Yes, that's the danger my group soon realized. So they took 0 risks with the dens and the random events. The bird stealing the necklace was their least favorite, but having just a lone enemy made it easy to focus down even with Ingdani and a team member confused and being controlled by it.
You've also got massive amounts of treasure around that give an unfair advantage to the pcs if they happen to come across it, 500gp per feather won, and shrines which is in my player's opinion useless, but they quickly changed their tunes when they found the boats and could cross rivers more easily.
I don't feel that the tone is wrong to make the tournament fun, but that's your call as a DM. This contest is voluntary and Tino's team represents that element of it that Syndara is trying to ruin....
Tone is entirely on me as the GM, I didn't mean to imply it was written that way. My group is just that suspicious as players, and I have not been able to run 'world champions showcase' because of their playstyles. I don't want to discount their playstyles, it is their fun, I just wish I could add more as a GM.
My players totally wanted to skip everything but the matches. Fortunately, they got their butts handed to them on the second and third match and I was able to simply say: you need to level up.
My players, called the Six Tails (an all kitsune team), have reached 10 feathers before noon on Day 2. The bard (now) has a seventh level spell called magnificent mansion. They have hiked to the top of Mount Haminabu and plan to cast it and wait for dawn of Day 3
At 10 feathers they are not allowed to challenge another team, but how often can someone else challenge them? Any thoughts on how to bring challengers in without 'picking on' my team?
With just the Events (Ahmoza Sisters, Gomwai, Hannah's Hundreds, etc.) there are 14 feathers. Anyone else, find 10 feathers early?
My players, called the Six Tails (an all kitsune team), have reached 10 feathers before noon on Day 2. The bard (now) has a seventh level spell called magnificent mansion. They have hiked to the top of Mount Haminabu and plan to cast it and wait for dawn of Day 3
At 10 feathers they are not allowed to challenge another team, but how often can someone else challenge them? Any thoughts on how to bring challengers in without 'picking on' my team?
With just the Events (Ahmoza Sisters, Gomwai, Hannah's Hundreds, etc.) there are 14 feathers. Anyone else, find 10 feathers early?
That group name is perfect!
That's odd, Ingdani didn't tell them to return to their base after non combat hours? I interpreted the rules for teams to be in their base by non combat hours or risk disqualification.
Well they are in a bad spot regardless, since adjacent to the palace on day 3 will be all the trivial silver feathers the desperate teams will fight over after Hao Jin's announcement. It's inevitable teams will rush there to get feathers they are still missing, and seeing the PCs with a full necklace is a tempting target. They can be challenged any time, but they can't challenge anyone at 10 themselves. So that puts pressure on since at least two teams scale the mountain with less than 10 feathers we know of.
Also being so close to the temple on day 3 they are inevitably pounced by the Oni as they step out of extra dimensional space. She's rather brutish and won't give them much slack if they plan to sit out a whole day, and you can always give her additional support.
Even with a 100% winning streak, my group used day 3 as a means of doing a victory lap around the island to find all the teleportation spots and treasures on the northern end of the peninsula, where they got the "quick travel" spell. They missed the bonus for all shrines, but there were still the ghost towers, beast dens, and several unique spots like the prison that have a good chunk of fun.
I think the intent was to have the feathers early and often so people didn't feel pressured or stressed as the written events, termed "Paizo BS" in my group, kept happening regardless of progress.
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So does anyone have any good excuses for why Hao Jin gets taken out by the disintegrate?
I really want to make it clear that they were super lucky to do it and I think it would be hard to have her injured from before.
They got a crit, she got a crit fail. It happens. It's not like you need to roll dice for it, it just happens.
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I don't want to get too much down in the nitty gritty but even if a 6th or 7th level disintegrate landed a crit fail and even got max damage (240/280 dmg) it wouldn't even kill most contestants of the tournament.
So I don't really want to have it happen to a supposedly very powerful character without some circumstance that catches her at a major disadvantage.
If you see someone very powerful get taken out by another one the first instinct is that they're also very powerful but it isn't really the case. So the signal I want to send is more "Hao Jin was very tired/injured from before and they took the opportunity".
They had a wand. Maybe it was 10th level or something. Or maybe she was exhausted by all the big spells she's done, but do you really think your players will care that much? I surmise mine will just go "oh s~!&, she just got disintegrated, let's help Tino beat the crap out of the belligerent dude who did it".
A 10th-level wand is a pretty good idea, could even be broken because it was overcharged so it isn't accidentally picked up as loot.
And it is definitely possible my players would not care at all but I just don't want her to be portrayed as a weak character.
Another idea is that she created the arenas with her spells and are tired or maybe wrangled some dangerous creatures possibly.
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"I just tied together those [whatever those weird aberration bears are] for this exhibition match, you better be gra[zap]"
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So does anyone have any good excuses for why Hao Jin gets taken out by the disintegrate?
I really want to make it clear that they were super lucky to do it and I think it would be hard to have her injured from before.
My take is that she took the hit, knowing she would be fine, so that she could see how everyone would react. She's constantly testing these teams and was curious what other teams would step up as a result.
I don't imagine my players to overthink things. I think instead they'll go "WHAT!?!?!?" and dig into the shock.
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This was addressed on
page 1 and page 2 of this thread. Also Hao Jin has been making 20th level magic items all day. You could show her energy going into those, or perhaps the disintegrate hits the phoenix fan as she is pouring magic into it and there is a powerful backlash.
For my story I will have some ancient tien sing/taumaton (kaiju? foreshadowing?) device shoot a ray. If my players want to identify it they will need an arcane check (none of whom have arcana) & it appears to be a version of ray of frost
Ahem.
Or something like that. ;)
Oh! With disintegrate being a found relic, I can also have it take out the user! "These five angry contestants..." *Boom* "these four angry contestants."
So does anyone have any good excuses for why Hao Jin gets taken out by the disintegrate?
I really want to make it clear that they were super lucky to do it and I think it would be hard to have her injured from before.
My take is that she took the hit, knowing she would be fine, so that she could see how everyone would react. She's constantly testing these teams and was curious what other teams would step up as a result.
I don't imagine my players to overthink things. I think instead they'll go "WHAT!?!?!?" and dig into the shock.
Ooh, I really like something this.
[
That's odd, Ingdani didn't tell them to return to their base after non combat hours? I interpreted the rules for teams to be in their base by non combat hours or risk disqualification.
Well they are in a bad spot regardless, since adjacent to the palace on day 3 will be all the trivial silver feathers the desperate teams will fight over after Hao Jin's announcement. It's inevitable teams will rush there to get feathers they are still missing, and seeing the PCs with a full necklace is a tempting target. They can be challenged any time, but they can't challenge anyone at 10 themselves. So that puts pressure on since at least two teams scale the mountain with less than 10 feathers we know of.
Also being so close to the temple on day 3 they are inevitably pounced by the Oni as they step out of extra dimensional space. She's rather brutish and won't give them much slack if they plan to sit out a whole day, and you can always give her additional support.
... [/times ]Page 26 says teams can explore any time of the day, but can only Engage in a Match during daylight hours. If not resting during this time, they run the risk of interrupting rest when challenged. Therefore returning to their base is not required.I got the impression the Lightkeepers were 'cheating' with their extra-planar travel (leaving the isle is not allowed) but can't find that now.
Only about a third of the island. Louis said he wanted every teams' experience to be different. The monster lairs will get repetitive if the party encounters too many, especially when they discover so little treasure in these. My table needed them to level up and the monsters definitely set the danger level as high.
I have already mentioned I am doing a 'highlight reel' for my players. I used that to show parts of the island I don't think my players will get to (new monster, giant eggshell). I also featured my party in front of the Taumaton shrine they discovered, then had another team contact them (dream message) to ask for directions (a religious research team sponsored a fighter to gain access to the island). I also had Tino's Toughest send them a congratulations via animal messenger .
TL;DR, I am using this to let them 'explore' more.
If you wanted to give them more time to explore, I would just add a couple more exploration units rather than change the time of each. (Just for ease of math) (Move the game to summer solstice instead of equinox.)
I love this thread - very helpful things to consider as I kick off this AP with my friends on Friday.
One big questions remains for me, which a few have touched on, but not sufficiently imo. How do the teams position on the battlefield before initiative? This seems a very important point. I was thinking of having the two guides for the two teams flip a coin. Whichever team wins the coin flip gets to position itself on the battlefield with some parameters (each team member must be within 30 feet of one other team member). The losing team then gets to position itself on the battlefield (same restriction as above, but also cannot be closer than 20 feet to opposing team). From there, initiative is rolled.
Thoughts? Other ideas?
I love this thread - very helpful things to consider as I kick off this AP with my friends on Friday.
One big questions remains for me, which a few have touched on, but not sufficiently imo. How do the teams position on the battlefield before initiative? This seems a very important point. I was thinking of having the two guides for the two teams flip a coin. Whichever team wins the coin flip gets to position itself on the battlefield with some parameters (each team member must be within 30 feet of one other team member). The losing team then gets to position itself on the battlefield (same restriction as above, but also cannot be closer than 20 feet to opposing team). From there, initiative is rolled.
Thoughts? Other ideas?
That's a really good idea. I might adopt that for the second book as they are done Day 2 already.
I just had the players position themselves on the map and then plunked down my NPCs wherever I thought would make sense. Most of the time it gave the players the advantage but didn't make much of a difference overall.
Another quick question - any idea how the Mage of Many Styles has such a high spell attack bonus (+26)? My calculation has it as +22. A wizard would only have expert spellcasting at 13th level (CL +4, or +17) plus Int modifier (+5) - that should leave it +22. Am I missing something here?
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NPCs don't use PC rules, they use the NPC creation rules.
In general NPCs trade complexity and diversity for raw power in order to challenge the players.
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I love this thread - very helpful things to consider as I kick off this AP with my friends on Friday.
One big questions remains for me, which a few have touched on, but not sufficiently imo. How do the teams position on the battlefield before initiative? This seems a very important point. I was thinking of having the two guides for the two teams flip a coin. Whichever team wins the coin flip gets to position itself on the battlefield with some parameters (each team member must be within 30 feet of one other team member). The losing team then gets to position itself on the battlefield (same restriction as above, but also cannot be closer than 20 feet to opposing team). From there, initiative is rolled.
Thoughts? Other ideas?
I like your idea* I may steal it. I have been using reverse initiative, which has allowed my team to start acting like a team & using strategy (flanking, protect the cleric, closing with archers.)
You have hit on the problem we have been dealing with in PF2 for casters. 70-75% of attacks are wasted action & resources. In the case of NPCs they are built with a target number in mind, as Onkonk has alluded to. I also imagine the specialists are magus prototype & therefore use their melee proficiency, but mostly it is just the number.
For a level 13 creauture:
Moderate spell attack +22 (this is where PCs are at)
High spell attack +25 (where most primary spellcasting enemies are at)
This one has one more than high on spell attack (and one lower than high on DC) presumably because this is a striker type of enemy that trades defenses for offenses with its lower than moderate HP, lower than moderate AC (standard is high), no high saves, one moderate and the rest below moderate.
As a trade-off, it has no feats at all except for the spell punch ability.
Basically this creature is built with high offense and low defenses using spell attacks to deliver spells (funnily enough it has much better spell attack than weapon proficiency).
For a level 13 creauture:
Moderate spell attack +22 (this is where PCs are at)
High spell attack +25 (where most primary spellcasting enemies are at)
This one has one more than high on spell attack (and one lower than high on DC) presumably because this is a striker type of enemy that trades defenses for offenses with its lower than moderate HP, lower than moderate AC (standard is high), no high saves, one moderate and the rest below moderate.
As a trade-off, it has no feats at all except for the spell punch ability.
Basically this creature is built with high offense and low defenses using spell attacks to deliver spells (funnily enough it has much better spell attack than weapon proficiency).
This is very helpful. Thanks. And it makes sense. It's nice to know I wasn't just adding wrong or something.
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Are you adjusting encounters for the larger party size you apparently have?
Are you adjusting encounters for the larger party size you apparently have?I adjusted some of the regular encounters. I am not adjusting team encounters because their numbers and difficulty vary widely anyway.
At the very least, I would switch out a melee for a mage or an archer, give the opponents a potion/scroll/wand of fly. If the team is that successful, the other teams will be prepared for it.
Just curious, how many fly spells does your team have? Three 4th level spells, means one character for three fights. Or three characters in one fight. Then again fly is on three different lists.
My team did look into a flying broom :)
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.. Why does Blue Viper have a bunch of poisons with 1-10 minute onset times? How are they going to be useful? Do they think that if the PCs just keel over 10 minutes after the fight that Hao Jin will go "oh, that's no problem?"
Do note that he might not use them in combat, he could use them outside of combat
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Well, the Phoenix Challenge was a bust. Hao Jin had to quickly correct the rules to add that flying isn’t allowed, but just jumping over the area in two actions wasn’t a problem, and the person climbing the spire of Earth had a climb speed and did it in one round.
Since Hao Jin will ensure nobody is permanently harmed, there is no reason for every team not to volunteer for every event.
Oh, and it is a strange thing indeed for Hao Jin to “cast a spell to protect the rune giant from the heat, but not direct contact with the lava” because Rune Giants are immune to fire anyway.
Sorry, really not impressed here.
Being immune to fire is not the same as taking no damage from heat. Nor is Lava the same as fire. It makes sense to me that she would put this ward in place.
Also, just because a team won't be killed or permanently harmed doesn't mean it's "fun" to get beat up. If you are wondering why a team wouldn't volunteer to face the Rune Giant it might be that they just don't particularly want to face an unknown threat at this time in the day. Or they are trying to retain resources for unknown threats/opportunities later in the day (the same reason the PCs might not want to fight).
...
I plan on reworking most teams to custom built characters with references to anime/manga/manhwas.
I have flavored some of my teams to anime/wuxia as well, but it is only flavor. I haven't had to rebuild anything, and I don't know if my players have figured out that I am working with five frames.
I did build a couple teams just because I wanted to. :)
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That's odd, Ingdani didn't tell them to return to their base after non combat hours? I interpreted the rules for teams to be in their base by non combat hours or risk disqualification.
No:
The player characters can travel around the island at all hours of the day but can Engage in a Match only during active hours. However, any travel during inactive hours could potentially eat into valuable time for rest.
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Starting this as the GM soon and a few thoughts on everything here.
The summary of all this could really be "Your players have agreed to an adventure path that is a fighting tournament. If they didn't want to be in a fighting tournament, why are we playing this?"
- There was nothing in the rules precluding exploring at night. In fact page 26 explicitly says you can travel all hours of the day (as Luke said just above this). This does mean any event that depends on them being in a place simply gets moved to them.
- For intentionally seeking an opponent, page 45 mentions teams should be able to find an opponent within about 4 hexploration activities.
- I don't see it explicitly stated anywhere, but I'm treating each team's attendant as a neutral enforcer. They never issue challenges or engage in combat, but are wandering referees so teams are always "in the presence of an enforcer". Otherwise wandering the island to issue a challenge would be silly.
- I don't see the Necklace's abilities explained anywhere except the items page, so I'm running it as the Enforcers that Sending them (after they clear the temple) explain the properties of the necklace, or at least hint they should try to identify it.
- I'm calling challenge distances at about 200 feet. The idea being you need to be able to throw something at them (I'm thinking about baseball as a *rough* reference for long throwing distance). The team's attendant simply being present should make things tricky to hide from an encounter, so this is more to prevent challenging from miles away with a spyglass.
- I'm agreeing with this thread's treatment of "no looting/stealing/cursing" as part of the general "no lethal action against other teams" rule. Stealing feathers could potentially be interesting, but would devolve the module into a long discussion of how each individual team is protecting their feathers with what enchantments, not to mention what other teams would do to take the PC's feathers. Even if stealing were allowed, there's a corner case of a team has 10 feathers, and therefore cannot challenge the thief trying to steal their feathers, and cannot take violent actions against the thief...so then what? Those rules could be changed too, but I'm opting for outright No Stealing.
- There are a few posts about waiting around safe sites, challenge-then-rechallenge, and other "tournament rule abuses" in this thread. If any group does something against the spirit of the rules like this, the enforcers give them a warning, eventually escalating to challenging them and refusing to award a prize (to include not recognizing challenges from the group as coming first, unless both sides are begging for the match). The enforcers intentionally waste the offending party's time and allows the "fouled" team a chance to leave.
- I love the idea of "every time the party uses a spell (or any daily resource), take the same % of spell slots away from NPC teams" as a balancing factor.
- I like the "random amount of time from setting up for a match until a match begins" way of dealing with Buffs cast before a match, even if cast with some sort of "stealthy" ability.
- I'm going with positioning before a match is completely up to each team, since both sides would be staring each other down waiting for an official start signal. The challenged team decides which half of the arena each team takes formation on, including if it's a north/south or an east/west (or whatever else) half. There could even be a coin flip to decide a number of buff rounds or a side to defend like American Football. Buff rounds could also be used to build cover from flying opponents.
- Flying opponents certainly need to be dealt with, though there's still the number of times you can cast fly a day as a limit. I'm considering each team as having an extra quirk to handle flying opponents (portable total cover, counter spelling, giving someone boots of flying, granting some sort of defensive action, etc). There's also lots of cover in these arenas, so a completely flying party would need to deal with opponents just "waiting it out". Savvy opponents could have a goal of taking an unconscious party member hostage for the rest of combat, potentially eating into the PC's feathers for revive if they try to play the distance game and let their team mates be killed. In theory other teams should have had just as much time to strategize as the PCs, so if your players can think of it, so can the NPCs. (A rare exception to the "Don't intentionally build encounters to foil your PCs strategy" heuristic, though it's much more relevant to book 2 when the entire city of Goka knows your party's tactics).
Any advice on the Southeastern Watchtower Shadow encounter? Namely, the Shadow Spawn ability doesn't seem as adjusted for this variant creature as the rest of it's stats.
The lvl 4 Shadow spawns a copy of itself that is permanently clumsy 2.
The lvl 7 Greater Shadow spawns the base lvl 4 Shadow (without clumsy).
Which should this lvl 15 variant version Spawn?
Either of the two lower level creatures seem much too low leveled to be a significant factor in the encounter. Spawning a copy of the variant shadow, even making it clumsy turns this from a Severe encounter to an Extreme+ one. Maybe clumsy 2 on top of the weak adjustment? Or give it slowed for the first 1d4 rounds.
Or maybe I'm over analyzing this, and my team will be fine. How has this encounter gone for your tables?
Or maybe I'm over analyzing this, and my team will be fine. How has this encounter gone for your tables?
YEPPP!
My table trounce this thing in less than three rounds. It got one character to Enfeebled 1.
Why is it that the encounters I get nervous about always end up fine, while ones I think will be fine end up near tpks?
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For anyone who cares, I did a small bit of conversion of some of the NPCs to the remaster.
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In chapter one, Area A6 The Dormitory, treasure notes include an axiomatic rune. We are running this adventure under remastered rules.
Any suggestions in place of this item that get thematically or mechanically close?
I went with an astral rune, which does spirit damage. It's useful when fighting ghosts on the island.