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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Dilvias wrote: I’ve considered using ABP, but I’m not sure how it interacts with alchemy and alchemists. For example, devastating attacks says to increase dice size of weapons from one to two but bombs (which are martial weapons) already increase die sizes. It interacts rather jankily with alchemists. Their mutagens simply don’t work at all because item bonuses are disabled, and perpetual bombs scale to be nearly the same as real bombs. Devastating attacks doesn’t do anything on levelled bombs (they already have 2 dice, so increasing to 2 dice doesn’t apply).
I’d suggest treating their item bonuses as potency bonuses and just leaving the perpetual interaction because alchemists need some love anyway.
Dilvias wrote: I’ve considered using ABP, but I’m not sure how it interacts with alchemy and alchemists. For example, devastating attacks says to increase dice size of weapons from one to two but bombs (which are martial weapons) already increase die sizes. The main benefits for alchemists will be the fact that they don't need to have or upgrade their alchemist's goggles for when they, after level 7, finally gain their cantrips, which since they're inferior items, they won't have the top tier +X bonus necessary, which is where the Alchemist's googles come in. For Chirurgeon and Mutagenists, they only have to gain, since the chirurgeon will have an enhanced weapon and armor, when they otherwise would have little incentive to upgrade them, as for mutagenists, they're martial so the bonuses are obvious.
Was ABP not made with alchemists in mind? It seems problematic if it wasn't, considering alchemist is a core class now. But the way their bonuses work...
Corwin Icewolf wrote: Was ABP not made with alchemists in mind? It seems problematic if it wasn't, considering alchemist is a core class now. But the way their bonuses work... Alchemist from the start were practicaly thrown to the side compare to how the rest of the system functions. Like the entire class on release was barely playable due to half the options either not working properly, being hard to use without having 4 hands and twice the bulk, or just straight up not really supported.
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Temperans wrote: Corwin Icewolf wrote: Was ABP not made with alchemists in mind? It seems problematic if it wasn't, considering alchemist is a core class now. But the way their bonuses work... Alchemist from the start were practicaly thrown to the side compare to how the rest of the system functions. Like the entire class on release was barely playable due to half the options either not working properly, being hard to use without having 4 hands and twice the bulk, or just straight up not really supported. I think the bulk issues were mostly mistakes, to be fair.
The fact that the alchemist pregen in pfs doesn't line up with the original bulk for the alchemist's pack supports this.
But even so, if abp didn't take into account how alchemist's bonuses work, then like I said that's really questionable.
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As it stands, for bombs at least (to my understanding), they get a slight nerf to accuracy and a massive buff to that becoming completely irrelevant because you have infinite low level bombs doing scaling damage. Chirurgeon doesn't really care, Mutagenist and Toxicologist get wrecked.
I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't really think it through for Alchemist at all.
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It doesn't take a lot to fix ABP with Alchemists. Rule that Alchemical Elixirs give Potency Bonuses instead of Item Bonuses and you're most of the way there.
ABP gives Bombs an accuracy boost, as Bombs only get their accuracy bonus 1 level behind Runes.
As for Devastating Attack, I'm unsure as to whether I'd let it apply to Bombs at all. Bombs get a bonus die a level earlier than Devastating Attck would give. And Devastating Attack makes higher Level Bombs mostly pointless.(Higher level Bombs still do more Splash Damage.) On the other hand, it's a great boost if you're a Bomber. I imaging Perpetual Breadth would get a lot more popular.
CorvusMask wrote: Staffan Johansson wrote: Which again means visiting Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. "Hey, I got this sword here that says Excalibur on it, but I'm more of an axe guy, you know?" It's less of issue though since 2e allows moving weapon runes from weapon to another weapon <_< Which was part of my point. You finally defeat Mordred and reclaim Excalibur, and then take it down to the shop to get the runes transferred to your axe because that's what you have Legendary proficiency in, and you took the Sweep feat as well and that doesn't work nearly as well with a sword.
Staffan Johansson wrote: Which was part of my point. You finally defeat Mordred and reclaim Excalibur, and then take it down to the shop to get the runes transferred to your axe because that's what you have Legendary proficiency in, and you took the Sweep feat as well and that doesn't work nearly as well with a sword. [sarcasm] That's silly! No one transfers Excalibur to an axe and thinks that's a good idea... they reforge the legendary blade into .45 caliber revolvers and use them to try and stave off the end of all worlds.
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Staffan Johansson wrote: CorvusMask wrote: Staffan Johansson wrote: Which again means visiting Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. "Hey, I got this sword here that says Excalibur on it, but I'm more of an axe guy, you know?" It's less of issue though since 2e allows moving weapon runes from weapon to another weapon <_< Which was part of my point. You finally defeat Mordred and reclaim Excalibur, and then take it down to the shop to get the runes transferred to your axe because that's what you have Legendary proficiency in, and you took the Sweep feat as well and that doesn't work nearly as well with a sword. Firstly, you could retrain for your legendary weapon.
Secondly, you could play with a GM who knows what's on your character sheets.
Staffan Johansson wrote: CorvusMask wrote: Staffan Johansson wrote: Which again means visiting Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. "Hey, I got this sword here that says Excalibur on it, but I'm more of an axe guy, you know?" It's less of issue though since 2e allows moving weapon runes from weapon to another weapon <_< Which was part of my point. You finally defeat Mordred and reclaim Excalibur, and then take it down to the shop to get the runes transferred to your axe because that's what you have Legendary proficiency in, and you took the Sweep feat as well and that doesn't work nearly as well with a sword. Well, apparently you retrained your Legendary proficiency away from swords in the meantime, person "reclaiming" Excalibur, so you can just do that again.
Cyouni wrote: Staffan Johansson wrote: CorvusMask wrote: Staffan Johansson wrote: Which again means visiting Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. "Hey, I got this sword here that says Excalibur on it, but I'm more of an axe guy, you know?" It's less of issue though since 2e allows moving weapon runes from weapon to another weapon <_< Which was part of my point. You finally defeat Mordred and reclaim Excalibur, and then take it down to the shop to get the runes transferred to your axe because that's what you have Legendary proficiency in, and you took the Sweep feat as well and that doesn't work nearly as well with a sword. Well, apparently you retrained your Legendary proficiency away from swords in the meantime, person "reclaiming" Excalibur, so you can just do that again. Well, Excalibur was my daddy's sword, but Mordred stole it. So I got used to axes instead.
Going way back to the beginning of this, with 2E you have tons of options on builds that get you away from the 1E big six or the mandatory must-haves.
Perhaps there will be some alternate rules published where instead of runes, martial types will just be able to hit harder or more potently with their weapons similar to heightened spells? Like anything, there are pros and cons to this but in the games/tables I have run, the ability to actually hit seems more critical.
Arklore wrote: Going way back to the beginning of this, with 2E you have tons of options on builds that get you away from the 1E big six or the mandatory must-haves.
Perhaps there will be some alternate rules published where instead of runes, martial types will just be able to hit harder or more potently with their weapons similar to heightened spells? Like anything, there are pros and cons to this but in the games/tables I have run, the ability to actually hit seems more critical.
That's uh... Exactly what ABP is. An alternate rule that gives you those bonuses innately.
It can be hard to find GMs willing to run alternate rules when the main system is what they know though.
Arklore wrote: Going way back to the beginning of this, with 2E you have tons of options on builds that get you away from the 1E big six or the mandatory must-haves.
Perhaps there will be some alternate rules published where instead of runes, martial types will just be able to hit harder or more potently with their weapons similar to heightened spells? Like anything, there are pros and cons to this but in the games/tables I have run, the ability to actually hit seems more critical.
Um PF1 had tons of ways to sidestep the problem of the "big 6" including: Merge items, move items to a different slot, use a different item that gives a similar bonus, or you know just don't care and have fun with weird items.
Also that is exactly what ABP does. Martial deal more damage without runes.
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