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The name was just a fun little thing I came up with. Its not someones actual dungeon. Now then.
About 4 weeks from now, a player in my IRL group will be running a danger dungeon "oneshot" ( that likely will end up a two or three off for sessions). That is, a highly unforgiving and deadly dungeon reminiscent to tomb of horrors. Though not quite to that level. Both in his harshness and in its character level.
There are a few special caveats to this-
We rolled stats, I have an 18, 17, 15, 14, 08, 08 before modifiers.
We as players cannot discuss anything about what class we will be playing. That is, if we show up with 5 wizards, we get 5 wizards to run the dungeon with.
We get one, and only one, trait.
We get elephant in the room feat tax (the original, short version, not the overhauled version)
We will start at level 8, and go to level 10 supposedly- this was sort of on the fence. He is considering starting at 9 and just running through it as level 9 the whole time.
He stated that there WILL be social encounters that could make the gungeon easier or more difficult depending.
resting is dangerous, and random encounters while resting will be a common occurrence. (I think he said something about having a safe room or two we could rest in once or twice?) As such "nova" style classes will have it harder, but classes that make use of longer buffs may be better off.
Traps, tons of traps. Some designed to kill, others designed to split the party up for extended periods of time.
Now, this brings me to my predicament. I am having a hard time choosing a class, much less a build. I've got several ideas, and I figured I'd look to the boards for some help. Both in "optimization" and in picking a good class I would enjoy for this.
Concepts I've been toying with other the past week-
1. Black blade magus focusing on buff spells (shield, mirror image, blur, etc) with only a couple spells dedicated to "nova" style for extreme situations.
2. Alchemist/master chemyst focusing on long term self buffing similar to the magus. I considered taking vivisectionist but I'm hesitant on swapping out the utility of bombs entirely. Likely taking Beastmorph and considering the Crypt Breaker as well. I like this one better than magus at the moment because it feels more self sufficient and versatile. Being able to shore up weaknesses in the blind group.
3. Investigator (empiricist) This one I like because it would help alleviate any dungeon concerns thanks to its ridiculous skill check abilities via inspiration and Empiricist's stat swapping. It brings the same great self buffs as the alchemist minus the greater/grand mutagens, and comes with a decent combat buff in study target. It likely won't hit as hard as the alchemist (especially a Vivisectionist) or have the utility of bombs but would at least make sure the group has trapfinding, while still being useful in combat and decent if the party gets split up.
4. Inquisitor. I Feel this one has less self buffing potential compared to the alchemist or investigator, but would be better at both preventing and removing crowd control. Bane is great for nova, though the limited amount of rest we will get makes it less applicable. Likely would go for a ranged build, which would present its own problems in a confined dungeon. Has the added bonus of being a spontaneous caster. So can make use of spells as needed.
5. Necromancer wizard. A wizard focused on nercomancy/transmutation/conjuration. Undead master to have a "pet" skeleton and can either raise defeated foes as allies or take control of any mindless undead we run into. Always has access to spells, which is nice. But high possibility of running out of spells due to limited resting potential.
6. A fighter with a 1 level brawler dip. The "iron caster". AWT would be warrior spirit and armed bravery most likely. With an investment in gloves of dueling.
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Similar to 3., how about an Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 1/Empiricist Investigator X? I played one in CotCT, and found it very effective.
Or you could play a strength-based Empiricist Investigator with a longspear and Combat Reflexes.
Either of these have plenty of long-duration buffs. You would probably want to take the Student of Philosophy trait.
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For a blind group I think the prepared casters work better - leave a few spell/extract slots open and you can adjust what you have on hand better than a spontaneous caster. If you go with one of those a trait to adjust a social skill (probably diplomacy) from Cha to Int seems like the best value.
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resting is dangerous, and random encounters while resting will be a common occurrence. (I think he said something about having a safe room or two we could rest in once or twice?) As such "nova" style classes will have it harder, but classes that make use of longer buffs may be better off.
Rope Trick! Rope Trick? Rope Trick.
Now you can rest whenever and ignore any random encounters. If you fill the space up to the 8 creature limit it's impossible for enemies to climb into it, making it completely safe.
Traps, tons of traps. Some designed to kill, others designed to split the party up for extended periods of time.
A good perception bonus seems vital. If you can get your hands on a familiar, Figment specifically, it can be very proficient in perception. If you add the Sage archetype you don't even need to invest skill ranks.
A Sage/Figment Greensting Scorpion Familiar would at level 8 have a +23 Perception bonus, or a +31 Perception bonus if you choose Skill Focus with its free feat and buy it the Eyes of the Eagle.
With the same investment (excluding the Skill Focus and magic item) it would at the same time have a +34 Stealth modifier, making it a great scout.
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The rope cannot be removed or hidden. - enemies could climb it is they wished. The party is only 5 players.
enemies that do find the rope can easily set an ambush. After all, once the spell ends everyone in it is shunted out. Basically giving an entire surprise round to whatever is waiting for us on the other side.
familiar idea is interesting, but I don't want to base a build around that per say...
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The party is only 5 players.
But that doesn't mean 5 creatures. If you've bought three rats then they can fill up any creature slots left after the party is in it. Or the nightwatch just casually informs you that a single unarmed enemy is trying to climb up, and it gets 5 readied actions to the face.
And the surprise round, if it happened, would be in your favor. Even if enemies know about the Rope Trick spell and can identify the rope as being that particular spell, they have no idea when the spell ends and can't see through the invisible window.
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The party is only 5 players.But that doesn't mean 5 creatures. If you've bought three rats then they can fill up any creature slots left after the party is in it. Or the nightwatch just casually informs you that a single unarmed enemy is trying to climb up, and it gets 5 readied actions to the face.
And the surprise round, if it happened, would be in your favor. Even if enemies know about the Rope Trick spell and can identify the rope as being that particular spell, they have no idea when the spell ends and can't see through the invisible window.
"readied action, when something falls out, I hit it"
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Mirror Hideaway is a better rope trick. The mirror can be hidden, and only creatures that could fit through the mirror can get into the hideaway.
It's hard to beat a phantom companion for dungeon crawling.
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The party is only 5 players.But that doesn't mean 5 creatures. If you've bought three rats then they can fill up any creature slots left after the party is in it. Or the nightwatch just casually informs you that a single unarmed enemy is trying to climb up, and it gets 5 readied actions to the face.
And the surprise round, if it happened, would be in your favor. Even if enemies know about the Rope Trick spell and can identify the rope as being that particular spell, they have no idea when the spell ends and can't see through the invisible window.
Rope trick is a great spell, but I think you're overselling it.
It really comes down to the type and intelligence of the enemies in the dungeon, but I'd call it a far cry from: "Now you can rest whenever and ignore any random encounters."
Not only can enemies crawl up the rope, if they successfully identify the spell they can just lay a trap and wait for the duration to end (as the OP correctly pointed out but seem to have skipped over). The enemy could either easily ready actions or get a surprise round after arranging the area in a manner most favorable to them.
Worse yet, depending on the nature of the random encounters (if they're cooperative) you could snag multiple random encounters due to your stationary position, significantly increasing the difficulty.
You'd get your 8 hours rest, certainly, which is a positive. Without risk? No.
There are other spells and items that mimic rope trick with less downsides, I don't think there's any that have none at this level.
PS: The rat trick is clever but smells of cheese.
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Hm. To the OP's actual question, cleric, druid, or witch isn't a bad idea.
If you have more than one healer/condition remover/dead raiser that's hardly going to be an issue, and I doubt you'll have 5. Conversly, you'll be at significant disadvantage if you have none.
Multiple witches benefit from cackle, and reincarnate (druid and witch) is a really good spell for bringing back allies on the cheap, no matter how mangled the bodies.
Both cleric and druid can get an animal companion, and the witch's familiar can function as scout/sentry/item caster or even a mauler on the front lines.
Obviously, you'd still need a skill based character, but in terms of versatility you have the entire cleric/druid spell list at your disposal. For a witch, buy lots of scrolls. Both to feed to your familiar and to keep on hand.
PS: The Witch has one of the strongest offensive spell lists on the game (debuff and control) but one of the weakest on defense. Look for ways to shore this up.
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Honestly the rat trick is clever, and I like it. But yes, I doubt it would go unpunished in this type of game.
As a GM, I'd not allow this kind of direct abuse of the mechanics from either the players or use it myself.
A rat swarm of 300 rats takes up a 10' x 10' square.
Now, if you bought a bunch of medium-sized on the other hand...
PS: A particularly large enemy or one with reach might be able to just stab across the barrier...
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a counter point. The spell specifically says living creatures. Now, lets hope you don't let a bug get into it before you do! But would you limit the amount of space for larger sized creatures? (which theoretically would nerf the spell)
Also, it states attacks cannot pass through the portal. So no matter how big, it doesn't work unless you ignore the spell itself. You have to cross over the portal to attack. (thus exposing yourself to whatever is on the other side)
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"readied action, when something falls out, I hit it"
:/
You can't just "ready an action" for multiple hours. That's a turn order game mechanic. Who goes first in such situations is decided by initiative. Otherwise everyone would simply walk around in dungeons with readied actions all the time.
The party is behind an invisible one-way barrier. You have full vision of what they're attempting out there, while they're completely in the dark. This means that when you decide to start combat (with an ally jumping out), everyone else still in the extradimensional space gets a surprise round.
Because the enemies on the ground are not aware of the rest of the party.
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.
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Rope trick is a great spell, but I think you're overselling it.
It really comes down to the type and intelligence of the enemies in the dungeon, but I'd call it a far cry from: "Now you can rest whenever and ignore any random encounters."
Not only can enemies crawl up the rope, if they successfully identify the spell they can just lay a trap and wait for the duration to end (as the OP correctly pointed out but seem to have skipped over). The enemy could either easily ready actions or get a surprise round after arranging the area in a manner most favorable to them.
But that was already true without Rope Trick. By using the spell they can rest when they need to and additionally they aren't forced into retaliating before they're ready if a SWAT team of liches bursts through the door.
Which is what I meant by "Now you can rest whenever and ignore any random encounters".
PS: The rat trick is clever but smells of cheese.
Well they are rats.
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"readied action, when something falls out, I hit it":/
You can't just "ready an action" for multiple hours. That's a turn order game mechanic. Who goes first in such situations is decided by initiative. Otherwise everyone would simply walk around in dungeons with readied actions all the time.
The party is behind an invisible one-way barrier. You have full vision of what they're attempting out there, while they're completely in the dark. This means that when you decide to start combat (with an ally jumping out), everyone else still in the extradimensional space gets a surprise round.
Because the enemies on the ground are not aware of the rest of the party.
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.
I have judiciously made use of readied actions in dungeons. Both as a player and as a DM. (hint, its great for using potions or buff spells for enemies that may be aware there are intruders) And no, if one party gets a surprise round, they get to go. Period. The other does not.
The party wouldn't be aware of the enemies either though. Actually, unless one of the PCs actually say they check before leaving, the only party that is even AWARE there is another group are those outside the rope trick. Even if you didn't allow the use of readied action (would you allow players or enemies to use total defense outside of combat? Why not?) At best its a "roll for initiative". At worst, its a surprise round one the first guy to crawl out of the hole.
If random mook joe and terry finds your rope dangling in mid air (you can't hide it) and runs back to find whoever is in charge of the area, you now get to fight the entire dungeon in one encounter. (assuming the entire thing isn't mindless enemies. Which It may be! in which case yes, you get to rest mostly whenever you want.) If -I- was running a danger dungeon and you tried this, you bet your butt if there were intelligent enemies on this floor, and I rolled for them finding you, you are in trouble. Matter of fact, at level 9, the dungeon may just have casters, casters capable of casting dispel magic. Which junts your entire party out on the ground with an entire mob of enemies ready to pound you.
But this is getting off the original intent of the thread.
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I have judiciously made use of readied actions in dungeons. Both as a player and as a DM. (hint, its great for using potions or buff spells for enemies that may be aware there are intruders) And no, if one party gets a surprise round, they get to go. Period. The other does not.
Okay, great. But I kind of assumed that you were using the actual rules of the game, as you made no mention of these houserules in your original post. Normally you can't ready actions outside of combat.
Ready Actions is part of the Special Initiative Actions paragraph of the Combat chapter.
You're not in combat and you don't have a place in the initiative order, so so you can't ready an action.
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The party wouldn't be aware of the enemies either though. Actually, unless one of the PCs actually say they check before leaving, the only party that is even AWARE there is another group are those outside the rope trick.
There is a literal invisible one-way window to the outside. You're being ridiculous. Obviously the party has a way better chance of spotting any potential enemies compared to the outsiders who have no way to gain information of the inside.
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If random mook joe and terry finds your rope dangling in mid air (you can't hide it) and runs back to find whoever is in charge of the area, you now get to fight the entire dungeon in one encounter.
It's not a bat signal. If it's behind total cover, like a door, it can't be seen. It can't be hidden by magical means but that won't result in everyone on golarion instantly knowing the location of it as part of some world-spanning Alarm spell. There are plenty of ways to avoid it being noticed, and to avoid it being noticed as anything else than a piece of rope.
And you've just explained why Rope Trick is good. If you weren't using it then you'd be asleep when the entire dungeon comes crashing into the room and slits the party's throats. You're not even arguing against Rope Trick, you've just brought up the exact kind of situation that would have been a party death without Rope Trick.
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But this is getting off the original intent of the thread.
Yes.
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So instead of following Wonderstell down his merry goose-chase throw numerous exceptionally questionable rulings (that are really just distractions), the kind that applied against a player would most likely cause a fair bit of table-flippage let's get to the meat of the issue (which he continues to fail to any degree of muster):
Rope trick is a good spell. But when used in a dangerous area, it can put you in a very dangerous position where your enemy has more intel on you than they, and you're actually oblivious to their presence. Furthermore, they'll have hours to prepare for when you come out.
Creatures that don't recognize the spell for what it is don't pose this threat, but there is absolutely a danger of this happening and your enemies preparing any number of nastinesses for you, including just dispelling the effect + surprise round. Or anything that prevents teleportation plus cloudkill, then lock all the doors.
Does this make rope trick a useless spell? Not at all. It's a very handy spell a pinch. Is it the "win button" Wonderstell conflates it to be? Not at all! Truthfully, there's no "win button" for resting safely at any level. Safer, absolutely. Perfectly safe? No. Perfectly anything is theorycraft.
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Hmm i would properbly go for a Stone Oracle with a Ring of Sustenance to get minimize resting time and food demand.
Earth Glide will come in handy in a big dungeon crawl and Crystal Sight will let you find traps and enemies easier when you suspect something is up.