So I've been dealing with this spell and trying to get a grip on it. I've been butting heads with a player over what it can do and what it can be used against.
It all comes down to the timing of the Immediate action and what exactly it can be used against, or what exactly constitutes an attack.
What does it mean to respond to an attack? When do you have to take the immediate action to cast the spell? Do you cast it when the attack is announced before the attack is made or can you wait until after the attack hits but before finding out the damage of the attack?
The spell isn't 100% clear as to the timing of it and I've not found anything in the action types rules to help. Answering this question would clear up a lot of the issues I've been having with it.
Immediate actions happen whenever the actor says unless there's some specific restriction on the immediate action.
The spell, Deivon's Parry is a good example of a more restricted immediate action. "This spell can be cast only when an opponent makes a melee attack against you, and only before the attack roll has been made."
Windy Escape doesn't have that type of restriction attached, so it follows the general rule of "an immediate action can be performed at any time" You can wait till the result of the dice is known before casting the spell and applying its effect. It does need to be made in response to an attack, but I can't think of a non-attack situation where the spell would be beneficial. Wave Shield is a similar spell.
I wouldn't worry too much about Windy Escape - at best it saves the PC 10hp, at worst it does nothing.
I wouldn't worry too much about Windy Escape - at best it saves the PC 10hp, at worst it does nothing.
Plus No Crits, No Poison, and No Backstab. could be quite useful...
I would think the spell needs to be cast after the attack is announced. Before any rolls are made.
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For the sake of speedy gameplay I prefer giving the player one decision point instead of two; i.e. when GM'ing, I'd go "the golem attacks you and hits AC 21" instead of going "the golem is about to attack you, do you want to do anything? No? Then he hits AC 21".
The windy escape spell doesn't strike me as overpowered under this interpretation, either. I'm aware that the spell can also be interpreted differently, but this is how I would rule it.
I wouldn't worry too much about Windy Escape - at best it saves the PC 10hp, at worst it does nothing.Plus No Crits, No Poison, and No Backstab. could be quite useful...
Oh, it's been a while since I read it, I forgot that =P
I still don't think it really matters if the PC knows they've been hit before announcing it. They negate 1 crit, or 1 sneak attack, or 1 poison. Possibly useful, but not really overpowered. I basically agree with what Kurald said.
I wouldn't worry too much about Windy Escape - at best it saves the PC 10hp, at worst it does nothing.Plus No Crits, No Poison, and No Backstab. could be quite useful...Oh, it's been a while since I read it, I forgot that =P
I still don't think it really matters if the PC knows they've been hit before announcing it. They negate 1 crit, or 1 sneak attack, or 1 poison. Possibly useful, but not really overpowered. I basically agree with what Kurald said.
it's the difference in using a spell slot or not, so I can see where it matters if the decision is made before or after the attack roll, Especially since it's a level 1 Magus spell...
Making the decision after the attack roll greatly benefits the player.
It doesn't just protect from 10 hitpoints of damage. It also protects against other effects of the attack as well.
"You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.
You cannot use windy escape against an attack of opportunity you provoked by casting a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using any other magical ability that provokes an attack of opportunity when used."
There have been a few instances, but the one he's pushed back on the most was the following instance.
He activated a trap on a door. He didn't know it was trapped. The door knob had acid on it and a touch poison. My feeling is he didn't even know it was a danger and it isn't an attack. So by the time he came into contact with the acid and poison, it was already too late for him to use the spell as he was already burned and poisoned by them.
As for the timing of it, it makes a huge difference when you can use it. If you can wait until the attack roll is resolved, it is a significantly better use of it. If you have to use it before the attack roll it is a much less beneficial spell. I'm ok with using in either of these ways because the spell certainly makes it appear that you have to be aware of the attack in order to react to it. My problem is with attacks that you aren't aware of and using it against things that aren't attacks.
After thinking about it more, I guess one of the issues is, he may be stuck on thinking that anything that effects you in a negative way is an attack and forgetting that in the Pathfinder rules attack has a definition and that is what the effects of things are referring to.
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Generally speaking, Immediate Actions are resolved instantly at the point the PC says "I want to cast <insert spell> or use <insert ability> as an Immediate Action", even if it interrupts an ally's or enemy's turn. The only thing that gets resolved before Immediate Actions are Attacks of Opportunity, and that's only because AoO's have a specific rule that says they're not an action type, and that all AoO's are resolved immediately before any and all other types of actions and even interrupt a creature's turn; AoO's are resolved the exact second that they're provoked.
As far as how to resolve Windy Escape, the Immediate Action of casting this spell would interrupt an enemy creature's turn even mid-swing, as it's meant to "respond to an attack" made against you. Even though the text of Windy Escape specifically calls out that it cannot be used against an Attack of Opportunity, this would normally be disallowed per the AoO rules anyway. One thing I would be wary of here is that the Immediate Action cannot be used AFTER the hit has been confirmed, it must be used AFTER the attack has been declared but BEFORE the attack roll has been rolled. I.E. you don't get to use an immediate action to cast Windy Escape AFTER you've found out the monster rolled a nat 20 to hit you. There are some abilities that allow such actions to occur "after the hit has been confirmed but before damage is rolled", but this isn't one of them, and whenever this is allowed it explicitly says it in the ability/spell in question as a specific rule.
Also, any time you use an Immediate Action when it's not your turn, you're disallowed from using a Swift Action in your upcoming turn.
It is important to note that you cannot use an Immediate Action while Flat-Footed. You're considered Flat-Footed whenever you're Helpless, and you're Flat-footed until you act in combat.
Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
So this means that Surprise Rounds = no using Windy Escape UNTIL they've acted in the Surprise Round. If they failed the Perc check or are otherwise incapable of acting in the Surprise Round, then they wouldn't be able to act until round 1, so they would instead be FF'ed until they act in round 1.
It is also important to note that Invisible creatures that make an attack against your Sylph will do so against her FFAC but she is not considered Flat-footed, she's merely denied her Dodge/Dex bonus to AC for that particular attack ("flat-footed" and "denied Dex/dodge bonus to AC" are two very similar conditions, but are entirely different at the same time). So she would be able to use Windy Escape vs. an attack from an Invisible attacker.
I haven't ever put an opportunity for anything to happen right there... as Kurald said, I only give one decision point instead of two.
By the time the PC's know they are being attacked, they know if it hit or not... if you have something special to mitigate being hit, like Dodging Panache or some dumb $#!+, then you get to say that the joke is on me.
I applaud your investment in defense, and reward you with another attack... have at you!
Either way, I believe that the spell in question requires there to be an attack roll made with you as the target, and that you are both aware of the attack/capable of acting.
There have been a few instances, but the one he's pushed back on the most was the following instance.
He activated a trap on a door. He didn't know it was trapped. The door knob had acid on it and a touch poison.
Yeah I wouldn't give that to him. As pthers have said there should be an attack roll. There might he some leeway, but ...
You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you.
... what's the scenario here? He opened the door while insubstantial? That does strain credibility somewhat.
Unless he has uncanny dodge or some ability to avoid being surprised, they shouldn't be able to cast the spell at all in the situation stated.
My question is why is this an issue? So you used a trap on your player and they countered with a spell. That's how spells work- you have a limited number of them, and each is a "silver bullet" for a particular situation. If the argument is that the character is high enough level that a low-level spell slot is trivial, then a Cleric could just be tossing out Delay Poison on anyone who should be opening doors anyways, and dealing with the effects later.
If it's a breakdown of verisimilitude, keep in mind that the "turn order" in the game is an artificial construct made to make the game run smoothly. In reality, all kinds of things are actually happening at the same time, and Opportunity Attacks and Immediate Actions can often seem to be "rewinding time" or occurring when the victim shouldn't even know what they are reacting to.
For example, there's a Bard spell a friend of mine uses a lot that adds a bonus to a die roll that's been made, in an attempt to turn a failed roll into a success. Now you don't know the result of the roll, but you know what the roll is.
How the heck does the Bard know "oh he rolled a 14, I better give him a +3 to that"? Do Bards have prescient abilities? No, of course not, we assume the Bard can guess what's about to happen in real time, just as a Sylph could see a dart glistening with some green substance flying towards them and go "oh s%#!, that's probably poison!".
Remember, players don't know anything about the world unless you tell them. Holding back data so they can't make informed decisions is simply taking candy from a baby.
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@ Delthos
As far as using Windy Escape vs. traps, if you have a trap, such as a doorknob with a contact poison, then Windy Escape does not save them. If the trap had an attack roll, then I would say Windy Escape could be used.
The intent of the spell is to avoid/mitigate attacks as a "response to the attack", so if the trap has an attack roll, you should allow them to use it. If the attack has no attack roll, then they should not be able to use Windy Escape.
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As Ryze said, you cannot take immediate actions while flatfooted, which the character was. Issue solved.