I'm not particularly sure either is an actual issue. The Boost system allows for an Ability distribution that doesn't cause any class to be unable to account for their Ability Flaw corresponding with a Save, and weak saves themselves aren't particularly more debilitating than in prior editions.
The boost system just helps you keep up on the +1/lvl treadmill. If you were bad in levels 1-4, you will still be bad after boosts. It's the proficiencies that help you get ahead. Some of the solutions seem to be to let folks choose their important stats and then everyone has the exact same defense. Seems awful homogenizing to me tho.
The boost system just helps you keep up on the +1/lvl treadmill.
The creation boosts were what I was referring to. With them you are able to not be disadvantaged on saves derived from your ability scores.
The conversation isn't about removing saves from the game entirely, but about uncoupling them from ability scores.
The boost system just helps you keep up on the +1/lvl treadmill.The creation boosts were what I was referring to. With them you are able to not be disadvantaged on saves derived from your ability scores.
The conversation isn't about removing saves from the game entirely, but about uncoupling them from ability scores.
Makes a little more sense then. The conversation has turned towards picking the stats you like for saves as opposed to unbuckling them. I was addressing that, which I know hasnt been your position. Sorry about that.
Makes a little more sense then. The conversation has turned towards picking the stats you like for saves as opposed to unbuckling them. I was addressing that, which I know hasnt been your position. Sorry about that.
I'm not sure why you assumed I was talking about boosts at 5, 10, 15 and 20, I did specifically mention using them to mitigate an instance where a save was tied to an ability flaw.
Choosing your preferred stat would remove the need to use a boost to offset a flaw and would allow for the best possible saves - which would mean that no class is unfairly penalized by saves in either version.
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The boost system just helps you keep up on the +1/lvl treadmill. If you were bad in levels 1-4, you will still be bad after boosts. It's the proficiencies that help you get ahead. Some of the solutions seem to be to let folks choose their important stats and then everyone has the exact same defense. Seems awful homogenizing to me tho.
I'm not particularly sure either is an actual issue. The Boost system allows for an Ability distribution that doesn't cause any class to be unable to account for their Ability Flaw corresponding with a Save, and weak saves themselves aren't particularly more debilitating than in prior editions.
Saves would be homogenized to the class norm with my preference, for sure, but attributes would be more diversified. I think that's better than the current design.
As is, the problem is that Int, Cha, and Str are typically worse stats if they aren't primary stats.
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For the ''omniscient lich'' scenario:
How does it know? Did it use an action in combat? in which case, cool, roll the skill agaisnt an extremely hard recall knowledge check of the PC's level, because the PC is Unique.
Did it use scrying? That's a nice metacombat spell, it requires a save though, and a link to the target. Plus it can be countered by savy players (my players know that my monsters scry, and they take precautions for that).
Did it use Clairvoyance/Clairaudience/arcane eye? Well then that's an invisibile sensor, players have options for these.
I would design an intelligent creature's home so that the master of the lair has very clear advantages over anybody entering it.
So our Lich might invest in some mirrors that let him or his spies see the party without themselves being spotted. They might create listening tubes that funnel sounds into a room but that is vastly less effective at send sound back out the other way. They could even have little nooks where they could tuck away a familiar or invisible sensor to spy without being easily detected. They may go so far as to move about via hidden passages and cast speak with dead on slain allies to find out how the party defeated them and gain knowledge that way. Are any of these things beyond the ability of a paranoid lich or an ancient and territorial dragon?
If an enemy had an entire dungeon to observe the players would it really be so unreasonable that they would know the party's weakest saves?
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As for saves themselves, I don't ever want to punish my players for roleplaying. It should feel equally good to play a character who's a bit shy or slow as it does one who is naive. One that is strong and swift but that has always been sickly versus a strong tough character who trips over their own feet should also be equal in the eyes of the rules. If 6 stats can't do that then they should have been the first rules to see the ax.
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Personally, I really like the idea that the vast majority of adventurers write off intelligence as an important attribute. Something about that feels fitting.
Charisma is as important of a stat as the GM makes it. That is probably for the best. Having a character who can't ever seem to get anyone to particularly like them has a lot of its own challenges, but not every game needs to highlight that.
Strength is only "ignorable" for casters and thief rogues, and even then an 8 can put you in a bind if you like to do stuff with stuff. If anything, being able to get a +3 bonus to most reflex saves and an even higher AC than a Dex based character has led to way more characters dumping Dex than I have ever seen before.
A party without anyone with any STR, INT or CHA is going to have real problems. CON is pretty much the only stat in the game that is a really, really bad idea to completely dump, but even starting with an 8 and boosting it regularly is playable.
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Personally, I really like the idea that the vast majority of adventurers write off intelligence as an important attribute. Something about that feels fitting.Councilor: So your goal is to, let me see here ... "Roam the countryside, fight all the monsters, take all of their stuff, and spend it on things to let you fight the bigger monsters?"
Adventurer: You didn't read the bottom.
Councilor: Oh. "Plus booze."
Adventurer: Yep.
Councilor: As, as a career path?
Adventurer: Yep!
Councilor: I have to say, with the overheads you're expecting ... I don't see how you can make a living off of this.
Adventurer: Oh I have a plan for the overheads.
Councilor: Oh?
Adventurer: I'll wear a helmet!
Yeah, those characters sound very wise. I'm glad Wisdom is one of those universal good stats most everyone is going to want to bump, because it definitely fits here.
Honestly yeah the problem with stats as they are right now is that Str, Int, and Cha are severely limited.
* Str always had problems justifying itself given that the only people who wanted it were non-finesse weapon users.
* Int was slightly better off because it gave a lot of skills and all classes had some way to make use of it besides a bit more languages. In essense the "you get a trained skill and thats it" screwed Int to becoming less relevant.
* Cha itself wasn't very needed. But it had many ways to become super relevant to the point that some character could run using only Cha. The fact that Cleric, Paladin, and Bard all relied on Cha for some class features made sure it was always well represented.
So what can be done? Well add more abilities that rely on Str, Int, and/or Cha. Allow those stats to replace others where it makes sense. Make it so you get bonuses in other skills for having those stats high.
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* p.s. I personally like 7 stats: Str, Dex, Con, Mind, Wis, Cha, and Luck. But those stats require a complete rebalancing pf PF2 to make them work. Can't have luck be a unique stat being a free +X to things when you have a tight math.
As someone who's been running at Str 10, if you actually track Bulk it's really rough. I've got a rapier, whip, leather armour, and a Cloak of Repute.
For those of you that know the numbers, that means I can't carry a bow, because the Bulk puts me over. Even with a flintlock musket, the L bulk is pretty tight. (It's technically more complicated, because there's a Glove of Storing in the picture, and one of those weapons is actually a Shifting gauntlet, but either way it's tough.)
Cha is very important for talking to anyone, but it also gates Incredible Investiture, which can be really handy. My above character is at 9 investment at level 9.
I'm actually also feeling the limitations of 12 Int as well. Not having the spare feats to take Untrained Improvisation, plus it being the stat for languages, majority of knowledge, and Lore, means that I've definitely felt the skill strain. While I think it's probably one of the skills you can do the most without, it definitely has an impact if it's low.
If Will gets shifted to CHA, I actually like the spread of things. Dex doesn't have a crazy amount and Strength has athletics. Intelligence has skills. Constitution helps you not die, and Wisdom would have Initiative. Maybe Int needs more, but at higher levels, you start to really feel the untrained skills.
They did tie magic items and use to CHA, everybody but me hated it.
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Simple Class Analysis for Two-Stat Saves
(Fortitude @ ST/CON, Reflex @ DX/INT, Will @ WIS/CHA)
by Key Ability
Alchemist > boost to Reflex saves
Barbarian > boost to Fortitude saves
Bard > boost to Will saves
Champion > boost to Fortitude saves (or little change)
Cleric > little change
Druid > little change
Fighter > boost to Fortitude saves (or little change)
Investigator > boost to Reflex saves
Monk > boost to Fortitude saves (or little change)
Oracle > boost to Will saves
Ranger > boost to Fortitude saves (or little change)
Rogue > boost to Fortitude saves (or little change)
Sorcerer > boost to Will saves
Swashbuckler > little change
Witch > boost to Reflex saves
Wizard > boost to Reflex saves
or
Fortitude boost @ Barbarian, Champion, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue
Reflex boost @ Alchemist, Investigator, Witch, Wizard
Will boost @ Bard, Oracle, Sorcerer
little change @ Cleric, Druid, Swashbuckler
Obviously this analysis is over-simplified - I assume here that characters will prioritize their Key Ability above all else - but for the sake of the argument I wanted to start simple.
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If Will gets shifted to CHA, I actually like the spread of things. Dex doesn't have a crazy amount and Strength has athletics. Intelligence has skills. Constitution helps you not die, and Wisdom would have Initiative. Maybe Int needs more, but at higher levels, you start to really feel the untrained skills.
It's actually kinda weird, because I feel if you removed Will from Wis, it's left with only Perception. Which, while it's good, is really not enough to make an entire stat worth it.
Meanwhile, Cha suddenly shifts to the big social stat and a defensive stat at the same time.
Bulk limits are pretty easily resolved by a bag of holding / backpack if you don’t need all the items in combat, or a couple skill feats (hefty hauler, trick magic item wand of ant haul).
Being lacking in your will save, no way to mitigate that easily...
Charmed Life or Divine Grace are two ways, but that's definitely more restrictive. There's also a few ancestry-based ways, and Canny Acumen can also help patch you up for a good period of time. There's also a few ancestry-based ones like Know Oneself or Keep Up Appearances (less useful).
So maybe not easily, but there are ways.
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It's actually kinda weird, because I feel if you removed Will from Wis, it's left with only Perception. Which, while it's good, is really not enough to make an entire stat worth it.
I mean... and medicine (arguably the most important skill in the game), plus nature survival and religion.
So it'd 'only' be the core attribute for healing, how you detect traps and ambushes, initiative, the other big social attribute, and one of the main engines for recall knowledge.
That's still a lot of things.
Personally, I prefer 'highest mental attribute' as a solution over locking it specifically to Cha though.
Mentioned at the tail end of last page that I agree, I think things look a fair bit more balanced all of a sudden if you can tie Will to any of the mental stats.
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Charmed Life or Divine Grace are two ways, but that's definitely more restrictive. There's also a few ancestry-based ways, and Canny Acumen can also help patch you up for a good period of time. There's also a few ancestry-based ones like Know Oneself or Keep Up Appearances (less useful).
So maybe not easily, but there are ways.
Both require 14 cha and 14 in another stat (dex/str), two class feats and a reaction. Ancestry ones are far more limited in application, and canny acumen doesn't help at most levels actually - the worst will save is alchemist who gets expert at 7, which means canny doesn't help them for a total of 9 levels (8-16) - fighters and rangers will not get any benefit for 15 levels (3-16) and I think every other class in the game won't get benefit until 17 if at all.
Compared to... a skill training and a skill feat for bulk.