3 - King of the Mountain (GM Reference)

[Luis Loza]

This is a spoiler-filled resource thread for the third and final volume of the Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Adventure Path, King of the Mountain by James Case.

The GM Reference thread for the first volume, Despair on Danger Island, is here.

The GM Reference thread for the second volume, Ready? Fight!, is here.

[The Rot Grub]

HOLY CRAP that ending! Any idea how PCs can survive that? That's two Extreme encounters back to back!

I think I will telegraph to my players about that final development happening, and to play up that this is inspired by JRPGs. (So they don't blow all their resources too early.)

This looks to be the most combat-heavy Paizo AP to date. I'm looking forward to it!

[thewastedwalrus]

Is Shino Hakusa Tian-Min or Tian-Shu? In book 1 she's listed as Tian-Shu but in book 3 she's listed as Tian-Min, not sure if I'm missing something or if it's a minor typo.

[keftiu]

The Rot Grub wrote:

HOLY CRAP that ending! Any idea how PCs can survive that? That's two Extreme encounters back to back!

I think I will telegraph to my players about that final development happening, and to play up that this is inspired by JRPGs. (So they don't blow all their resources too early.)

This looks to be the most combat-heavy Paizo AP to date. I'm looking forward to it!

Mind cluing some of us in to what the big finale is?

[The Rot Grub]

keftiu wrote:

The Rot Grub wrote:

HOLY CRAP that ending! Any idea how PCs can survive that? That's two Extreme encounters back to back!

I think I will telegraph to my players about that final development happening, and to play up that this is inspired by JRPGs. (So they don't blow all their resources too early.)

This looks to be the most combat-heavy Paizo AP to date. I'm looking forward to it!

Mind cluing some of us in to what the big finale is?

The party fights two copies of the final boss, each of them Level 22. After you defeat him, he enters his "final form" and becomes this giant flying tentacles freak of nature in a flowing robe, the walls fall away and you're all floating in space... If you look up the final battle against Sephiroth in Final Fantasy 7 you'll get the idea. Oh and his final form is Level 24 so another Extreme encounter.

[Calpal]

The Rot Grub wrote:

HOLY CRAP that ending! Any idea how PCs can survive that? That's two Extreme encounters back to back!

I think I will telegraph to my players about that final development happening, and to play up that this is inspired by JRPGs. (So they don't blow all their resources too early.)

This looks to be the most combat-heavy Paizo AP to date. I'm looking forward to it!

I actually just read those two encounters a bit more in detail last night (just skimmed them before). Had the same though. It's going to be brutes but I think that will be fun! Honestly, if they lose maybe he whisks them to some other demi-plane or something and they have to fight their way back to him.

[Dragonchess Player]

I just want to say "nice Easter Egg" reference in the Lost Demiplanes chapter in the Arvalek's Lament description and the journal entries.

Spoiler:

Esengrit's Tome of Making, crowned fox motif, trapped demiplane... *laughter*

[KingTreyIII]

So, two small things that are bothering me:

First, there’s a random, kinda throwaway line saying how the Lightkeepers got to Syndara’s Island in the Solar Jian I, which…I thought that that was among Hao Jin’s collection, which is only supposed to be accessed by winners of the tournament. I haven’t fully finished reading the adventure yet, but a basic search seems to indicate that this isn’t expanded upon how the Lightkeepers got the Solar Jian I.

Second, and this is really a minor nitpick, but there isn’t a scale for the map of Syndara’s Island; we have no idea how bit it is.

EDIT: Also, how are GMs expected to run E5? There isn't a map for any of it and there's no indication of how far across each part of it (E5a, E5b, etc.) is, but it references stuff like "10 points of damage for every square moved into."

[Grankless]

I believe it was the Solar Jian II that's in her vault, and got taken out - the I was probably considered "lost".

[KingTreyIII]

Maybe I should have read the adventure fully before posting...

Page 38 wrote:

The map [of Syndara's Island] purposefully does not include a scale; the mutable and unpredictable nature of time and space on Syndara’s Island makes calculating distance both impossible and largely unnecessary.

So Syndara, as the effective god of this demiplane, basically stretched out the island that he stole to be as big as was necessary.

[UpliftedBearBramble]

KingTreyIII wrote:

So, two small things that are bothering me:

First, there’s a random, kinda throwaway line saying how the Lightkeepers got to Syndara’s Island in the Solar Jian I, which…I thought that that was among Hao Jin’s collection, which is only supposed to be accessed by winners of the tournament.

The Solar Jin I was on display in the Lantern Lodge along with several other artifacts during Chapter 1 Book 2. Another of which is taken by Lady QMS to give to the PCs.

During the destruction of Goka and Final King M it is implied the Lightbearers stole it to make their escape from display on the pathfinder's base. (Pathfinders were probably helping evacuate people at the time, or they were blind sided during the chaos and had it taken from under them while trying to use it to evacuate people.)

The one for use after the Tournament is the Solar Jin II still in the vault as Grankless mentioned. That's the PC's ticket to Dragon Ball Z style Senanagens.

[hyphz]

As we're starting, two concerns:

a) what happens if the PCs fail the checks to read the writing on the statues near where the land, so they never know about the Celestial Dragon?

b) what happens if the PCs decide their wish should be "bring Hao Jin back?"

Edit: also, is it correct that the Abbot does not have Nine Seals Spellcasting? This could make sense, but makes Falling Sal Stance much worse.

[hyphz]

Also: one of the temple chores asks the PC to catch a yak. The yak is described as moving at “40 foot a *round*”. Because there are three move actions in a round, this is actually extremely slow - Speed 13.3 - and can be trivially caught by most PCs. Was this meant to be that it is Speed 40?

[GM OfAnything]

The PCs don't need to make a check to learn about the Celestial Dragon.

pg. 9 wrote:

These statues are in excellent repair and require no additional check to uncover the following three inscriptions.

The PCs would know that just bringing Hao Jin back is not a permanent solution. The forces that captured her could strike again and there is no guarantee the Celestial Dragon would grant a second wish to rescue her. The only viable solution is to breach the demiplane and defeat the forces within.

hyphz wrote:

Also: one of the temple chores asks the PC to catch a yak. The yak is described as moving at “40 foot a *round*”. Because there are three move actions in a round, this is actually extremely slow - Speed 13.3 - and can be trivially caught by most PCs. Was this meant to be that it is Speed 40?

Moving 60 feet a round is consistent with a moves speed of 20. In addition, they might have a climb speed to handle the steep cliffs.

Quote:

A dri (female yak) can move 60 feet a round, can easily scale steep cliffs, and is difficult to secure

[hyphz]

The South statues require no check to "uncover the inscription", but:

pg. 9 wrote:

A successful DC 40 Society check is necessary to decode the script—if the reader understands Tien, they gain a +2 circumstance bonus to this check, but the highly allegorical style of the writing, couched in historical references and metaphor, means that magic such as tongues does not automatically reveal the meaning.

So it looks like if they fail that check, they're kind of stuck unless they just sit there and roll over and over again (or I guess get back on the chariot and go and try and find someone else to decode it).

My apologies - you are correct that the yak is Speed 20. But even a level 1 human is Speed 25 and can just kind of walk up to it in a round, and a level 18 character probably isn't going to have a problem climbing cliffs; heck, they can probably fly faster than that.

GM OfAnything wrote:

The PCs would know that just bringing Hao Jin back is not a permanent solution. The forces that captured her could strike again and there is no guarantee the Celestial Dragon would grant a second wish to rescue her. The only viable solution is to breach the demiplane and defeat the forces within.

The PCs also do not know that the "forces" that took Hao Jin are on the island, only that they took her there. They may have gone elsewhere after dropping her off in which case this wouldn't do much good. And, of course, she wasn't actually captured and since she has a decent chunk of a continent who want rid of her it's probably better if they assume she can look after herself.

Anyway, they can just wish for Hao Jin to be returned and not taken again.

[GM OfAnything]

hyphz wrote:

Anyway, they can just wish for Hao Jin to be returned and not taken again.

I should hope that your players are more genre savvy than that.

Plus, the Celestial Dragon's wishes come at a price. Retrieving Hao Jin may take an order of magnitude more Soul Energy than simply piercing the demiplane.

Quote:

So it looks like if they fail that check, they're kind of stuck unless they just sit there and roll over and over again (or I guess get back on the chariot and go and try and find someone else to decode it).

They don't necessarily need to be stuck. The landmarks are all visible from the air if they are willing to go in blind. Any details they miss from the statues can be filled in by Abbot Tsujon at the monastery.

[hyphz]

Quote:

The map purposefully does not include a scale; the mutable and unpredictable nature of time and space on Syndara’s Island makes calculating distance both impossible and largely unnecessary.

Seriously? I mean, surely someone could point out that this makes no sense?

Of course it's necessary. If it's in Syndara's control, he waits for the players to take a step away from the Solar Jian, then makes it a million miles away and so is everything else. The PCs starve. Done. If he wants them dead, there's no reason he wouldn't do that.

[Grankless]

Aside from the obvious "there's no plot then, duh", there's nothing saying he has total control over the whole thing.

[hyphz]

A fundamental part of writing fiction is making the heroes able to win without it appearing that the villain is letting them. In the case of the AP, it is a case of making the adventure and game fair without feeling that Syndara is being fair, because he wouldn’t be. An AP author should be doing this because I am paying them for the AP because they have those skills professionally and I don’t.

It doesn’t matter if the adventure doesn’t say he doesn’t have total control, the PCs need to know that.

[Calpal]

It's wild that you read "The map purposefully does not include a scale; the mutable and unpredictable nature of time and space on Syndara’s Island makes calculating distance both impossible and largely unnecessary" and thought "this is definitely a problem".

I read that part and thought "oh, that is neat". It will never ever come up in play. If you didn't mention it to your players they would probably never know.

You definitely inferred that Syndara is constantly changing the island to suit his whims as opposed to it being mutable and unpredictable. Unpredictable means it can't be predicted. To me that also means that Syndara is not predicting it. Otherwise it would be mutable and predictable. The predictable part would be Syndara constantly making things too far away.

But ultimately, as Grankless has stated, there would be no story.

[hyphz]

What made me think "this is a problem" was the statement that "makes calculating distance.. largely unnecessary".

Unless the adventure suspends all the standard rules for survival and overland travel, it cannot be unnecessary to know how far the PCs have to go.

If the story would break if the distance between encounters were a million miles, then guess what, calculating distance is now necessary because that's what tells you it's not a million miles.

[Calpal]

I took a skim through that chapter (my players are only on Book 2) and it looks like the intention is that the locations and events in that book happen at the GM's discretion.

I don't think I would make my players role survival or use overland travel rules. I would probably just play up through description how they travel for hours and objects in the distance don't seem to get closer or how they go in circles for a while. Maybe make it similar to being lost in a fey filled forest when they are playing tricks on you.

If you wanted more concrete rules you could roll some dice to see how long it takes them to get between one spot to the next. Or have them make survival checks to estimate how well they are able to navigate through the changing landscape.

Either way, you're going to end up having them go to the events listed in the book, which is really the main point of the chapter. How they get there doesn't seem to matter as much.

I've taken a similar approach to this adventure path in general. I'm not making my players roll knowledge checks for magical items as this isn't really a grindy, dungeon crawl adventure. This is a lot of action with wild creatures and wacky high level antics. The thought of having them do overland travel never occurred to me, particularly for this magical island in a pocket dimension formed by a mad sorcerer out for revenge.

[hyphz]

I probably won't ask them to use survival, but it's still a bit tacky that the author clearly wrote this as a fixed series of fights, then put it onto an island to mirror the first section but apparently didn't consider the consequences.

Then again, I'm trying to prep chapter 2 and just read G1. The aolazes roll across the bridge and through winding tunnels in the mines, firing at the PCs through "the lookout windows around the perimeter of the mines". The PCs will naturally, enter the tunnels to pursue the Aolazes once they realize what is going on. The map shows no tunnels nor lookout windows. It doesn't even specify elevation.

If I wanted to play OSR I would be playing OSR.

[Grankless]

That sounds like a great opportunity to use chase rules.

[hyphz]

How have people handled the dimensional mirror "guarding" the pile of statues at G5? I can't really see how it's positioned. The artwork shows a standard full-length mirror on a stand but I presume it isn't like that because I'm pretty sure Syndara isn't silly enough to just use a mirror that a PC can approach from behind and just push over. How have people dealt with the positioning here?

[KingAmo]

I've got a few things to ask and add.

1. How are you meant to run the Running the Gauntlet encounter in the Blasted Lands? There's no map, and no sense of how long the encounter should last, but many of the effects rely on lengths and rounds.

2. During the ritual, there don't seem to be any consequences for not doing the checks to stop the spirits in the first movement or stabilizing the gate in the final movement. I also don't understand the purpose of the performance checks, do they just restart if they fail a check?

3. The final 2 encounters not having maps didn't feel right to me. What I did instead was create a sort of half-spiral of platforms, shaped that way because of the destruction caused by the earlier battle with Hao Jin. The PCs spawn in the middle with Syndara at the center of the outer edge. He gives his dialogue, and then with a wave of his hand, clones everything and rotates it to the other side, forming a full map with his duplicate on the other side. The final battle I was fine with keeping an empty void.

[hyphz]

For running the gauntlet I treated it like I'd treated the chase and just put the effects in sequences.

I also found it wrong for the last encounters to not have maps. It is rather ironic that the book says that the area of the spiral "can't be measured" then tells you that the worldsphere moves 30ft per round!

I did find two seriously unexpected major hazards in the last section of the adventure, though. First of all, Blue Viper's Plum Rain Deluge using Tears of Death is absolutely lethal and can cripple party members or even wipe the whole party in a single move.

Second, the first phase Syndara's ability to use Disjunction can be very nasty, even if it is only once per d4 rounds (and it is rather awkward that the adventure does not give Syndara's counteract check modifier - I have noticed this is a recurring error in APs, they will give an enemy's spell DC but not the modifier for attack roll spells). In the first round he used it on one of the PCs magic weapons and seriously limited his damage dealing ability for the entire rest of the fight.

[KingTreyIII]

Okay, can someone help me understand the aolaz encounter (G1)? It says that “Each turn, one aolaz attempts to roll across the bridge and Trample any enemies it can, while the other maneuvers within the mines, creating the illusion that there is only one construct here that happens to move preternaturally quickly through the tunnels.”

My issue is…what tunnels? I don’t see any indication of tunnels on the map. All it shows is two bridges over a pit of lava (which is corroborated by the box-text for that area), but no indication of where the aolazes would go to “hide.” I can’t figure out for the life of me where the aolazes would go on the map to enter these tunnels that only seem to be mentioned in their tactics.

[dharkus]

which part of the monastery is the training hall? there's no obvious rooms for it
the biggest room on the left with the lights maybe?

[dharkus]

why do none of the encounters before area E have a difficulty rating stated? all the ones from E on have em!

[keftiu]

I might be jumping at shadows here, but I'm very curious about the five finalist teams in this one. They're profiled in Book 1, but as this is the book that nails down who makes it to the end, I'm posting it here for spoilers' sake.

lengthy ramble that's almost certainly nothing:

The Speakers of the Winds being Magaambyans is, of course, a teaser for Strength of Thousands, with Ayuwari appearing in both APs - this is old news. The Biting Roses are all Arcadians, and they're who I was looking back at this book for info on... when I noticed the Arms of Balance, a team comprised of two Vudrani humans, a Vanara, and a Vishkanya, all of which just got detail in the Impossible Lands book that just released. Each are "elementalists" of a different element - perhaps Kineticists, like those in the upcoming Rage of Elements, or else the Elementalist class archetype from Secrets of Magic?

With two of the five teams from the end having seemingly been tied to 'future' releases, it made me look closer at the others with an eye for what they might hint at.

The aforementioned Biting Roses are all from Nalmeras, a nation that borders Xopatl in central Arcadia, and each is described as a "spiritualist" despite radically different abilities - a human who fights alongside a phantom eidolon, an elf who fires arrows made of his "soul energy," and a wyrwood Harrower; while Yarrika is just a Summoner, 2/3 of those are abilities PF2 characters can't currently touch, and Wyrwoods aren't currently playable. With Stolen Fate coming up, it might be time for some more Harrow-related abilities in PC hands?

The Steps of the Sun are a pair of Minatan human siblings (who seemingly practice a Garundi-Tian martial arts style that resembles dance - is this meant to be like escrima or capoeira?), an Amurrun Bard from the Valashmai Jungle, and a Samsaran with a magical voice. All three come from different parts of Tian Xia (the Samsaran has what reads like a Tian-Hwan name to me), and Samsarans are currently unplayable, which might mean we're seeing the wider continent soon.

Winter's Roar, interestingly, pull from all across the Saga Lands, back in familiar Avistan. Urnak's traveled the whole region, living in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords and Irrisen before settling in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords. He's joined by a seemingly-Jadwiga halfling, an Ulfen shieldmaiden, and what seems to be a Linnorm Kingdom-dwelling hobgoblin. None of them have exceptional character options, but it seems deliberate to hit all the non-Varisia bits of that microregion.

If this book really is some kind of cryptic roadmap for PF2's near future, then Tian Xia, Arcadia, and the Saga Lands isn't the most unbelievable shape things could take; two distant continents, tempered by the nostalgic homecoming to classic 1e locales?

Am I really convinced? Nah. I was certain that 2023 would be the year for a Broken Lands book and a Shaman playtest before last Gen Con, and that doesn't appear to have panned out... but this whole exercise felt entertaining enough to share!

[Captain collateral damage]

Takatorra is listed as having 2 +3 major striking fell tengu gale blades. What is fell? I can't find it anywhere. I'm guessing it's something that was supposed to be in the adventure toolbox and got cut, but does anyone have any other information I'm missing?

[The Rot Grub "The Rules Lawyer"]

Jin-Hae, the intercessor the party needs to find, died decades ago (p. 18). Until she passes, the monastery cannot name a new intercessor (p. 16). The entire was founded IN ORDER to prepare the next intercessor (p. 11). So they have just been waiting for decades for some adventurers to stumble by to make their mission possible again? And the monastery doesn't entrust them until they learn the techniques they already know?

I really wish I didn't have to fill in plot holes like this!

[The Rot Grub "The Rules Lawyer"]

I now see that the gauntlet in E5 can't be run as written without filling in major holes, as was remarked above.

E5a. Every square does 10 points of piercing damage. No indication of how far they must travel.
E5c. Immobilize everyone in the party and each person must escape with a DC 39 Athletics check? So anyone who can't do a legendary Athletics DC can't make further progress?
E5e. Everyone is "exposed to suffocation"? The rules for suffocation say you "fall unconscious and start suffocating." What? I assume they must hold their breath like the Underwater rules. Of course, we have no idea how far they must travel.

There are other parts of the AP that have issues. The map says that the lava tube travels a quarter mile, but the map shows goes about 250 feet. This section desperately needs a few maps, and the only map we're given is useless.

Once you reach the tree, there is a DC 38 Nature check to "beseech the tree to give a branch to the party." No explanation as to why they're talking to a tree, or why they would think of doing this. The benefit? To be shielded from the kaijus' effects on the way out. I already know that I will not run the gauntlet a second time!

I must say this is the most poorly-edited AP chapter I think I've ever run. There are so many errors.

[Ectar]

For anyone who had run this, did your players connect the various dragon statute clues to the Breath, Bones, and Spirit? Or even the necessity of the Celestial Dragon, itself?
The AP says "Upon piecing together these inscriptions, the player characters realizes this Celestial Dragon is clearly something more primordial than a common wyrm and that their power is likely sufficient to open a way
to Syndara’s Island and Hao Jin with it."
Are the players supposed to realize this at all? Or is it just kind of the GM saying so?

It feels like the kind of thing that, as the GM, I will have to explicitly tell them, which never feels great.
Related, reading out a list of clues and moments later having to tell them "Actually, one of those hints I just gave you was mistranslated, here's the actual hint" seems super weird.

[The Rot Grub "The Rules Lawyer"]

Ectar wrote:

For anyone who had run this, did your players connect the various dragon statute clues to the Breath, Bones, and Spirit? Or even the necessity of the Celestial Dragon, itself?

The AP says "Upon piecing together these inscriptions, the player characters realizes this Celestial Dragon is clearly something more primordial than a common wyrm and that their power is likely sufficient to open a way
to Syndara’s Island and Hao Jin with it."
Are the players supposed to realize this at all? Or is it just kind of the GM saying so?

It feels like the kind of thing that, as the GM, I will have to explicitly tell them, which never feels great.
Related, reading out a list of clues and moments later having to tell them "Actually, one of those hints I just gave you was mistranslated, here's the actual hint" seems super weird.

IIRC, I used the info that the shrine was infused with energy, and a tracing of Hao Jin herself. With knowledge checks, I suggested that something beyond normal magic . The legend of the Celestial Dragon able to grant wishes was also something I had the players know through knowledge checks, etc. So I think that's how my players connected the dots.

I don't remember exactly the path to how they got to this, but the bottom line for me was them learning that the names of the 3 elements. The Monastery leader who knows how to summon the dragon can fill them in on details and make everything clear.

[The Rot Grub "The Rules Lawyer"]

The Affinity Blaze is ability is one collective use per day, yes?

I ask, because on page 32 it says if they attain 33+ Soul Offering Points: "They gain a single extra use of Affinity Ablaze each day that can be used by any member of the team."

Which uses "they" and "can be used any member," as if the default is that each PC gets their own single use...

Has anyone run the next part of the adventure and know whether it's like Volume 1, where there can be a large number of encounters in a single day?

[Unicore]

The Rot Grub "The Rules Lawyer" wrote:

The Affinity Blaze is ability is one collective use per day, yes?

I ask, because on page 32 it says if they attain 33+ Soul Offering Points: "They gain a single extra use of Affinity Ablaze each day that can be used by any member of the team."

Which uses "they" and "can be used any member," as if the default is that each PC gets their own single use...

Has anyone run the next part of the adventure and know whether it's like Volume 1, where there can be a large number of encounters in a single day?

Sorry, My party is still in the second book and I haven't looked that far ahead to book 3. I am still trying to decide if I want to try to condense book 3 into something that ends more like level 18, with less exploration stuff, or if the party is still into the story with the tournament over. Did you find your players fully invested in the move to the third book?