What do you want from a Lost Omens: The Golden Road?

[Evan Tarlton]

One of Thuvia's most interesting hooks is in how Artokus Kirran kind of feels trapped. The original bargain between himself, the nation and Pharasma has been... not broken but altered by Aroden's death. There was a point when all parties knew when it would end, and now they don't because prophecies are unreliable. Now, Artokus is in a terrible spot. He's clearly feeling his years, and he could probably end it at any time, but his nation still needs him. He needs that to change, and the sooner the better. That could be an interesting place for a particular style of campaign.

[keftiu]

What Ancestries to we expect to see in this? Obviously humans, elves, and dwarves, and I expect both some iruxi and maybe the return of playable shabti, but anything else?

I can’t help but want an anthropomorphic jackal or antelope option.

[PossibleCabbage]

I like it when Paizo surprises me. We didn't know anything about the Conrasu, the Shisk, or the Goloma before the Mwangi book, so "the people that only live here that outsiders might not have heard of" is generally what I'm looking for in terms of ancestries in a region book.

[vagrant-poet]

We know Keleshite is split into 6+ ethnicities, each of which had a cool little blurb in the Qadira book. And Garundi people in Rahadoum, Thuvia, Osirion, and Katapesh, as well as groups like Yerbira and the desert folk in Thuvia with the Water Lords.

Then there's Vourinoi elves, 4! dwarven ethnicities (Pahmet, Ouat, Paraheen, Vahird), Glimmer & Keenspark gnomes. Don't know about many Goblins in the Golden Road, and there's no explicit halflings, but they may be an extended part of the Cheliaxian halfling ethnicity that spans the Inner Sea area.

I don't expect Gnolls to be Common, because they're portrayed more antagonistically in the Golden Road.

I do suspect they might make the various geniekin Common here though. For as much as some people are not enthused about genies in the area.

[keftiu]

I’d honestly love to see some nuance for gnolls in the region, actually.

[Ellias Aubec]

Didn't the Legends book give prices around 70k for some of the latest sales? Some pure cash, some a combination of goods and services etc.

[CorvusMask]

70k is lot more in 2e than 1e as well x'D

[vagrant-poet]

I suspect there would be. But it'll be more like orcs in Belkzen where they are, for good or worse, Uncommon because they are seen as antagonisitic by the predominant human cultures, and while there are many individual exceptions, the ruling/warrior classes of those gnoll societies are often violent slave-takers when it comes to humans.

I feel like the Mwangi Expanse book allowed itself to be a much more open book, always willing to play with and invert tropes. While other meta-regions will have certain genre and trope beats they'll want to hit, and that are long-established canon that they'll frame with more nuance, but not totally re-write.

Genies, Egyptian Gods, slaver Gnolls, etc.

[Kasoh]

Ellias Aubec wrote:

Didn't the Legends book give prices around 70k for some of the latest sales? Some pure cash, some a combination of goods and services etc.

At the risk of continuing this digression I started...

What Lost Omens: Legends has to say on the matter:

Queen Abrogail Thrune II—75,000 gp: The queen purchased her first vial after recent turmoil in Cheliax.

Countess Carmilla Caliphvaso (LE female human aristocrat)—71,000 gp: The Ustalav countess insists that the next time she purchases the elixir, it must be hand delivered by “dear Artokus Kirran.”

Queen Galfrey of Mendev (LG female herald of Iomedae)—64,000 gp: The Mendevian people purchased the elixir for their queen twice before she abdicated to become a herald of Iomedae.

King Huang of Lingshen (LN male human fighter)—80,000 gp: The king sent two trusted generals with chests filled with magic weapons to purchase a vial

The Carmilla Caliphvaso and Galfrey of Mendev are the interesting ones here because I believe both of those are pre-second edition purchases, and the official paizo stance is, as best I recall, that we pretend that there was not a massive shift in value of objects between editions.

But, none of those purchases are substantially more than 50,000. I was surprised that none of them breached 100,000.

Of course, a +3 Major Striking weapon is 40k now and a level 19 item to boot. So, regardless, the elixir is selling for near the wealth cap of most high level PCs now.

[Rysky]

P2 uses the silver standard, not gold.

For P1 prices comparing add a zero. So for Queen Galfrey that would be 640,000g by P1 standards.

[NECR0G1ANT]

keftiu wrote:

What Ancestries to we expect to see in this? Obviously humans, elves, and dwarves, and I expect both some iruxi and maybe the return of playable shabti, but anything else?

I can’t help but want an anthropomorphic jackal or antelope option.

I don't know about new ancestries, but in addition to what you listed I expect more options for gnolls and geniekin.

[Kasoh]

Rysky wrote:

P2 uses the silver standard, not gold.

For P1 prices comparing add a zero. So for Queen Galfrey that would be 640,000g by P1 standards.

And yet, silver ceases to be a meaningful coinage after level 1 anyway.

The PF1 guidance on the elixir said at least 50,000. And in second edition we see that number born out with repeated purchases around there. The change in value of money is player facing, not in world changes.

All I'm saying is that if we're playing "The Price is Right" 50,000 is a better bid than 640,000.

[Darth Game Master]

vagrant-poet wrote:

Don't know about many Goblins in the Golden Road, and there's no explicit halflings, but they may be an extended part of the Cheliaxian halfling ethnicity that spans the Inner Sea area.

Isn't there a group of halflings in the Barrier Wall? Mwangi Expanse didn't mention them, so a Golden Road book might be the one to do that.

[vagrant-poet]

Darth Game Master wrote:

vagrant-poet wrote:

Don't know about many Goblins in the Golden Road, and there's no explicit halflings, but they may be an extended part of the Cheliaxian halfling ethnicity that spans the Inner Sea area.

Isn't there a group of halflings in the Barrier Wall? Mwangi Expanse didn't mention them, so a Golden Road book might be the one to do that.

Jaric! Yes, I forgot! They're kind of cool. I suspect they'd be awesome with a full treatment.

[CorvusMask]

Kasoh wrote:

Rysky wrote:

P2 uses the silver standard, not gold.

For P1 prices comparing add a zero. So for Queen Galfrey that would be 640,000g by P1 standards.

And yet, silver ceases to be a meaningful coinage after level 1 anyway.

The PF1 guidance on the elixir said at least 50,000. And in second edition we see that number born out with repeated purchases around there. The change in value of money is player facing, not in world changes.

All I'm saying is that if we're playing "The Price is Right" 50,000 is a better bid than 640,000.

I mean its that confusing issue where 1e items are mostly extremely overpriced, like "this character is full of item where every single one of them is equal to national budget of small country" over priced.

50,000 gp converted to 2e is about same amount yeah, but its actually extremely expensive in 2e player standards while in 1e player standards its ridiculously cheap.

Like like... 2e elixir "shouldn't" be 100k, its more of that most 1e items shouldn't have been as expensive as they were

[Kasoh]

CorvusMask wrote:

I mean its that confusing issue where 1e items are mostly extremely overpriced, like "this character is full of item where every single one of them is equal to national budget of small country" over priced.

50,000 gp converted to 2e is about same amount yeah, but its actually extremely expensive in 2e player standards while in 1e player standards its ridiculously cheap.

Like like... 2e elixir "shouldn't" be 100k, its more of that most 1e items shouldn't have been as expensive as they were

True. I found it amusing that doubling your expected life duration cost less than a belt of physical perfection +4, but overall the pricing of magic items isn't the most interesting part of it.

The entire economy of Thuvia is based around the sale of six vials of the Elixir every year. If the winning bids are of a similar vein to the ones listed in Lost Omen Legends The winning bids bring in around 400,000 gp. (plus two more vials of at least 50,000) Plus whatever the losers bid. That losers bid is where Thuvia is really making its money, but we don't know how many people attend the auction. If its 30 that adds (26*50000 adds another 1.3 million gp) a lot of money. But it does give us an idea of what it costs to run a country for a year in Pathfinder GP (Of course, presuming fiscal responsibility. Thuvia could be grossly inefficient due to the flagerant wealth they have). I could read a whole book on Thuvia's economy and fiscal policy. No one would ever print that book, but if we're going to devote pages to the Golden Roads nations I'd like to see it expanded upon.

[keftiu]

vagrant-poet wrote:

I suspect there would be. But it'll be more like orcs in Belkzen where they are, for good or worse, Uncommon because they are seen as antagonisitic by the predominant human cultures, and while there are many individual exceptions, the ruling/warrior classes of those gnoll societies are often violent slave-takers when it comes to humans.

I feel like the Mwangi Expanse book allowed itself to be a much more open book, always willing to play with and invert tropes. While other meta-regions will have certain genre and trope beats they'll want to hit, and that are long-established canon that they'll frame with more nuance, but not totally re-write.

Genies, Egyptian Gods, slaver Gnolls, etc.

Why would the Mwangi book be the only one where they get away from fraught and/or straightforward old canon? I wouldn’t buy a Lost Omens book that just regurgitated tired tropes and previous canon at me, and presenting the world as less black and white seems to be a major lore focus in 2e.

[Paradozen]

This might be a topic better suited for Book of the Dead but also would fit in a book about Osirion, what's going on with the name of Geb? Geb, the ghost-king of the nation of Geb and former member of the ancient osirion empire, has the same name as an egyptian god the earth. Geb, the egyptian god of the earth, is missing from the ancient osirion pantheon. Is there a reason for that, or is it just that things are confusing enough with Geb (the ghost) and Geb (the nation) without introducing Geb (the god)?

[vagrant-poet]

keftiu wrote:

vagrant-poet wrote:

I suspect there would be. But it'll be more like orcs in Belkzen where they are, for good or worse, Uncommon because they are seen as antagonisitic by the predominant human cultures, and while there are many individual exceptions, the ruling/warrior classes of those gnoll societies are often violent slave-takers when it comes to humans.

I feel like the Mwangi Expanse book allowed itself to be a much more open book, always willing to play with and invert tropes. While other meta-regions will have certain genre and trope beats they'll want to hit, and that are long-established canon that they'll frame with more nuance, but not totally re-write.

Genies, Egyptian Gods, slaver Gnolls, etc.

Why would the Mwangi book be the only one where they get away from fraught and/or straightforward old canon? I wouldn’t buy a Lost Omens book that just regurgitated tired tropes and previous canon at me, and presenting the world as less black and white seems to be a major lore focus in 2e.

That's not really what I'm suggesting, and I wouldn't really be interested in that product. I want nuance.

I'd love to see the entire line being sweeping updates/details, written by people with real ties to the cultures and stories that inspired the regions, and examining and confronting the many, many dodgy tropes of fantasy head on.

I just think we're likely to see more "add-nuance" than, fully remove existing elements.

[TheDoomBug]

keftiu wrote:

What Ancestries to we expect to see in this? Obviously humans, elves, and dwarves, and I expect both some iruxi and maybe the return of playable shabti, but anything else?

I can’t help but want an anthropomorphic jackal or antelope option.

Yes, please. How about Girtablilu? The size/centaur-build may block them though. Would love something scorpion-based though.

Not for playablity, but I'd love to hear more about sphinxes and their interactions with humanoids.

And put me down for that Osirian struggle of a modern nation and the ancient history it is built upon.

[Lonesomechunk]

getting to see more of Thuvia and Rahadoum is something I'd like to see. The information about the medical advancements in Rahadoum from the World Guide and Lost Omens Legends has me intrigued, and Thuvia is like, the home of alchemy so it could be a really fun opportunity to add some alchemist items or feats while expanding on the region

(also seconding a more nuanced look at gnolls and katapesh. I like katapesh a lot but I do sometimes wish its execution had a bit more tact and nuance to it since it feels rather stereotypical and I'd love to see more of that veiled masters plotline and other stuff brought up again)

[Evan Tarlton]

Kasoh wrote:

True. I found it amusing that doubling your expected life duration cost less than a belt of physical perfection +4, but overall the pricing of magic items isn't the most interesting part of it.

The entire economy of Thuvia is based around the sale of six vials of the Elixir every year. If the winning bids are of a similar vein to the ones listed in Lost Omen Legends The winning bids bring in around 400,000 gp. (plus two more vials of at least 50,000) Plus whatever the losers bid. That losers bid is where Thuvia is really making its money, but we don't know how many people attend the auction. If its 30 that adds (26*50000 adds another 1.3 million gp) a lot of money. But it does give us an idea of what it costs to run a country for a year in Pathfinder GP (Of course, presuming fiscal responsibility. Thuvia could be grossly inefficient due to the flagerant wealth they have). I could read a whole book on Thuvia's economy and fiscal policy. No one would ever print that book, but if we're going to devote pages to the Golden Roads nations I'd like to see it expanded upon.

If I were to do Thuvia, I would make this the crux of the problem. The elixir brings in enough wealth that it should have been able to wean itself off of the elixir by now, but short-sightedness and mismanagement have stopped that from happening. Partly because that much wealth can make it hard to see the bigger picture, and partly because (I suspect) some people don't want to abandon the confirmed gold mine that is the elixir in favour of things unproven. This would be part of why Artokus is in his bind. He could threaten to go on strike, but Pharasma would likely see that as him abandoning the deal if he followed through. He would be claimed in short order, and his judgement fast-tracked. All he can do is sit and stew, unless someone can find a few golden geese (and this is where the PCs would come in).

[Rysky]

I wouldn't consider that short-sidedness, what reason would they have to stop selling the elixir?

Also I don't think portraying one of the economic focused countries as economically incompetent would go over well.

[Kasoh]

Placing the entire income of the nation onto a relatively small export, a luxury good for the elite and ultra powerful, does seem like a dubious proposition for long term development. If someone else invents a cheaper Sun Orchid knockoff, Thuvia is in for a catastrophic economic downturn. There have already been adventures where shipments of elixir go missing and that's bad enough. All it would really take to ruin Thuvia's economy is a wizard who casts Wish for 25000 a casting to restore people to young age. (Granted people who can cast Wish are few and far between, so not a likely outcome. Which is why Thuvia probably doesn't bother thinking about losing their monopoly on de-aging.)

A country in such a position might hopefully be carefully balancing its expenses so as to have stores ready for lean times, but really, its more likely that the majority of government officials spend it as soon as it gets to their hands. Then again, this also depends on how rich Thuvia actually is. If the Elixir money is just enough to keep the country going then there probably isn't an issue. If Thuvia has a large surplus of cash every year I'd expect to see lavish public works projects, magnificent government buildings, elaborate compensation packages and all the usual signs of corruption--not because Thuvia is bad with money, but because people are people and that's the likely outcome. Thuvia could be a country who provides its citizens with universal basic income, but then the pressure to keep that kind of money rolling in becomes intense.

We have seen shades of it. In Legends, its mentioned that Sun Orchids are getting harder to find and Artokus is amenable to Thuvia having an economy not based on his work. Hopefully, its an organized movement and that's where the majority of excess Elixir funds go: subsidizing new industries in Thuvia.

[Paradozen]

Kasoh wrote:

Placing the entire income of the nation onto a relatively small export, a luxury good for the elite and ultra powerful, does seem like a dubious proposition for long term development. If someone else invents a cheaper Sun Orchid knockoff, Thuvia is in for a catastrophic economic downturn. There have already been adventures where shipments of elixir go missing and that's bad enough. All it would really take to ruin Thuvia's economy is a wizard who casts Wish for 25000 a casting to restore people to young age. (Granted people who can cast Wish are few and far between, so not a likely outcome. Which is why Thuvia probably doesn't bother thinking about losing their monopoly on de-aging.)

Restoring youth produces an effect in line with a 20th level consumable, arguably stronger than a 9th level arcane spell or 7th level other spell, so it might be dangerous or have only a partial effect. Sun Orchid Elixirs have a much better success rate; wish is infamous for going wrong. I don't think Wish will be the thing that endangers Thuvia's economy.

[Kasoh]

Paradozen wrote:

Restoring youth produces an effect in line with a 20th level consumable, arguably stronger than a 9th level arcane spell or 7th level other spell, so it might be dangerous or have only a partial effect. Sun Orchid Elixirs have a much better success rate; wish is infamous for going wrong. I don't think Wish will be the thing that endangers Thuvia's economy.

Eh. I'd call it pseudo duplicating the effect of a reincarnate ritual with a predetermined outcome. Well within the bounds of Wish. If that's the story the GM is telling, then the Wish would work. If its a PC trying shenanigans, then its dependent on what the PCs are actually supposed to be doing. I doubt "Razmir goes to Thuvia to rain on their parade because he can't buy a Sun Orchid Elixir" is the AP anyone wants to play. (I forget what level Razmir actually is. 17? 19? Eh.)

[Paradozen]

Kasoh wrote:

Paradozen wrote:

Restoring youth produces an effect in line with a 20th level consumable, arguably stronger than a 9th level arcane spell or 7th level other spell, so it might be dangerous or have only a partial effect. Sun Orchid Elixirs have a much better success rate; wish is infamous for going wrong. I don't think Wish will be the thing that endangers Thuvia's economy.

Eh. I'd call it pseudo duplicating the effect of a reincarnate ritual with a predetermined outcome. Well within the bounds of Wish. If that's the story the GM is telling, then the Wish would work. If its a PC trying shenanigans, then its dependent on what the PCs are actually supposed to be doing. I doubt "Razmir goes to Thuvia to rain on their parade because he can't buy a Sun Orchid Elixir" is the AP anyone wants to play. (I forget what level Razmir actually is. 17? 19? Eh.)

I think it's unclear, and the wealthy and powerful would have cause to hesitate. Reincarnate has a lot of risks that the Sun Orchid Elixir avoids, and Wishing for Reincarnate after level 17 is explicitly beyond the power of Wish (it's literally more than a 7th level non-arcane spell). The reliability of the Elixir will probably justify it having a much higher price than a wish for its effects.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Kasoh wrote:

Paradozen wrote:

Restoring youth produces an effect in line with a 20th level consumable, arguably stronger than a 9th level arcane spell or 7th level other spell, so it might be dangerous or have only a partial effect. Sun Orchid Elixirs have a much better success rate; wish is infamous for going wrong. I don't think Wish will be the thing that endangers Thuvia's economy.

Eh. I'd call it pseudo duplicating the effect of a reincarnate ritual with a predetermined outcome. Well within the bounds of Wish. If that's the story the GM is telling, then the Wish would work. If its a PC trying shenanigans, then its dependent on what the PCs are actually supposed to be doing. I doubt "Razmir goes to Thuvia to rain on their parade because he can't buy a Sun Orchid Elixir" is the AP anyone wants to play. (I forget what level Razmir actually is. 17? 19? Eh.)

I don't believe that reproducing the effects of a ritual with increased benefits and none of the drawbacks is a standard, intended function if any wish-tier magic. I'll grant you that it seems within reason for a Primal caster to be able to manipulate a target's age with some top-tier magic, but that is not entirely the same as buying a draft of youth elixir.

[Kasoh]

You know that magic was nerfed when "I don't think Wish can do that" is a serious discussion. Rather than get into that, you can assume any other form of a similar service.

Anyway, the introduction of a competing product is a serious threat to Thuvia's entire way of life. I'd be interested to see if there's a dark side to this where Thuvia hunts down people trying to horn in on their market.

[PossibleCabbage]

How many, non-PC people in the world of Golarion can actually cast Wish? From everything I can recall, the various important people in various nations are not that high level, and Wish isn't available prior to level 19 (so Razmir can do it, sure, but who else?)

Plus, the Wish "nerf" is balanced by "you no longer need an enormous pile of diamonds to exert your will on reality" which IMO is a major improvement to the spell.

[NECR0G1ANT]

Kasoh wrote:

Placing the entire income of the nation onto a relatively small export, a luxury good for the elite and ultra powerful, does seem like a dubious proposition for long term development. If someone else invents a cheaper Sun Orchid knockoff, Thuvia is in for a catastrophic economic downturn. There have already been adventures where shipments of elixir go missing and that's bad enough. All it would really take to ruin Thuvia's economy is a wizard who casts Wish for 25000 a casting to restore people to young age. (Granted people who can cast Wish are few and far between, so not a likely outcome. Which is why Thuvia probably doesn't bother thinking about losing their monopoly on de-aging.)

If wish were a substitute for the sun orchid elixir, then why would Razmir be so desperate to purchase it?

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Kasoh wrote:

You know that magic was nerfed when "I don't think Wish can do that" is a serious discussion. Rather than get into that, you can assume any other form of a similar service.

Anyway, the introduction of a competing product is a serious threat to Thuvia's entire way of life. I'd be interested to see if there's a dark side to this where Thuvia hunts down people trying to horn in on their market.

I don't want to derail by getting too off-topic, but I don't think this is the indictment of magic you think it is. Wish has always had limitations what was possible using mortal magic, which just so happen to line up with 'duplicating any spell in your field' and 'duplicating all but the most advance spells in any field'. In point of fact, 1e Wish could not even resurrect somebody whose body had been destroyed--it required two wishes, one to wish the body back into shape and one to perform the resurrection, each of course requiring a chest full of diamonds in components.

Anything greater than that continues to be in the realm of GM judgement, which in 1e was explicitly called out as potentially dangerous. Wish did not give you the powers of a deity in 1e and that hasn't changed.

[Morhek]

Paradozen wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

Main problem with Osirion as it exists in setting is this: So what IS modern Osirion? Meta wise its setup for "why there are unexplored ruins whose history has been lost who were made my people of this country". Its country that used to be super power who got into decline and eventually puppeted by modern powers until they reclaimed control. But how did culture change under 3000 years of Qadiran rule? That type of questions we haven't ever really gotten answer to. We know that Ancient Osirion is quite different culture wise from modern one, but how we don't actually know that much. I assume Mummy's Mask might have city gazetteers that give more light to this, but I haven't read Mummy's Mask since I want to play it soooo yeah :'D

Without getting into spoilers, Mummy's Mask doesn't give a ton of insight in this regard IMO. At its core it is a story about dealing with ancient problems dug up from the past rather than one about modern people dealing with modern problems that connect to their history. I'm GMing it right now and it's an interesting story, but I think it misses the nuance and complexity that it could have if the perspective of the writing was positioned as Osirian people exploring their own cultural history. Instead it reads as outsiders exploring Osirion and its problems.

Based on some of the history of Wati and Tephu (and I don't think this is a huge spoiler) Pharaonic culture continued to flourish in some form at least a thousand years after the Keleshites took over, and was clearly kept alive enough to roar back to life when Khemet I took over. My explanation for this, and what I'm running with for my own game, is that like the Hyksos "invasion," most of the north was under the Keleshite thumb - the port cities of Totra and El-Shelad, Sothis and Shiman-Sekh - but that further from their cultural enclaves, the southern half of the country - An, Tephu, Wati and Ipeq - managed to stay relatively autonomous, and were mostly left alone as long as they paid the Satrap's/Sultan's taxes and staffed their army. So Khemet's return is less like Alexander sailing up-river into Memphis, and more like Ahmose sailing down-river into Avaris. This is my explanation for why Osiriani culture was able to re-emerge so quickly (it was being spread from the south up, adopted by people eager to please the new Pharaoh and spite the unpopular keleshites), rather than being a top-down imposition by the elites. Otherwise, I'm trying to contextualise Khemet III's reign with what I know of Egypt's break with the Ottoman Empire, blended with the post-Hyksos New Kingdom with elements of Ptolemaic Egypt. And thankfully, my players all voluntarily and happily decided to play characters from Osirion or places that were once Osiriani territories, avoiding the colonialist tropes it plays up.

If there's something I'd like to see in a Golden Road source book about Osirion, it's to emphasise some more of Osirion's history under the Sultanate and make it clear that the Keleshite Satraps/Caliphs/Sultans had just as much history in and connection to Osirion as the Pharaohs did, they had their own dynasties and wise kings and tyrants and builders who built their own monuments, tombs, palaces, city districts and settlements, and that the cultural differences between the Keleshite-ruled north and relict Osiriani south are still being felt, rather than reducing it to an ethnic tension between keleshites and garundi. It would also be neat to expand on the elemental and genie-kin clans who live in the desert, as well as the sand-orcs/sandkin half-orcs, Vourinoi elves, Yerbira humans, Jaric halflings, and gnolls. What I know of desert orcs is interesting stuff, and not having Belkzen as a regional threat it makes sense to me that orcs in northern garund would mostly be seen as just one of many desert peoples who live there - potentially nasty, but if approached with tact, respect and money, happy to talk, trade or fight for you. I think it's hinted in Legacy of Pharaohs that orcs once ruled what is now Katapesh alongside the gnolls, but were driven to extinction by the Pharaohs' conquest, leaving only their half-orc descendants in the region, which would be disappointing to keep.

[Set]

keftiu wrote:

I also do want to see non-alchemy hooks for Thuvia, to make it a little more than The Alchemy Place. I would looove political feuding between the five city-states, and to have some character concepts from the region that don’t care about the Sun Orchid at all.

The notion from Dragons of Golarion, way, way back, that Thuvia had multiple blue dragons claiming territories in the desert around various oases, charging to access the waters under their dominion, really intrigued me, and I'd love to see more of that expanded upon, as Darlaxyl and Mengkare are the only two dragons to really have an impact on the Inner Sea area, and both are kind of big massive end-boss types that conclude a campaign. Some less 'rawr!' dragons interacting with local politics and communities could be interesting.

But yes, more unique Thuvian alchemy, or even some retconning that traditional alchemical formulations like alchemical fire were created / refined in Thuvia, could be neat. (Just renaming alchemical fire in one's games 'Thuvian fire' could be one way of playing up that connection. Alchemists all over the world have their own formula, and it's not some great secret you have to go to Thuvia to learn, but it's still called 'Thuvian fire' in the Inner Sea, because 'that's where it's from.')

[Alex Kaeda]

I don't know what id want in that book; or rather - I wouldn't want to read it (at first).

Before you get your chainmail pantaloons all up in a twist, I'd rather have an adventure path that explores it and takes the players in a journal. And I'd like "my" GM to run us through it while I (playing a character who met my current character) chronicle the journey. Then, the adventure path, the setting book, and the chronicle all are published together.

Paizo, give me a call, eh? I'm sure we can make this happen.

[keftiu]

Alex Kaeda wrote:

I don't know what id want in that book; or rather - I wouldn't want to read it (at first).

Before you get your chainmail pantaloons all up in a twist, I'd rather have an adventure path that explores it and takes the players in a journal. And I'd like "my" GM to run us through it while I (playing a character who met my current character) chronicle the journey. Then, the adventure path, the setting book, and the chronicle all are published together.

Paizo, give me a call, eh? I'm sure we can make this happen.

This sounds like it’s assuming the perspective of outsiders to the region, which would make me miserable - and after the Mwangi book, I don’t expect that perspective from Paizo in 2e. The region isn’t some untamed frontier that needs exploring, it’s a place lots of cultures and nations have called home for thousands of years.

Give me a guide to being /from/ there, please.

[PossibleCabbage]

I mean, from a player perspective, the most useful thing about a setting book is to inform characters who are from that place, so the player is aware of things that anybody from that place would know.

A pure "this is a mysterious place" sort of thing is only really appropriate for a GM facing thing like an adventure. But a place doesn't really fall into the "uncharted territory" territory if there are already people living there.

So like a remote island inhabited by cyclopes that no human has visited since the fall of Azlant? That's fine for a "learn about this place by adventuring there" sort of thing, but a region that has hosted human etc. civilization for thousands of years is a weird choice for that.

[NECR0G1ANT]

Alex Kaeda wrote:

I don't know what id want in that book; or rather - I wouldn't want to read it (at first).

Before you get your chainmail pantaloons all up in a twist, I'd rather have an adventure path that explores it and takes the players in a journal. And I'd like "my" GM to run us through it while I (playing a character who met my current character) chronicle the journey. Then, the adventure path, the setting book, and the chronicle all are published together.

Paizo, give me a call, eh? I'm sure we can make this happen.

Paizo does occasionally publish a setting book to match the area an Adventure Path is set in, but not always. I don't think Paizo will ever publish a player's campaign journal.

[keftiu]

YawarFiesta wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Slavery is evil, in both this world and Golarion, having a different cultural name for taking away someone’s right and humanity doesn’t diminish that.

Yeah, but slavery is not different from serfdom. There were nice masters and nice Lords as there cruel masters and Lords, but neither slaves nor serfs own themsleves. Yet I don't see much people complaining about PCs potentially having nobility titles.

Also, while deffinitely evil by today standars, there was a time in which slavery was a "merciful" moral innovation, with the previous alternative being the genocide of the defeated.

I'm really profoundly interested in slavery apologia. Merciful? There's always more options on the table than death or enslavement, and acting like the past was uniformly some brutal, murderous nightmare does no one any favors.

It also doesn't have much bearing on Pathfinder, where slavery is /definitively/ evil. I'm not sure what mentioning this is supposed to inspire - do you expect us to go "You're right, slavery isn't that bad after all"?

[Rysky]

I as well Question why someone was so inclined to respond to a post from 3 months ago that slavery is bad to try and debate that.

[keftiu]

If we do want to necro this thread - what's the temperature on the Pure Legion, as it currently stands?

I think Rahadoum's atheism is fascinating in the context of a fantasy setting with extant and active gods, and I appreciate that their culture broadly focusing on what they pursue instead of the divine (science, alchemy, arcane magic) over them just being smug or militant atheists. The Legion's place as an elite vanguard of warriors and spies is fascinating, but I do worry about the inherent implications of having the main atheists on the planet also be a place with an oppressive secret police... I don't personally love it, as it feels like it centers stories of the marginalized faithful.

Would love to be sold on it.

[Rysky]

You necroed a post for no other point than to "well AKSHULLY" a slavery argument.

[Rysky]

Edit: edited as the post it was responding to was deleted.

For a new post, not really.

[Kasoh]

keftiu wrote:

If we do want to necro this thread - what's the temperature on the Pure Legion, as it currently stands?

I think Rahadoum's atheism is fascinating in the context of a fantasy setting with extant and active gods, and I appreciate that their culture broadly focusing on what they pursue instead of the divine (science, alchemy, arcane magic) over them just being smug or militant atheists. The Legion's place as an elite vanguard of warriors and spies is fascinating, but I do worry about the inherent implications of having the main atheists on the planet also be a place with an oppressive secret police... I don't personally love it, as it feels like it centers stories of the marginalized faithful.

Would love to be sold on it.

The Pure Legion are villains. Rahadoum is a nation that will be cast as villains because its an oppressive state.

I mean, I get why Rahadoum went the way they did. And its interesting that they research advanced medicine and alchemy because they don't rely on divine magic.

But being interesting and science positive doesn't make them not villains. Its also the kind of villainy you have to opt into. You only have problems with Rahadoum if you go to Rahadoum. The country is not very expansionist. They might clash with Cheliax over the Arch of Aroden, but they largely keep to themselves. Is that because they can't expand due to the problems at home created by not relying on divine magic like the rest of the world? Probably not, can't say.

That does mean, however, that conflict with Rahadoum usually comes from people in Rahadoum who want to worship deities, and then they're rebels against a tyrannical state.

Like the city of Promise, Rahadoum feels like a place that was written to subvert some kind of expectation and Paizo won't commit on saying 'Yeah, this is bad. These are bad guys.' (caveat, I know James Jacobs once said that Rahadoum serves best as antagonists in an interesting LN sort of way.)

But they are.

Of course, that's not from a local perspective. Like the Mwangi Expanse book, I suspect that most location books will be written not as outsiders looking in but as being part of that culture. But then we're in two different camps. The oppressed believers and the privileged enforcers of the status quo. And we're back to 'Cool motive, still oppression.'

An interesting angle is the loss of local traditions. Local culture always influences the worship of any particular religion. With religion outlawed, those things go away and can be lost, especially in more rural communities. Maybe some festivals and celebrations survive post athiesm, but they'll be different. The flip side is that sometimes, religious traditions are awful and encourage foul conduct. (Maybe not so much in Golarion where a Good god does not prescibe evil practices, but we can see the dust ups every time Erastil is mentioned so...) So maybe its better in some ways too.

Maybe Rahadoum has less cults of demon lords or Dark Tapestry nonsense because the Pure Legion is really good at what they do. That'd be an interesting place to go.

Or, some Mythos stuff. Using science to seek answers to the unknowable can lead to some dangerous places in a universe where The Great Old Ones are very real.

Also, I think the 2e separation of spell lists watered it down a little, because Primal and Occult do almost everything the Divine list can do, so either Rahadoum needs to expand its oppression to keep on fulfilling its niche or the entire novelty of the place is suspect. (Unless they did and I wasn't looking, which I suppose is possible.)

[keftiu]

2e Rahadoum has been described as embracing primal magic to help deal with desertification; there’s a very good short story about a Pure Legion officer being like “Are you suuure this isn’t religion?” to a druid.

I don’t know that I would agree that Rahadoum is a villainous nation; they’ve never had Evil in their statblock, and I think “we don’t do faith here” is an acceptable value for a culture to hold.