Can you make iterative attacks with thrown weapons as long as you can get them into your hand as a free action, or is Quick Draw absolutely necessary?
The thrown weapon rules state:
The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
While Quick Draw states that it allows you to make iterative attacks with thrown weapons:
You can draw weapons faster than most.Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
For some context, I was toying around with a silly Coin Shot build when I ran across this problem. Coin Shot lets you draw the coins as if they were ammunition, thus as a free action, just like shuriken - but when I went looking for shuriken oriented builds I was surprised to Quick Draw conspicuously absent from most.
So, am I missing a rule, misinterpreting something, or just seeing a common house-rule in action?
Can you make iterative attacks with thrown weapons as long as you can get them into your hand as a free action, or is Quick Draw absolutely necessary?
The thrown weapon rules state:
The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Your bolded text applies when you are throwing a zero-range weapon; either that, or it's... not the greatest text editing ever.
While Quick Draw states that it allows you to make iterative attacks with thrown weapons:
Because without Quick Draw, drawing a weapon (other than ammo or shuriken) is a move action. Iterative attacks require the Full Attack, which is a full-round action; as such, you can't normally attempt it.
Drawing ammo or shuriken is already a free action. This is why bows (which load as a free action) and shuriken can do iterative attacks with no feat investment at all, while other thrown weapons need Quick Draw, and other ranged weapons need Rapid Reload and other time-savers.
Coin Toss behaves like shuriken, and therefore can also make iterative attacks without Quick Draw.
Your bolded text applies when you are throwing a zero-range weapon; either that, or it's... not the greatest text editing ever.
I see how the bolded part could be read as only applying to weapons that aren't designed to be thrown, but there's nothing to indicate that's how it should be read.
... Not the greatest text editing either way.
Because without Quick Draw, drawing a weapon (other than ammo or shuriken) is a move action. Iterative attacks require the Full Attack, which is a full-round action; as such, you can't normally attempt it.
Drawing ammo or shuriken is already a free action. This is why bows (which load as a free action) and shuriken can do iterative attacks with no feat investment at all, while other thrown weapons need Quick Draw, and other ranged weapons need Rapid Reload and other time-savers.
Coin Toss behaves like shuriken, and therefore can also make iterative attacks without Quick Draw.
Right, I get that drawing ammunition is a free action - I did mention it in the OP - and I'm clear on what kind on action it is to draw a weapon normally or take a full attack.
The real sticking point here is that the rules for thrown weapons seem to explicitly state that throwing a weapon is a standard action, and that Quick Draw explicitly states that it allows iterative attacks with thrown weapons. Taken together, that seems to suggest that you can't make a full attack with thrown weapons, no matter how fast you can draw them, unless you have Quick Draw.
I suppose we could chalk up that bit in the rules to poor editing, and call the bit in Quick Draw reminder text, but that seems kind of tenuous. I was hoping I was missing something more concrete.
I see how the bolded part could be read as only applying to weapons that aren't designed to be thrown, but there's nothing to indicate that's how it should be read.
Actually, there is. Just look at the two sentences that follows: "Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet." Per the rules of the English language, the term "such an attack" must refer to the last mentioned attack, in this case the sentence you bolded. Now, we know for a fact that these two sentences don't apply to all weapons that're thrown, because otherwise, thrown weapons with ranges over 10ft wouldn't make any sense. Since these two sentences a) clearly don't apply to weapons designed to be thrown, and b) must refer to the sentence you've bolded in your quote, it follows that the bolded part also can't refer to throwing a weapon designed to be thrown.
Yes, it's confusingly written, but it's not actually ambiguous.
The text in Quick Draw is not reminder text, but rather allows a character to make a full attack throwing weapons not designed for that, i.e. it overrides the part you bolded.
Note: Per this FAQ, a character could start the turn wielding a one-handed thrown weapon in each hand, and throw both weapons in a full attack, without using the TWF rules.
Actually, there is. Just look at the two sentences that follows: "Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet." Per the rules of the English language, the term "such an attack" must refer to the last mentioned attack, in this case the sentence you bolded. Now, we know for a fact that these two sentences don't apply to all weapons that're thrown, because otherwise, thrown weapons with ranges over 10ft wouldn't make any sense. Since these two sentences a) clearly don't apply to weapons designed to be thrown, and b) must refer to the sentence you've bolded in your quote, it follows that the bolded part also can't refer to throwing a weapon designed to be thrown.
Yes, it's confusingly written, but it's not actually ambiguous.
Thanks, that clears things up! Score one for close reading - I totally glossed over the fact that that last sentence wouldn't make any sense if applied to all of the thrown weapons with completely different stat blocks.
Looking into it, the issue isn't actually the writing, but the formatting of the text. The entire segment on thrown weapons was copy-pasted from 3.5, only there, the part about unintended throwing weapons (everything after "It is possible") is a seperate paragraph. Paizo removed the line break and indent, thus not clearly seperating the two parts of the text that were intended to be seperate.
just as an aside. If you are going for a thrown weapon build, you need to invest in a "Sharding" weapon. No need for quick draw, returning weapons, or multiple weapons of the same type/bonus.
Another thing to remember is that not all thrown weapons are considered ammunition. Only a select few, most notably shuriken, are considered ammunition and thus drawn as free actions by default. Without quick draw or some other ability to get a weapon in your hand as a free action, most thrown weapons can’t be used for iterative attacks (beyond wielding two and throwing with each hand)
Also... Derklord you’re wrong about the RAW fo throwing two weapons one in each hand. The FAQ you linked even says as much. You only use the rules and penalties for two-weapon fighting if you are including the extra offhand attacks in your attack sequence. Per RAW you may make your iterative attacks with any combination of weapons. Wielding two thrown weapons with a +6/+1 BAB would let you throw one at +6 then throw the other at +1 and deal full damage with both, you don’t have an “offhand” until you include the extra attacks from two-weapon fighting. If you do include the extra attacks however, the rules for two-weapon fighting restrict your weapon choices for your iterative to just your main hand weapon.
Also... Derklord you’re wrong about the RAW fo throwing two weapons one in each hand. The FAQ you linked even says as much. You only use the rules and penalties for two-weapon fighting if you are including the extra offhand attacks in your attack sequence.
The TWF rules and the off-hand damage bonus rules are completely seperate (the TWF rules are on pg. 202, the off-hand damage rules on pg. 179). And it's not that you only have an off-hand when using TWF, for example, the buckler description mentions "using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon". Also, the TWF rules begin with "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand", if you didn't have an off hand when not usign TWF, you couldn't ever fulfill that requirement, and couldn't use TWF in the first place. Catch-22.
It's entire possible that the half strength thing was only intended for TWFing (I think the FAQ I linked in my last post was an outright change to the rules), and indeed there's a (unofficial, as usual) dev post saying that you do only reduce your strength bonus when TWFing, but the rules simply say "When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus." There is no indication that this is in any way tied to the TWF option, and thus RAW it applies to any attack you make with your second hand.
@OP
Just get Quick Draw and a Blinkback Belt to make sure you can get all your iterative attacks. Otherwise, drawing a weapon is going to be a Move Action. There are exceptions to this, like Shurikens, but if you're throwing Daggers, Axes, and Hunga Mungas, you need Quick Draw.
Can’t you move the weapon to your primary hand for the iterative as two free actions?
Yes kinda. I think it's so insignificant that it's considered "Not An Action", and is considered as part of making the attack (much like the "Not An Action" of retrieving and nocking an arrow as part of making the attack). What I'm saying to say is that I think that switching hands with a weapon is so much of a Free Action that it's not even considered an actual action.
Not an Action
Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
It doesn't explicitly have Switching Hands with a Weapon as an example in here, but that's where I would put this action.
i was more thinking ofJust get Quick Draw and a Blinkback Belt
Can’t you move the weapon to your primary hand for the iterative as two free actions?Yes kinda. I think it's so insignificant that it's considered "Not An Action", and is considered as part of making the attack (much like the "Not An Action" of retrieving and nocking an arrow as part of making the attack). What I'm saying to say is that I think that switching hands with a weapon is so much of a Free Action that it's not even considered an actual action.
It doesn't explicitly say that in here, but that's where I would put this.Not an Action
Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
technically applies only to two handed weapons, but should apply to 1-handed weapons that can be wielded in one hand, and not clear why transferring light weapons from hand to hand should be more onerous.Two-Handed Weapons: What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands?
Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, cast a spell as a standard action, and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action; this means the wizard is still able to make attacks of opportunity with the weapon (which requires using two hands).As with any free action, the GM may decide a reasonable limit to how many times per round you can release and re-grasp the weapon (one release and re-grasp per round is fair).
Yeah, that's a fair example too. A specifically-called out example of a Free Action is to drop an item in your square, and that's kinda what you're doing, except you're also catching it :P I think that Switching Hands with a Weapon could either be a Free Action or Not An Action.
@ Ryze Kuja
Thanks, that's a handy combo I'll have to remember, but the silly build that prompted this thread exclusively used ammunition.
just as an aside. If you are going for a thrown weapon build, you need to invest in a "Sharding" weapon. No need for quick draw, returning weapons, or multiple weapons of the same type/bonus.
Didn't know about that enchantment, thanks! The only way I can see to get that to combo with Coin Shot though is to grab a few Occultist levels and buff the coins with Legacy Weapon, and I'm not entirely sure that works with RAW or could be worked in a playable build.
Still a great mental image though, and if it worked you could throw platinum for days.
not clear why transferring light weapons from hand to hand should be more onerous.because then someone will try to argue TWF with a single dagger by swapping it hand to hand between attacks
Someone tried to make that argument in my group already... the DM said no.
seriously guys, look at what the Sharding Magic enhancement does for a throwing dagger...
it removes the need for all of these issues.
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seriously guys, look at what the Sharding Magic enhancement does for a throwing dagger...
it removes the need for all of these issues.
Sure, but there's a lot of game before you can afford a +3 weapon. What do you do for all those levels? Just suck?
Wbl guidelines suggest 10th level 62k(use only 1/3 character wealth on a single item)
So what do you do until then? Assuming your hand actually makes it to 10
Or should every thrown build just be weapon master fighter with dueling gloves?
seriously guys, look at what the Sharding Magic enhancement does for a throwing dagger...
Seriously guy, sharding is crap for most characters, and especially for the OP, who had a specific build in mind where sharding is absolutely not an option.
In addition to the cost issue Name Violation brought up, sharding has a pathetic 10ft range increment, which means the only time you don't take a range penalty is when attacking something you could've hit with a reach weapon. Considering that you're +2 behind on attack and damage from the enchantment cost...
seriously guys, look at what the Sharding Magic enhancement does for a throwing dagger...Seriously guy, sharding is crap for most characters, and especially for the OP, who had a specific build in mind where sharding is absolutely not an option.
In addition to the cost issue Name Violation brought up, sharding has a pathetic 10ft range increment, which means the only time you don't take a range penalty is when attacking something you could've hit with a reach weapon. Considering that you're +2 behind on attack and damage from the enchantment cost...
I've never had an issue being in the 10' range increment. most dungeon rooms are pretty small, and most enemies move to engage the party.
AS for the wealth by level. you don't really get enough attacks to make iterative a major issue until you can afford a sharding weapon. I mean, you need 3 attacks before the whole quick draw kicks in. you can affords it at 7th level if you go WBL, but I find many games will be above that. the best item to use in the meantime is a blink back belt, sure you need quick draw, but you are still limited to your number of attacks per round, but you're only building up a single thrown weapon, and once you can afford the sharding weapon you sell the blink back belt off to help cover the cost and you retrain the quick draw feat.