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For this, Clumsy is tied to the Stage 2 poison condition. You are only Clumsy if you're at Stage 2, which gives you a save after 2 rounds. So for at least 2 rounds you would be Clumsy, but you would only take the damage when you advance to that stage. If you were to make the save, you would go back to stage one and then take that damage, and one round later you would make another save.
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Wasp Venom (poison) Saving Throw Fortitude DC 21; Maximum Duration 6 rounds; Stage 1 1d6 poison (1 round); Stage 2 2d6 poison and clumsy 2 (2 rounds)
Emphasis added
That poison lasts a maximum of six rounds. Following that duration any conditions associated with it expire.
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Conditions with no stated duration are usually beholden to the duration set by the effect that inflicted them.
Blinded from Blindness and Defeaned from Deafness come to mind.
Spiritual Epidemic is a great example with it setting multiple different durations for conditions. Enfeebled and Stupefied in this case.
[url=https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=258]Restoration[\url]
This spell says that it cures conditions and notes clumsy specifically. The CRB doesn’t note how to remove clumsy otherwise (beyond similar treatment). That may indicate that it is intended to be permanent if multiple failed saves are rolled, but that is pretty loose. If you’re GM insists it is permanent, then find someone to cast the spell.
I suggest rereading the Afflictions rules on CRB pp457-8, and the Conditions Appendix on CRB pp618-23
Wasp Venom is not as problematic as the original post supposes
Conditions are persistent. Whenever you’re affected by a condition, its effects last until the condition’s stated duration ends, the condition is removed, or terms dictated in the condition itself cause it to end.
Condition Values
Some conditions have a numerical value, called a condition value, indicated by a numeral following the condition. This value conveys the severity of a condition, and such conditions often give you a bonus or penalty equal to their value. These values can often be reduced by skills, spells, or simply waiting. If a condition value is ever reduced to 0, the condition ends.
“These values can often be reduced by ... simply waiting.”
such as ‘waiting’ until a poison reaches its maximum duration:Since the poison has a maximum duration of 5 minutes, you recover from it once the 5 minutes pass, no matter which stage you’re at.
no, the GM isn’t required to “since the poison has a maximum duration .., you recover from it once the [duration has passed], no matter which stage you’re at”
yet that is the actual rules example
[url=https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=258]Restoration[\url]
This spell says that it cures conditions and notes clumsy specifically. The CRB doesn’t note how to remove clumsy otherwise (beyond similar treatment). That may indicate that it is intended to be permanent if multiple failed saves are rolled, but that is pretty loose. If you’re GM insists it is permanent, then find someone to cast the spell.
Darn. Still haven’t gotten linking down. :(
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try a / instead of a \
try a / instead of a \
Aha! I didn’t see that...obviously. Thank you.
Woohoo!
official ruling?
is the example included in the rules considered ‘official’?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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there is an example in the rules of how poison works
what the poison is is irrelevant to the validity and general application of the example provided
did the CRB include an example which began with
To see how a poison works, let’s look at the arsenic alchemical item (page 550).
that was intended only as an example of that specific poison and not as an example to be applied broadly to how all poisons work?
sure, one could interpret “To see how a poison works, ...” that wayI’d argue that’s not the novacula Occami interpretation
yet if that’s how your table wants to roll ...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Most DMs would rule that the clumsy condition expires at the end of the six rounds that the poison lasts.
A step beyond would be to rule that it lasts until your next sleep cycle.
Saying that clumsy is permanent until magically healed is IMHO beyond the pale. I suggest you talk with your DM, point out the 6-round duration of the poison and see what he says.
It's ambiguous in the RAW. IF your DM says it's permanent until magically healed, and doesn't want to change that ruling, you have to roll with it.
Maybe try invoking the treat disease or treat poison portions of the Medicine skill, and see if he'll bite.
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Clumsy is part of the stage 2 effect of the poison. It lasts 2 rounds, same as the stage. If you fail your save after those 2 rounds are over, you're re-afflicted with stage 2, so you're clumsy for another 2 rounds.
When you manage to get back to stage 1 or the poison runs its course after 6 rounds, the Clumsy condition ends.
As Red Metal already pointed out, conditions inflicted by afflictions only outlast the condition if they have a specific way of getting rid of them like drained and persistent damage.
Conditions without a build-in way to get rid of them - such as Clumsy, Enfeebled or Flat-Footed - only apply while another thing is in effect. Otherwise, being afflicted by stage 3 Giant Centipede Venom would make you flat-footed FOREVER, since there are no effects in the game that "cure" the flat-footed condition.
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The question is posed the wrong direction.
It's not how long does clumsy last (which has no single answer), but rather how long does this poison (or spell, etc.) that gives clumsy last.
And that, in this case, is 6 rounds maximum, much like a spell lasted 6 rounds maximum and you could save out of it earlier.
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Part of the issue (and I went through this too!) is coming from 3.X/PF1 where ability damage existed. If you got poisoned, you'd expect that damage to stay with you all day. But that's not how it is in PF2. It's not damage, and it has a duration meant for one combat only.
This all came to a head at my table (and I saw similar questions on the forum) vs. a Brain Collector in the playtest whose poison inflicts Slowed which can never be cured nor does Haste dispel it any more. Lots of turmoil, yet in the finished Bestiary, the Brain Collector's poison retained that effect. I had to accept poison had changed.
This doesn't sit well we with me because their are so many narratives of lingering poison damage, but it does suit the mechanics & combat balance of PF2, where such accumulated attrition is generally avoided until higher levels while poisons occur early on. PF2 got rid of the CLW heal stick, yet would've had to keep #2 heal stick for (Lesser) Restoration if they'd kept ability damage around. A monster w/ poison encountered early would be more of an obstacle than one encountered late, and it'd be harder to gauge the party's situation after a gauntlet (while hit points always seem to be topped off). Are they going in with all those conditions? Or does having thought to bring a certain item or spell change the whole balance of the encounter?
Which is all to say that in game terms short-lasting poisons are as sensible as short-lasting battle axe wounds. I like to think of it in Indiana Jones or Die Hard terms, where even after being beat around and on the edge of death/unconsciousness, the hero mostly rebounds after they catch their breath. And they have to since the stakes & enemies get more severe.
For attrition, diseases, curses, and doomed work well.
I think some conditions, like Drained, have recovery delineated because they often can be caused by wounds, not simply poisons. It seems in all other cases, i.e. Ropers, conditions which hinder abilities (ability damage in PF1) come with specific recovery times added.
And there are a few long-lasting poisons and one could build more if one wanted that narrative.
I mean, I'm not sure what you're expecting here. All we can do is rephrase the existing rules to try and make them sound clearer, but it sounds like no matter what's said the GM may have already made up their mind.
Rehashing of everything we can establish from the rules:
Since the poison has a maximum duration of 5 minutes, you recover from it once the 5 minutes pass, no matter which stage you’re at.
Alright, not conclusive yet, since we don't know what "recovering from an affliction" means. We can certainly assume that it means all of its effects are gone, as that's typically what the English word "recover" means in this context, but we'll keep reading just in case.
If an affliction lasts only a limited amount of time, it lists a maximum duration. Once this duration passes, the affliction ends. Otherwise, the affliction lasts until you succeed at enough saves to recover, as described in Stages below.
Okay, same as before: since it doesn't say what an affliction "ending" does it's not 100% clear, but we still have that common sense interpretation on hold in case nothing else mentions it. Anyway, next:
An affliction typically has multiple stages, each of which lists an effect followed by an interval in parentheses. When you reach a given stage of an affliction, you are subjected to the effects listed for that stage.
Okay, we've got a bit of an inkling here just because now we know what an affliction does, so we can make an educated guess of what it means for an affliction to end, but still, there are some questions about how conditions like persistent damage and sickened would work since normally you can get rid of those. Can you get rid of them while under the effects of a poison giving those conditions to you? Do they last after the affliction ends? Well, let's keep reading to see if they add more rules to help clarify:
An affliction might give you conditions with a longer or shorter duration than the affliction.
Alright, finally something directly tackling the issue. You might get a condition for longer or shorter. Okay, so we also might not, then, and in fact, it's pretty clearly assuming that's the default, implying that what it's about to describe is an exception to the rule, and that it usually has the same duration. This makes sense as one possibility if we look back and take a casual reading of stages, duration, etc., and this backs it up further.
Okay, so when might this not be the case, then?For instance, if an affliction causes you to be drained but has a maximum duration of 5 minutes, you remain drained even after the affliction ends, as is normal for the drained condition. Or, you might succeed at the flat check to remove persistent damage you took from an ongoing affliction, but you would still need to attempt saves to remove the affliction itself, and failing one might give you new persistent damage.
Ah, good: 3 examples. Perfect. Let's see if we can extrapolate a general rule from those examples, and why they might override the default of lasting until the duration ends. Hmmmmm, it seems like all of the examples have a listed duration / way of getting rid of them in the condition itself. Almost as if the rule of the specific condition overrides the general rule of the poison going away after a certain amount of time. Good to know, since without this there would be no indication of whether the poison rules or the conditions rules would be the dominant one.
Additional notes:
1. Too bad to be true definitely comes into play here. As Blave mentioned there is literally no way to recover from being flat-flooted listed, well, anywhere. So if a low-level character became flat-footed from a poison, then by your GM's rules they'd remain flat-footed all the way to level 20. A permanent -2 to AC for the duration of that character's life is beyond harsh.
2. If Clumsy isn't an example of something that would go away after the stage goes away, then what would be? It says certain things might have a longer or shorter duration, but it sounds to me like with that ruling nothing is going to have the same duration as the affliction other than through pure coincidence that the stages and/or maximum duration are the same as the condition's natural duration.
An affliction might give you conditions with a longer or shorter duration than the affliction. For instance, if an affliction causes you to be drained but has a maximum duration of 5 minutes, you remain drained even after the affliction ends, as is normal for the drained condition. Or, you might succeed at the flat check to remove persistent damage you took from an ongoing affliction, but you would still need to attempt saves to remove the affliction itself, and failing one might give you new persistent damage.
Reword the first line, "An affliction might give you conditions with a longer or shorter duration than the affliction." In other words, conditions normally give the same duration as listed in the affliction unless the specific condition rules contradict this (like drained), in which case the specific condition rules take precedence.
Looking at your specific poison, note that the interval is listed immediately after the stage's effect. This would be the duration of the condition unless there is any specific text elsewhere which would contradict it (either for the specific condition, or the specific affliction).
Wasp Venom (poison) Saving Throw Fortitude DC 21; Maximum Duration 6 rounds; Stage 1 1d6 poison (1 round); Stage 2 2d6 poison and clumsy 2 (2 rounds)
So hitting Stage 2 would make you clumsy 2 for 2 rounds, after which you have to save against the next interval of the poison. Fail again, and it repeats the highest stage, reapplying clumsy 2 for another 2 rounds. Repeat until you make the save to go back to Stage 1 or you hit the Maximum Duration (for poisons/afflictions which have a maximum duration). After which, you no longer have anything making you clumsy, so you aren't.
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Finally, Slap the GM for failing to apply some common sense. By their reading, because I was stung by a wasp as a child 20+ years ago - I'd still be suffering from a permanent condition because I never got a magical cure. Nearly every affliction would be 10x more deadly under their interpretation, since durations other than interval are almost never included for any condition, meaning every condition would be permanent unless stated otherwise. This does not make any sense, and would make something like Imp Venom (from a level 1 creature) potentially give permanent clumsy 1 and permanent slowed 1, which would absolutely cripple a character from contributing to the party for multiple levels.
Imp Venom (poison) Saving Throw DC 16 Fortitude; Maximum Duration 6 rounds; Stage 1 1d6 poison and clumsy 1 (1 round); Stage 2 1d6 poison damage, clumsy 1, and slowed 1 (1 round)
Hmm. I had assumed this was why the low level alchemical items focused cathartic and sinew shock serum were added--for low level characters that don't yet have access to Restoration yet but could get hit with a bad poison etc.
Hmm. I had assumed this was why the low level alchemical items focused cathartic and sinew shock serum were added--for low level characters that don't yet have access to Restoration yet but could get hit with a bad poison etc.
I mean, yes, getting rid of conditions is what the items that get rid of conditions are useful for... That doesn't mean that those conditions would otherwise be permanent, though. There's also diseases that can give you clumsy and other conditions for multiple days.
Sorry to necro this thread, but found a similar issue with affliction durations I need a ruling on:
For the witch's Curse of Death hex (focus 5), how long does the fatigue inflicted at stages 1+ last?
A) Until the target rolls a sucess at stage 1 and reduces the curse to "stage 0";
B) until the witch stops sustaining the hex or 1 minute expires (whichever comes first); or
C) until the target takes a full night's rest (as is normal for fatigue)?
https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=794
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For the witch's Curse of Death hex (focus 5), how long does the fatigue inflicted at stages 1+ last?
Fatigue is a bit ambiguous because generally fatigued lasts until resting for the night. But the Hex specifies that the curse ends when the spell ends.
A) Until the target rolls a sucess at stage 1 and reduces the curse to "stage 0";
B) until the witch stops sustaining the hex or 1 minute expires (whichever comes first); or
C) until the target takes a full night's rest (as is normal for fatigue)?
A) and B) are the same. Both having the Witch stop sustaining the spell and having the target succeed at enough saves to remove the affliction will end the spell and the curse. And having the conditions end with the curse is one possibility.
C) would be a different possibility since the fatigued condition does have its own rules for when the condition ends.
The best thing to do would be to have your familiar consult with your patron and determine the exact details of how the Hex works.
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Here's what I found about poisons and conditions that 100% clears up the issue.
Some poisons apply the Flat-Footed condition. If the condition remained after the poison, you just have to apply it once and the target would be permanently flat-footed, as there are 0 ways to remove that condition.
As for Curse of Death, the duration is "sustained up to 1 minute". The curse states "This curse ends immediately when the spell ends". So when the spell ends any effects caused by the curse end (except the damage of course.)
Here's what I found about poisons and conditions that 100% clears up the issue.
Some poisons apply the Flat-Footed condition. If the condition remained after the poison, you just have to apply it once and the target would be permanently flat-footed, as there are 0 ways to remove that condition.
As for Curse of Death, the duration is "sustained up to 1 minute". The curse states "This curse ends immediately when the spell ends". So when the spell ends any effects caused by the curse end (except the damage of course.)
Yep. That's one area (perhaps the main one) where my DnD/PF1 experience interfered. Ability penalties were damage (or worse, drain), as were some other conditions. So it seemed obvious that PF2 poisons, curses, et al inflicted Conditions like damage, since that's the traditional way. The playtest Brain Collector's venom had been the worst situation, with no way to end the Slowed Condition! So people debated how to adjudicate recovery. And the published Brain Collector ended up with similar venom! Oh noes...
Except "Conditions are damage" is not true in PF2. If the poison (etc.) doesn't call it out (and some do!), all Conditions end when the poison (etc.) ends, unlike the hit point damage (the only kind of damage). Naturally this may seem to make poisons less powerful in PF2, but experience shows us that's not the case! They're simply front-loaded; rather than working through attrition. Attrition (more specifically variable degrees of infliction & recovery from attrition) makes a major difference in how parties fare in later combats. This makes it difficult to balance those encounter, or to keep the party driven in some cases since they'll know perhaps they should retreat, which often dulls the story's dynamism.
Personally I like attrition, and PCs being resolute against such setbacks, but when creating a baseline system w/ APs for a general audience, I can understand how it's better not to require GM finesse, and to keep each combat distinct in its threat level, much like it takes skill to adjudicate reactive enemy forces.
Here's what I found about poisons and conditions that 100% clears up the issue.
Some poisons apply the Flat-Footed condition. If the condition remained after the poison, you just have to apply it once and the target would be permanently flat-footed, as there are 0 ways to remove that condition.
As for Curse of Death, the duration is "sustained up to 1 minute". The curse states "This curse ends immediately when the spell ends". So when the spell ends any effects caused by the curse end (except the damage of course.)
What about a condition like Drained 1? Would the Drained persist after the affliction expires or would it end when the poison does?
What about a condition like Drained 1? Would the Drained persist after the affliction expires or would it end when the poison does?Here's what I found about poisons and conditions that 100% clears up the issue.
Some poisons apply the Flat-Footed condition. If the condition remained after the poison, you just have to apply it once and the target would be permanently flat-footed, as there are 0 ways to remove that condition.
As for Curse of Death, the duration is "sustained up to 1 minute". The curse states "This curse ends immediately when the spell ends". So when the spell ends any effects caused by the curse end (except the damage of course.)
I have seen enough people discuss Drain as if it were damage that I almost mentioned it. This might be because Drained does have a way to remove w/o magic or because it's often part of a Strike or follow up ability like Drain Blood. Yet nothing states that it is damage or that it persists beyond the duration of any ongoing affliction causing it (like a poison or disease, not immediate effects). Of course specific variants can have specific exceptions, yet there's no notation distinguishing Drained from the other "lowered abilities" conditions.
It seems that all types of Conditions end at the end of the duration of what caused them, with several exceptions which are specifically noted in the creature or spell's entry.
…Yet nothing states that it is damage or that it persists beyond the duration of any ongoing affliction causing it (like a poison or disease, not immediate effects)….It seems that all types of Conditions end at the end of the duration of what caused them, with several exceptions which are specifically noted in the creature or spell's entry.
Thank-you for the response. In that case, can you help me interpret this general rule on afflictions from the PF2 CRB (“Conditions from Afflictions”, CRB pg. 458):
“An affliction might give you conditions with a longer or shorter duration than the affliction by. For instance, if an affliction causes you to be drained but has a maximum duration of 5 minutes, you remain drained even after the affliction ends, as is normal for the drained condition.”
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=368
…Yet nothing states that it is damage or that it persists beyond the duration of any ongoing affliction causing it (like a poison or disease, not immediate effects)….It seems that all types of Conditions end at the end of the duration of what caused them, with several exceptions which are specifically noted in the creature or spell's entry.
Thank-you for the response. In that case, can you help me interpret this general rule on afflictions from the PF2 CRB (“Conditions from Afflictions”, CRB pg. 458):
“An affliction might give you conditions with a longer or shorter duration than the affliction by. For instance, if an affliction causes you to be drained but has a maximum duration of 5 minutes, you remain drained even after the affliction ends, as is normal for the drained condition.”
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=368
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that passage. It's likely why "old me" used to think of Drain as persisting even though I think differently now. The oddity is there's nowhere else (AFAIK of course) that verifies or indicates that persisting after an affliction is "normal for the drained condition." The main reference, the Drained Condition itself, doesn't mention such a trait. With no way to distinguish that I can see between Conditions that persist after an affliction, that trait could be applied equally across the board. That said, since the lower hit points from Drained don't return when its removed, I'd have that be true after an affliction too.
Note that I'm not against a lot of Conditions persisting after an affliction, and maybe all of the lowered ability Conditions (or more) are meant to be read that way! Since most are status penalties, they don't stack so it's hard for them to overwhelm a PC like in PF1. And it lends as I mentioned before to imagery of a resilient hero overcoming adversity. It also helps the "struggling w/ the effects of poison" narrative which is pretty common in adventure stories. The trouble is there's venom like the Brain Collector's w/ Slowed which have no "normal" ending, which since Drained has no mention of a "normal" either might fall under the same ruling...and keep persisting until when? (Note that many stenches cause Slowed on a crit fail, but they explicitly state that Slowed ends when the Sickened Condition ends meaning the "normal" needs explicit mentioning??) Huh.
What do you mean by "Drained doesn't have a normal ending"?
Drained, like frightened, goes away naturally over time. The other ability conditions don't have a natural duration: clumsy, enfeebled, and stupified. They, like slowed, need to have a duration added, because they don't have a normal duration.
A PC recovers from Drained 1 after a full night’s rest. The same is true of Fatigued. Hence my original question about whether Curse of Death is intended to apply a Fatigue that is only removed after a full night’s rest (as is normal for fatigue) or if it immediately falls off after the curse expires.
This mostly matters for when an NPC witch curses a PC (who otherwise might want to continue adventuring for the remainder of the day without a persistent -1 to AC/saves), versus a player using it against a monster (where it would typically only matter until the end of the encounter anyways).
There is an AP I’m running where a witch NPC will be able to really hamper the party depending on how it is interpreted.
https://2e.aonprd.com/NPCs.aspx?ID=1473
What do you mean by "Drained doesn't have a normal ending"?
Drained, like frightened, goes away naturally over time. The other ability conditions don't have a natural duration: clumsy, enfeebled, and stupified. They, like slowed, need to have a duration added, because they don't have a normal duration.
That's an inaccurate quote, as in not a quote from me (at least going back several comments), so not my meaning.
Insight's initial CRB quote mentions that some conditions continue after the affliction then lists Drained as an example that persists afterward. How would one know this? The Drained Condition entry makes no mention of being a condition that does such a thing. There is no "normal" for Drained re: extending past its affliction.
Yes, there's a normal for recovering from it if there's no duration given (though often there is and one might think of the affliction as providing such a duration). From this one could answer from the opposite direction and guess that since Drained tells us how it might be ended that therefore it doesn't end when part of an affliction, yet there's a missing step there IMO and doesn't match the phrasing from Insight's CRB quote.
I consider getting a full rest an activity to end the Drained condition, as the condition itself would continue indefinitely on its own. And as Insight mentioned, this would imply Fatigued continued too (and maybe others, also unmarked as continuing past their afflictions). With the lack of verification, it seems Insight's CRB quote might have been from a previous view of lessened abilities, one more like PF1's, and which passed editing. There's no indication I know of under any Condition that it lasts past its affliction, including Drained except for in that quote, not under Drained itself.
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Yeah, there is a bit of a RAW vs RAI in this.
I think that RAW (because of that Conditions from Afflicions rule that you mention) says that any condition that has its own:
a) listed duration as part of the condition
b) method of removing the condition that doesn't involve magic (but does include resting for multiple days)
that the condition would normally persist after the affliction ends. This is what the example in the rule text is indicating - any affliction that causes the Drained condition would cause the full duration Drained condition that could only be removed through the normal means of removing the Drained condition. It wouldn't be removed just by ending the affliction.
But it isn't completely clear about that because it uses 'might'. "An affliction might give you conditions with a longer or shorter duration than the affliction." And this leads to the possible RAI that unless the affliction actually says that its conditions are applied for their normal duration, that they all expire along with the affliction even if the condition can normally last longer. Which Castilliano pointed out very nicely for game encounter balance reasons here:
Attrition (more specifically variable degrees of infliction & recovery from attrition) makes a major difference in how parties fare in later combats. This makes it difficult to balance those encounter, or to keep the party driven in some cases since they'll know perhaps they should retreat, which often dulls the story's dynamism.
I don't think that anyone is arguing in support of the idea that (RAW or RAI) a condition that doesn't have a built-in duration or method of removing the condition (for example, flat-footed) would persist after the end of the condition. It is only unclear in cases (such as Drained or Fatigued) where the condition does provide its own duration and/or method of removal.
And I think it is a more RAW reading of the Conditions from Afflictions rule that conditions with their own duration would use their own duration instead of ending with the affliction automatically. But that does cause the attrition problem that makes remaining encounters harder to balance.
So fatigued is a condition that you would normally expect to continue beyond the duration of an affliction. That is probably not intended for the Curse of Death.
So fatigued is a condition that you would normally expect to continue beyond the duration of an affliction. That is probably not intended for the Curse of Death.
Indeed. Which is why I would check for possible balance problems with the GM.
Personally I would very likely rule that the Fatigued condition from the Hex would end with the ending of the Hex rather than having to suffer with it for the rest of the day. Day-long fatigue is something that a player would normally have to inflict on themselves by overworking themselves in exploration mode.
But I also feel that this is a ruling that goes against the general rule for conditions. It is an unstated exception that I would be introducing.
So fatigued is a condition that you would normally expect to continue beyond the duration of an affliction. That is probably not intended for the Curse of Death.Well, it takes a level 10 feat to inflict it. Level 10 feats in many classes are conspicuously strong.
I keep thinking of hexes as cantrips, but they aren't. For a level 10 feat and a Focus Point, fatigued is an appropriate condition to extend past the affliction. Those status penalties won't stack with other conditions. And PCs can remove fatigued by level 7, at least.
So yeah. I'd say the fatigued condition from Curse of Death works normally. It should last past the duration of the spell until the subject removes it or gets a full night's rest.
Concur. Thanks for all the input.