, that's awesome! Goblins get Ragdoll Mutagen, too... which, when combined with the Mummification Discovery, allows Goblins to rain out of the sky, splatting on the ground, strangely unharmed.

I that fun factor is more appealing than killing something in one hit, persoanlly.


I love almost all of the small sized races for something. Except Wayangs (the art work for them is just too creepy to me).

Only played a halfling in 4E (maybe briefly in Kingmaker), so didn't quite realize how bad their mechanics are with most of their racially unique features/gear. Still love the concept of the halfling monk. And my first ever charcter was a halfling cleric. Good times.

Currently playing a Ratfolk that I rather enjoy.

I'm kind of a list/team/spectrum junky though. I dream of a party where the sizes range from Tiny to Huge, with each category represented. I'd also love to play something consistently/permanently Fine sized if I could swing it.

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