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I recently made a character for my wife which wasn't intending to be as great a healer as it turned out she would be some day. Has anyone else come across a healer combination that exceeds any Cleric's wildest dreams?
Her healer:
Crossblooded sorcerer: orc/phoenix
Trait: Metamagic Master (Acid Splash)
1st Level Feat: Elemental Spell
Now she can Fire Splash for (1d3+1)/2 damage every round (1-2 points, not super, but decent for a continuous ability).
How did I make this an UBER HEALER? Well, originally she wanted to be a Mesmerist. So now, at 4th level, and every 3 levels after, she adds a Painful Stare 1d6+1.5 (basically) to this.
So at 4th level she'll be healing (1d3+1d6+2)/2. at 5-6th it will be (1d3+1d6+3)/2. And when she caps the "damage" from painful stare at 18th level mesmerist / 19th level, she'll be healing (1d3+6d6+10)/2 every round.
That's 8-24 healing a round. Basically forever. 6 player party with 200+ HP each? Sure, it will take 5-15 minutes, but ALL HEALED. And ready to continue, rather than "out of healing spells."
So how's this compare to other healers? I don't really know. But I liked the combination when I realized the potential. Basically at 4th level she has "fast healing 2-5" out of combat.
I'll add that this also allows a NO SR varying element spell touch attack (short range, granted) at 1d3+6d6+10, forever.
She can do Intense Stare to boost this another 3d6 by 18th level as well. So that's (1d3+9d6+10)/2 (10-34) healing, or the same not halved attack.
Thoughts?
If you play with Psionics, Elven Soulthief Vitalists with Blind-Fight + Intuitive Fighting and maxed out Wis score out-heals every other class in the game, hands-down. Soulthief Vitalists are the class that DM's tell ghost stories to their kids about. They heal for so much it makes DM's flip tables, put shotguns in their mouth, and drive them to drink--- heavily, like so drunk they can't even paint mini's with the 1st coat of primer. If you play this class, you can and will be held legally required to pay for your DM's therapist sessions for a minimum of 18 months after your campaign finishes.
Emotional or physical healing?
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If you play with Psionics, Elven Soulthief Vitalists with Blind-Fight + Intuitive Fighting and maxed out Wis score out-heals every other class in the game, hands-down. Soulthief Vitalists are the class that DM's tell ghost stories to their kids about. They heal for so much it makes DM's flip tables, put shotguns in their mouth, and drive them to drink--- heavily, like so drunk they can't even paint mini's with the 1st coat of primer. If you play this class, you can and will be held legally required to pay for your DM's therapist sessions for a minimum of 18 months after your campaign finishes.
Pure dice? I'm reading it and it is limited to uses per day, just like any other healer. Which means, at some point, during the "war that rages on" the Vitalist is done for the day. I understand it has healed "more than it's share" of damage that day. Way way more. And the ability to transfer it all over the place is pretty neat.
By contrast, the sorc/mentalist heals 144,000-489,600 a day (with no rest). Which is comparably past WAY WAY MORE straight to "All of Magnimar x1".
PS> But DAMN! Combine the two into one Collective! OUCH! Unstoppable force, as the tank takes all the healing... (ps. think I just found my 2nd level dip, because I only need 18th mesmerist)
Just a quick note: Sorcerers can add Sulfur/Brimstone or Saltpeter as alchemical material components for free (Eschew Materials: 1gp or less) to add another +1 to any acid/fire spell.
Phoenix sorcerer works really wonderful. If you want to use more than cantrips, Fireball is your go-to spell, as it can be enhanced by a lot of different abilities (power components, traits, feats, ...), especially the Magic Trick feat. Sculpt Flames lets you heal your entire party or burn all the enemies.
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That's kind of a neat twist... but doesn't work.
Fine points... which begs the question of whether the orc bloodline arcana affects it as well... hmmm... Except for the part where it says "equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal." Which, it would normally deal the damage, and additional damage...
Normally, the spell would deal 1d3+1+xd6+CL/2 damage. Your arcana converts this AFTER you roll NORMAL DAMAGE. Not before. I know the phrasing is parsed that way, but the reality is you can't convert damage before it's been done/rolled.
Mesmerist's painful stare:
"When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare"
Phoenix Bloodline Arcana:
"The spell deals no damage, and living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal."
They arcana says it deals no damage, the mesmerist ability requires damage.
As for the question of potent all day healing, it's hard to beat someone using the "greater skald's vigor" feat. A bachannal totemic skald can sing all day no problem, and when it comes on line at 10th level, it'd be fast healing 6 without any additional investment. With amplified rage, auspicious birth, vmc imperious sorcerer for heroic echo, and a ring of tactical precision, you'd get up to 15hp per turn for yourself and varying smaller amounts for others depending on their feat selection.
At earlier levels, your best bet is probably an involutionist spiritualist with the life spirit. You usually only need one level of this and one feat to effect the whole party with life link, so you can tack this onto most healing builds.
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Order of operations and lets break it up to be multiple characters for ease of wording.
1) Pheonix Sorcerer casts Acid Splash for fire damage, 1d3+1. Chooses to use bloodline so instead heals for 1d3+1/2.
2) Mesmerist Painful Stare looks for trigger of "target takes damage from something that hits".
3) Target didn't take damage. Mesmerist is still waiting.Now, Orc Bloodline increases the damage of the spell directly, it doesn't require another action or trigger. So that is what Phoenix is looking for in the "would normally deal" section. Same with Point Blank Shot, Medium(Archmage), Power Components, Wizard Evoker, etc.
My order of operations would be:
1) Phoenix Sorcerer casts Fire Splash for fire damage. 1d3+1.
2) Mesmerist adds precision to damage, as a free action (no time difference). xd6+x
3) Phoenix Sorcerer converts normal damage to healing.
Because every other time I cast the spell, it does 1d3+1+xd6+x = normal damage. Precision being the same type as the spell.
Normally, the spell would deal 1d3+1+xd6+CL/2 damage. Your arcana converts this AFTER you roll NORMAL DAMAGE. Not before. I know the phrasing is parsed that way, but the reality is you can't convert damage before it's been done/rolled.
I've been involved in a thread that goes over this particular issue heavily, specifically dealing with sneak attack damage but also talks about the orc bloodline. It effected an NPC (and a future character) that I run in one of my games. I've come down on the side that the spell deals NO DAMAGE, so sneak attack doesnt add to the damage because no damage is ever inflicted even though the sneak attack damage would be considered fire damage.
As a GM, I look at from a mechanical aspect and how that would be represented as seen through the lens of the world during game play. I see the Phoenix bloodline as altering the spell as it is cast, turning it from a damaging spell into one that heals. It never has the chance to deal damage, so things that trigger off damage being dealt never happen. Orc bloodline? Sure, I suppose it makes the spell inherently stronger but I'd still argue against it because that bloodline ONLY works on spells that deal damage and the Phoenix bloodline inherently changes that about the spell.
tl;dr: The spell never deals damage, so anything that triggers off damage are not applicable.
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Normally, the spell would deal 1d3+1+xd6+CL/2 damage. Your arcana converts this AFTER you roll NORMAL DAMAGE. Not before. I know the phrasing is parsed that way, but the reality is you can't convert damage before it's been done/rolled.I've been involved in a thread that goes over this particular issue heavily, specifically dealing with sneak attack damage but also talks about the orc bloodline. It effected an NPC (and a future character) that I run in one of my games. I've come down on the side that the spell deals NO DAMAGE, so sneak attack doesnt add to the damage because no damage is ever inflicted even though the sneak attack damage would be considered fire damage.
As a GM, I look at from a mechanical aspect and how that would be represented as seen through the lens of the world during game play. I see the Phoenix bloodline as altering the spell as it is cast, turning it from a damaging spell into one that heals. It never has the chance to deal damage, so things that trigger off damage being dealt never happen. Orc bloodline? Sure, I suppose it makes the spell inherently stronger but I'd still argue against it because that bloodline ONLY works on spells that deal damage and the Phoenix bloodline inherently changes that about the spell.
tl;dr: The spell never deals damage, so anything that triggers off damage are not applicable.
Arguably, the conversion is from "it's regular damage" so you have to roll "regular damage" (including triggers) first before the conversion.
To the point: that a Normal Damage Roll includes ALL DAMAGE TYPES which apply to the damage roll. Precision is a damage type, as is the base fire elemental damage. This doesn't mean it's not part of the normal damage roll.
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Arguably, the conversion is from "it's regular damage" so you have to roll "regular damage" (including triggers) first before the conversion.
To the point: that a Normal Damage Roll includes ALL DAMAGE TYPES which apply to the damage roll. Precision is a damage type, as is the base fire elemental damage. This doesn't mean it's not part of the normal damage roll.
The issue comes with precedent set down with cure spells in general. You can't critical hit with healing spells. You can't deal precision damage with healing spells. Reading the Phoenix bloodline the way you are doing creates instability in the rules. This would never fly at my table and I am an extremely lenient GM.
Play as you will but you are never going to get the consensus you want on this issue.
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Arguably, the conversion is from "it's regular damage" so you have to roll "regular damage" (including triggers) first before the conversion.
To the point: that a Normal Damage Roll includes ALL DAMAGE TYPES which apply to the damage roll. Precision is a damage type, as is the base fire elemental damage. This doesn't mean it's not part of the normal damage roll.
The issue comes with precedent set down with cure spells in general. You can't critical hit with healing spells. You can't deal precision damage with healing spells. Reading the Phoenix bloodline the way you are doing creates instability in the rules. This would never fly at my table and I am an extremely lenient GM.
Play as you will but you are never going to get the consensus you want on this issue.
You can critical hit with a acid/fire splash. So is the inconsistency mine? Do you need to do a ranged touch attack to deliver the spell (yes, as nothing in the arcana changes the range/target/etc)? If so, you can crit with it. And it is converted to healing AFTER rolling the normal crit damage. Which is why I'd also add the normal painful stare damage. To be consistent.
Taking the "normal damage" to just mean "well, just the base damage, with nothing added" seems like it is specifically mentioned in other feats (vital strike chain). Normal damage = damage with all types/abilities added, which you would do on any other attack.
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The inconsistency is yours and that is because you insist on treating the spell as a damage dealing spell when the bloodline ability explicitly states that the spell DEALS NO DAMAGE. It has become a spell that heals hit points, it does not deal hit point damage. Things that trigger off of dealing damage no longer apply.
I realize that at this point that you'll need time to reflect and analyze the problem on your own before you come to your own conclusion. And I encourage you to do so, even if you adamantly hold on to your position. Review this thread if it helps any Link to the thread that goes back and forth on the subject
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The inconsistency is yours and that is because you insist on treating the spell as a damage dealing spell when the bloodline ability explicitly states that the spell DEALS NO DAMAGE. It has become a spell that heals hit points, it does not deal hit point damage. Things that trigger off of dealing damage no longer apply.
I realize that at this point that you'll need time to reflect and analyze the problem on your own before you come to your own conclusion. And I encourage you to do so, even if you adamantly hold on to your position. Review this thread if it helps any Link to the thread that goes back and forth on the subject
It heals based on DAMAGE. So, at some point you have to roll DAMAGE. It's not inconsistent. It's REQUIRED.
I understand the argument you're making. That painful stare an ability that is triggered on DAMAGE. I get that. But do you get that in order to convert ANYTHING, this arcana requires a DAMAGE ROLL first? (not last)
If you play with Psionics, Elven Soulthief Vitalists with Blind-Fight + Intuitive Fighting and maxed out Wis score out-heals every other class in the game, hands-down. Soulthief Vitalists are the class that DM's tell ghost stories to their kids about. They heal for so much it makes DM's flip tables, put shotguns in their mouth, and drive them to drink--- heavily, like so drunk they can't even paint mini's with the 1st coat of primer. If you play this class, you can and will be held legally required to pay for your DM's therapist sessions for a minimum of 18 months after your campaign finishes.Pure dice? I'm reading it and it is limited to uses per day, just like any other healer. Which means, at some point, during the "war that rages on" the Vitalist is done for the day. I understand it has healed "more than it's share" of damage that day. Way way more. And the ability to transfer it all over the place is pretty neat.
By contrast, the sorc/mentalist heals 144,000-489,600 a day (with no rest). Which is comparably past WAY WAY MORE straight to "All of Magnimar x1".
PS> But DAMN! Combine the two into one Collective! OUCH! Unstoppable force, as the tank takes all the healing... (ps. think I just found my 2nd level dip, because I only need 18th mesmerist)
Well..
Lvl 20 Soulthief Vitalist using Steal Life every 10 minutes for 16 hours:
96 Dead enemies (Instant Death)
134,400 healing
Lvl 20 Soulthief Vitalist using Master Soulthief (Capstone) once every 10 minutes for 16 hours:
40,320 damage
40,320 healing
That's not including Transfer Wounds, Hostile Empathic Transfer, Manifesting Powers, feats, gear, or any other class abilites. That's just using the lvl 14 ability and the lvl 20 capstone every 10 minutes.
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Well..Lvl 20 Soulthief Vitalist using Steal Life every 10 minutes for 16 hours:
96 Dead enemies (Instant Death)
134,400 healing
"healing any number of the members of his collective for a combined total 5 hit points per hit die"
96 * 5 * < 20 HD = 9600 HP healing. I doubt 20+ HD creatures are going to have less than 140 HP.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I understand the argument you're making. That painful stare an ability that is triggered on DAMAGE. I get that. But do you get that in order to convert ANYTHING, this arcana requires a DAMAGE ROLL first? (not last)
The spell already has a way of determining the damage the spell would normally deal within its spell description. Since the spell never actually deals any damage, other abilities that trigger off of the spell dealing damage never have a chance to trigger, and never add to the damage total. You are limited to the damage that the spell delivers all on its own (or perhaps modified by another bloodline ability).
I understand where you are coming from. As a player, and someone who discovered this particular interaction very early on, I was disappointed that it did not work. Not working, if we hold all the other rules consistent with how healing spells work in general and the bloodline ability making no specific example over allowing for precision damage to add to the healing.
Again, I urge you to read the thread. Disappointment sucks, I know.
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I understand the argument you're making. That painful stare an ability that is triggered on DAMAGE. I get that. But do you get that in order to convert ANYTHING, this arcana requires a DAMAGE ROLL first? (not last)The spell already has a way of determining the damage the spell would normally deal within its spell description. Since the spell never actually deals any damage, other abilities that trigger off of the spell dealing damage never have a chance to trigger, and never add to the damage total. You are limited to the damage that the spell delivers all on its own (or perhaps modified by another bloodline ability).
I understand where you are coming from. As a player, and someone who discovered this particular interaction very early on, I was disappointed that it did not work. Not working, if we hold all the other rules consistent with how healing spells work in general and the bloodline ability making no specific example over allowing for precision damage to add to the healing.
Again, I urge you to read the thread. Disappointment sucks, I know.
The crux of it is this " half the fire damage the spell would normally deal." and how it is read. If it is read "half the fire damage the spell (alone) would normally deal", then yeh, you get no painful stare. If it is read "half the fire damage the spell would normally deal (as an attack)", then I'd be right. Since you can't do fire damage with healing, you have to get the "fire damage roll" from somewhere.
This is where we're disagreeing. I understand that. What is the fire damage roll? You could further argue that it says "the spell" - and thus no other abilities would add to it. Which is a legit stance too. I sincerely think it could be run either way, because like most things, the damage has to be ROLLED at some point. What DAMAGE is converted to healing? Whatever it is, it is definitely done AFTER rolling it. Not before. You can call it healing before you roll it. But the damage you roll is still spell damage. the healing is HALF the DAMAGE.
So... if I may. This is what you're doing.
1. Swift action to apply hypnotic stare, which puts one or more debuffs on a single target.
2. Full round action to cast modified acid splash:
- a) Acid splash. Here, you decide whether to use a power component (note: to avoid confusion, stick with the Acid Flask as it's specific to acid splash and therefore doesn't care about its elemental.)
- b) Apply your metamagic to change the spell to fire. This also shifts the spell to a full-round action, though Magical Lineage lets it cast as a 0th level spell, taking up no slots.
- c) Apply arcana (see below).
- d) Complete the casting by executing a ranged touch.
With regard to the arcana, your GM can decide which camp they belong to:
- You can choose to apply orc arcana first, lock in the damage, THEN shift to healing;
- You can't, because orc arcana cares about whether the spell deals damage, and phoenix arcana determines whether the spell does.
The latter camp is more consistent with other mechanics; for example, orc arcana would apply when using Cure spells to deal damage to creatures with negative affinity (eg, undead), but not when using the same spells to heal. This is true even within the same casting (mass cure, with the spell healing some and dealing to some; only those sustaining damage will sustain more from orc arcana.
Whichever is the case, however...
2. AFTER THE SPELL HITS, you attempt a free action to apply painful stare.
- a) However, it's not a damaging spell; it's a healing spell. As such, painful stare cannot proc.
That's why the combo fails.
DeathlessOne isn't honest when he claims that the thread (he is talking about) came to that conclusion. It didn't. I was part of that thread.
However, while I think additional damage on the spell (including sneak attack damage dice) works fine with the Phoenix bloodline arcana, I do not think that abilities that trigger on taking damage work.
For continuous healing, it's better to use Alchemist's Fire as a material component.
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So... if I may. This is what you're doing.
1. Swift action to apply hypnotic stare, which puts one or more debuffs on a single target.
2. Full round action to cast modified acid splash:
- a) Acid splash. Here, you decide whether to use a power component (note: to avoid confusion, stick with the Acid Flask as it's specific to acid splash and therefore doesn't care about its elemental.)
- b) Apply your metamagic to change the spell to fire. This also shifts the spell to a full-round action, though Magical Lineage lets it cast as a 0th level spell, taking up no slots.
- c) Apply arcana (see below).
- d) Complete the casting by executing a ranged touch.With regard to the arcana, your GM can decide which camp they belong to:
- You can choose to apply orc arcana first, lock in the damage, THEN shift to healing;
- You can't, because orc arcana cares about whether the spell deals damage, and phoenix arcana determines whether the spell does.The latter camp is more consistent with other mechanics; for example, orc arcana would apply when using Cure spells to deal damage to creatures with negative affinity (eg, undead), but not when using the same spells to heal. This is true even within the same casting (mass cure, with the spell healing some and dealing to some; only those sustaining damage will sustain more from orc arcana.
Whichever is the case, however...
2. AFTER THE SPELL HITS, you attempt a free action to apply painful stare.
- a) However, it's not a damaging spell; it's a healing spell. As such, painful stare cannot proc.That's why the combo fails.
Sort of.
At 2d, you need to determine how much is healed, so you make a DAMAGE roll. How much damage does the spell do? 1d3+1 normally, and with painful stare, it would normally do 1d3+1+xd6+x. Then you convert that by dividing the normal damage the spell does to healing.
You can't convert "nothing" before you roll it. You have to roll damage first. This is just a logical presumption on my part.
I understand that you are wanting to analyze it at every point along it's course. I don't agree with this because you really need to start at the back end: the damage being converted. Then you convert that to healing.
Yes, I know it is worded "backwards" to this. But the order of operations is clear. You can't convert "nothing to healing" and then try to figure out what "nothing really is AS HEALING."
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This is where we're disagreeing. I understand that. What is the fire damage roll? You could further argue that it says "the spell" - and thus no other abilities would add to it. Which is a legit stance too. I sincerely think it could be run either way, because like most things, the damage has to be ROLLED at some point. What DAMAGE is converted to healing?
Shift gears and look at it from this perspective: What is precision damage? For Sneak attack, it is when "... a rogue ... can strike a vital spot for extra damage." For Mesmerists, it is explicitly a way to deal EXTRA damage once the target has already taken damage.
It comes down to this: Did you deal damage?
Phoenix bloodline: No, the spell "deals no damage"
Sneak attack: No damage? I can't work
Painful Stare: No damage? I can't be activated.
How do I determine the damage for the spell so I can figure out how much the spell heals?
Phoenix bloodline: "When casting any spell that deals fire damage, you can instead heal your targets. The spell deals no damage, and living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal."
Sneak attack: No damage? I can't work. Sneak attack isn't part of the spell, it is an accessory
Painful Stare: No damage? I can't be activated. Painful Stare isn't part of the spell, it is an accessory.
Arguments aside for the orc bloodline, we can see that when determining the damage the spell would normally deal, we can't factor into it accessory abilities that are not part of the spell being cast.
DeathlessOne isn't honest when he claims that the thread (he is talking about) came to that conclusion. It didn't. I was part of that thread.
Kindly retract that statement. I never said we came to any sort of conclusion. I merely stated I was involved in it.
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"Bloodline Arcana: When casting any spell that deals fire damage, you can instead heal your targets."
Completely immaterial to the argument. A description of what it does means nothing mechanically, except what the end results are.
"The spell deals no damage,"
OK. So we know the end result is the spell hurts nobody. This is not to say there is no damage roll involved.
" and living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points"
OK. So we know the end result is that it actually gives HP back (to living creatures).
"equal to half the fire damage"
OK. So we have to determine / roll fire damage. How much?
"the spell would normally deal."
Oh, so roll normal damage. -now, arguably, the damage might not be enhanced. But why wouldn't it be normally? If a normal blast from the spell does 1d3+6d6+10, why wouldn't it heal for half that? That's the normal damage (arguably the spell only does 1d3+1, and the other is additional precision damage, which is a type, and a type is part of the original damage roll). Precision damage the spell does, is still fire damage the spell does (think we all agree on that).
There's no point in arguing any further: there will never be any conclusion.
Just play the game as you see fit and enjoy.
And if there is one thing, that nobody argues about: healing during combat is underpowered. So there's no harm in empowering it.
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Oh, so roll normal damage. -now, arguably, the damage might not be enhanced. But why wouldn't it be normally? If a normal blast from the spell does 1d3+6d6+10, why wouldn't it heal for half that? That's the normal damage (arguably the spell only does 1d3+1, and the other is additional precision damage, which is a type, and a type is part of the original damage roll). Precision damage the spell does, is still fire damage the spell does (think we all agree on that).
No one is arguing that precision damage caused by a fire spell is fire damage. The issue is that spells that deal NO DAMAGE cannot deal precision damage, specifically because there is no actual damage being dealt (Arcane Trickester surprise spell ability non-withstanding). It might happen instantaneously as far as settling the effects of the spell NORMALLY, but it is still a box that has to be checked before the precision damage can occur.
Theaitetos is correct that there is no point in arguing any further. I've already said all that I needed to on the matter.
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There's no point in arguing any further: there will never be any conclusion.
Just play the game as you see fit and enjoy.
And if there is one thing, that nobody argues about: healing during combat is underpowered. So there's no harm in empowering it.
Yeh, it really comes down to the "half the fire damage the spell would normally deal" part. Does one roll normal damage(1d3+1+xd6+x) and halve it? Does one roll JUST the spell damage (1d3+1) and halve it? Does one roll just the base damage of the spell (1d3) with no modifiers and halve that? GM mileage may vary, obviously. My interpretation would be "normally deal" means roll normal damage, then convert.
I appreciate the civil discourse, and understand where you are coming from. I do. I just disagree that "normal damage" wouldn't include "normal modifiers to damage". That's all. I can certainly see where one might interpret it start to back, like you do.
But I also like the idea of rolling a nat 20 on a fire splash in someone's face and healing them critically for 2d3+2+xd6+x... because on a nat 20 ranged attack that confirms, my normal damage is doubled.
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Yeh, it really comes down to the "half the fire damage the spell would normally deal" part. Does one roll normal damage(1d3+1+xd6+x) and halve it? Does one roll JUST the spell damage (1d3+1) and halve it? Does one roll just the base damage of the spell (1d3) with no modifiers and halve that? GM mileage may vary, obviously. My interpretation would be "normally deal" means roll normal damage, then convert.
Bolded for your benefit. You'll need to keep your attention focused on the spell description itself, not any other added effects unless they explicit alter the way the spell functions. Sneak attack and Painful Stare do not alter the way the spell functions. They are accessory abilities that only work if the spell deals actual hit point damage.
As I said before, I know it sucks. It is disappointing. The damage healing I could have done would have been legendary.
Well..Lvl 20 Soulthief Vitalist using Steal Life every 10 minutes for 16 hours:
96 Dead enemies (Instant Death)
134,400 healing13,440"healing any number of the members of his collective for a combined total 5 hit points per hit die"
96 * 5 * < 20 HD = 9600 HP healing. I doubt 20+ HD creatures are going to have less than 140 HP.
Fixed. I can math many numbers, I swear. Also, this is 40hp better than Power Word Kill, and EVERY Monster you will face will have less than 140 HP while you're killing them. It's not 140 Max HP, it's 140 HP. Drop them to 140, and Whap, dead.
Also, the Soulthief can only run out of Power Points and Xfer Wounds per day, there's no limit for Steal Health, Steal Life, Soulthief Capstone, or pretty much anything else.
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You'll need to keep your attention focused on the spell description itself, not any other added effects unless they explicit alter the way the spell functions. Sneak attack and Painful Stare do not alter the way the spell functions. They are accessory abilities that only work if the spell deals actual hit point damage.
That's a valid point. They do modify the normal fire damage of a spell, however. Which is my counterpoint. Normal fire damage is what is converted to healing HP.
Fore instance, if I did a Fire Splash (elemental spell) for half fire half acid, it would not convert the acid damage. The acid damage would still happen, even under the arcana. Right? Or is all alternate damage / riders just waived and gotten rid of under the arcana???
So, hold on. A normal blast from the spell does not deal 1d3 + 6d6 + 10.
Granting that the orc arcana can be applied before the phoenix, a normal blast from the spell deals 1d3+1.
When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare, the mesmerist can cause the target to take an amount of additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist’s class level (minimum 1). The mesmerist can use this ability as a free action, and can use it even if it isn’t his turn. If the mesmerist uses this ability to increase his own damage, the additional damage increases by 1d6 points for every 3 class levels the mesmerist possesses. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. A mesmerist can trigger this ability only once per round, but a single creature can take damage from multiple mesmerists’ painful stares in a round.
So let's suppose we simply have the Acid Splash deal damage.
1a) You do acid splash, make your ranged touch, and hit.
1b) This triggers the first line of painful stare, granting you additional precision damage.
1c) As such, you deal 1d3+1 acid damage (2d3+2 on a crit) - and because you get to add hypnotic stare, orc arcana will apply to its dice: 6d6+15 precision acid damage.
Now you're trying to style on an acid-resistant foe.
2a) You do acid splash, make your ranged touch attack, and hit. However, acid resistance negates all the damage.
2b) You didn't deal damage, so the first line of painful stare doesn't trigger.
But if the Acid Splash isn't dealing damage at all:
3a) You do fire-subbed healing acid splash, make your ranged touch, and auto-hit.
3b) Since you aren't making an attack that deals damage, the first line of painful stare doesn't trigger.
Basically, if the attack fails to deal damage - either because it doesn't hit hard enough or isn't a damaging attack - you don't meet the condition for taking the Free Action.
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That's a valid point. They do modify the normal fire damage of a spell, however. Which is my counterpoint. Normal fire damage is what is converted to healing HP.
Fore instance, if I did a Fire Splash (elemental spell) for half fire half acid, it would not convert the acid damage. The acid damage would still happen, even under the arcana. Right? Or is all alternate damage / riders just waived and gotten rid of under the arcana???
The problem is that you've skipped over the line of the Phoenix bloodline arcana. It doesn't matter what elements are being used in the spell. The spell deals NO DAMAGE. You are simply crippling your ability to heal if you reduce the amount of fire damage the spell can normally do.
Using Elemental Spell metamagic is only useful if you are converting a non-fire spell to a fire spell.
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That's a valid point. They do modify the normal fire damage of a spell, however. Which is my counterpoint. Normal fire damage is what is converted to healing HP.
Fore instance, if I did a Fire Splash (elemental spell) for half fire half acid, it would not convert the acid damage. The acid damage would still happen, even under the arcana. Right? Or is all alternate damage / riders just waived and gotten rid of under the arcana???
The problem is that you've skipped over the line of the Phoenix bloodline arcana. It doesn't matter what elements are being used in the spell. The spell deals NO DAMAGE. You are simply crippling your ability to heal if you reduce the amount of fire damage the spell can normally do.
Using Elemental Spell metamagic is only useful if you are converting a non-fire spell to a fire spell.
Yeh, that's an interesting side note, for sure! So what about riders that stun, paralyze, or otherwise "attack" someone but do no DAMAGE? Ponderous inquiries... Like a toppling fire spell that heals?
(ps. I'm glad we can both be civil discussing something which we disagree on. Thanks! Deals no DAMAGE, but requires a DAMAGE ROLL... )
Another interesting side note: The Elemental Spell doesn't change the descriptor of the spell... just the damage.
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Yeh, that's an interesting side note, for sure! So what about riders that stun, paralyze, or otherwise "attack" someone but do no DAMAGE? Ponderous inquiries... Like a toppling fire spell that heals?
One of the requirements of Toppling Spell is the target taking damage. That part wouldn't work. The saving throw or movement aspect? That would still function. Rider effects seem to be perfectly fine by the looks of it. Only the damage aspect that is being removed.
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Yeh, that's an interesting side note, for sure! So what about riders that stun, paralyze, or otherwise "attack" someone but do no DAMAGE? Ponderous inquiries... Like a toppling fire spell that heals?One of the requirements of Toppling Spell is the target taking damage. That part wouldn't work. The saving throw or movement aspect? That would still function. Rider effects seem to be perfectly fine by the looks of it. Only the damage aspect that is being removed.
Yeh. I was just thinking of a quick example of a rider. Obviously it wouldn't be worth bringing the cantrip up to spell slot level 1.
Regardless, I think we can both agree that the original idea gives essentially "out of combat fast healing 1.66". So That's kind of cool. And being able to unleash an elemental no SR touch spell at 1d3+9d6+10 forever definitely ups a caster's game a little (granted, it's a full round attack). I think I'll keep with it regardless of how my GM rules on the side of "riders" on the normal damage roll. There aren't a lot of other spells out there until like 7th level that grant the no SR. So it is pretty powerful for damaging things with SR. Unless, of course, the GM says "you have to get through DR/Hardness before you deal precision damage" which makes absolutely no sense... well, for one because DR wouldn't apply.
Suffice to say my "painful stare" free action rider occurs concurrent with the damage roll, and as precision damage, is not a separate source of damage from the spell. That then gets converted just like the 1d3+1 damage, and the spell ends up doing no damage, healing the target instead, for half the normal damage (which includes precision and critical damage, if the monster isn't immune - a condition making those damage types not apply in a normal damage roll).
Turns in a day: 14400. Fast heal 1.33 = still healing 19152 damage a day. (1.33 = 1,2 = 1hp, 3 = 2 hp).
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Step away for an hour or two and look what happens...
(ps. I'm glad we can both be civil discussing something which we disagree on. Thanks! Deals no DAMAGE, but requires a DAMAGE ROLL... )There, that is the crux of the problem.
Pheonix Bloodline gives you a 'damage roll' in the "normally deal" section.
Painful Stare requires 'damage', not a damage roll.
Arguable semantics. Damage is determined with a Damage roll... Painful stare adds to the damage roll... if there is normal damage, and that gets converted, it's after painful stare, not before. You can claim a semantic distinction between damage and damage roll... but the reality is, the spell does "half the normal (fire) damage the spell would normally deal", which is then converted (because you can't convert before you know what this is).
Painful stare is not a separate damage source. It is part of the damage roll which is "normal (fire) damage being converted".
Yes. This is the crux of the problem. The chicken or the egg? When you roll the spell's normal damage (including precision and critical damage), do you include painful stare damage (if you had a rogue, who was doing precision damage, you'd add their precise strike if within 30 feet).
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Painful stare is not a separate damage source. It is part of the damage roll which is "normal (fire) damage being converted".
Technically, it is a separate source of damage.
When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare, the mesmerist can cause the target to take an amount of additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist’s class level (minimum 1).
It is an ability that still requires actual damage to be dealt, but it is ADDED to the damage dealt, and is treated as part of the original damage roll. So, for the Phoenix bloodline issue, it wouldn't work but for any other purposes, it is part of the same damage total.
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Painful stare is not a separate damage source. It is part of the damage roll which is "normal (fire) damage being converted".Technically, it is a separate source of damage.
When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare, the mesmerist can cause the target to take an amount of additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist’s class level (minimum 1).It is an ability that still requires actual damage to be dealt, but it is ADDED to the damage dealt, and is treated as part of the original damage roll. So, for the Phoenix bloodline issue, it wouldn't work but for any other purposes, it is part of the same damage total.
No. It is not a separate source of damage. DR doesn't apply separately. It's added to damage prior to DR. Because it is the whole ATTACK you apply DR to (if it weren't an elemental attack, of course). It's a separate TYPE. The source is the attack that spurred it. Different types may contribute to the same SOURCE of damage (an attack).
And you're correct in the "additional damage" part. Which is why when I say "you have to determine damage" it is INCLUDED. Because it is part of the source of fire damage (the attacking spell). Before you can convert it to HEALING.
Let's look at this: A Rogue/Sorcerer/Mesmerist: Sneak attacks someone with a Flame Splash.
1d6 sneak attack applies to the ATTACK within 30'.
1d3+1 fire damage spell.
1d6+1 precision from Mesmerist painful stare.
Critical rolled. Another 1d3+1 fire.
Now, SA damage is precision of the same type as the triggering attack: Fire.
Painful stare is precision of the same type as the triggering attack: fire.
So the normal fire attack damage from this attack is: 2d3+2+2d6+1.
Now, half that is converted to healing with the phoenix arcana.
Are we going to claim that "consistently" one precision damage doesn't apply but the other does? (providing, of course, that we're healing our opponents)
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No. It is not a separate source of damage. DR doesn't apply separately. It's added to damage prior to DR. Because it is the whole ATTACK you apply DR to. It's a separate TYPE. The source is the attack that spurred it. Different types may contribute to the same SOURCE of damage (an attack).
This part is actually semantics at work. A source of damage can be from different abilities working together. The only thing that matters for DR, or Energy resistance for that matter, is the total damage coming from a single attack (or elemental effect).
And you're correct in the "additional damage" part. Which is why when I say "you have to determine damage" it is INCLUDED. Because it is part of the source of fire damage (the attacking spell). Before you can convert it to HEALING.
I still disagree with you on that. Painful Stare specifically calls out its damage as precision damage, and that can only occur when actual damage occurs. It cannot be applied to a spell used with the Phoenix bloodline arcana.
If you still believe otherwise at this point, we'll just have to leave it at that. I won't budge on the matter, even if I was the one playing the character. If your GM allows it, that's cool. It won't fly at my table.
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If you still believe otherwise at this point, we'll just have to leave it at that. I won't budge on the matter, even if I was the one playing the character. If your GM allows it, that's cool. It won't fly at my table.
Yeh, we disagree. I think you should be able to target a person's "hurty bits" with heal spells just like you could with harm spells. It's magic, after all! I don't know if my GM will allow it. I'm actually fine with it either way, so long as we know before she uses it in game. I can understand your reasoning, as I've said. I just don't agree that you can "restrict the damage to the least possible" and call that "normal damage." Normal damage is the damage you'd do with it under any other circumstances... ie. painful stare/ sneak attack/ critical hits can apply.
So let's talk about a dip in rogue + accomplished sneak attacker for 2d6 extra on the 1d3+1 heal? Would you consider that #1 an attack that would break invisibility (because to get sneak attack on my friends, them not seeing me is the best way)? Or does it count as a "heal spell" and thus not break invisibility even though it required a ranged touch attack?
How does the whole "foe" and "opponent" thing work in combat trying to heal your allies?
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Yeh, we disagree. I think you should be able to target a person's "hurty bits" with heal spells just like you could with harm spells. It's magic, after all! I don't know if my GM will allow it. I'm actually fine with it either way, so long as we know before she uses it in game. I can understand your reasoning, as I've said. I just don't agree that you can "restrict the damage to the least possible" and call that "normal damage." Normal damage is the damage you'd do with it under any other circumstances... ie. painful stare/ sneak attack/ critical hits can apply.
I am only replying to correct a possible misunderstanding of my comment by you, or an misrepresentation of my statement. I take the most 'restrictive' reading of an ability when any looser reading of the ability begins to break down existing rule interactions in other areas.
Its not a matter of 'the least possible', it is a matter of the 'normal damage of the spell'. Painful Glare and Sneak Attack do not modify the actual spell, they are separate abilities that activate under specific circumstances. They are not 'normal' to the function of the spell.
So let's talk about a dip in rogue + accomplished sneak attacker...
I will pass on discussing this, as I would not permit sneak attack to work with the Phoenix bloodline ability. As I stated, taking a less restrictive reading of the ability causes rules to break down elsewhere. Your question is proof of that.
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I am only replying to correct a possible misunderstanding of my comment by you, or an misrepresentation of my statement. I take the most 'restrictive' reading of an ability when any looser reading of the ability begins to break down existing rule interactions in other areas.
Its not a matter of 'the least possible', it is a matter of the 'normal damage of the spell'. Painful Glare and Sneak Attack do not modify the actual spell, they are separate abilities that activate under specific circumstances. They are not 'normal' to the function of the spell.
So let's talk about a dip in rogue + accomplished sneak attacker...I will pass on discussing this, as I would not permit sneak attack to work with the Phoenix bloodline ability. As I stated, taking a less restrictive reading of the ability causes rules to break down elsewhere. Your question is proof of that.
Maybe I should approach it from the other side: the mesmerist. Because I have no issue with anything I've argued regarding what a normal damage roll is. It "includes all normal modifiers to damage" (and that's a quote straight from somewhere in a book).
The mesmerist ability, though does say "When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare"...
#1 We both agree that even though a spell does no damage, it can be an attack (I presume you have no problem with this). So the "when an attack" part is not a problem.
#2 "that deals damage" - this is where I run into a problem with my argument. The spell is not going to do any damage, ever. Even riders don't do damage (as we've discussed). It will do healing. It converts its normal damage to healing. Now, as part of the spell's normal damage, it could add painful stare. Which is where the whole "chicken and egg" problem starts. GM ruling. You say no. That's fine. I point out other precision damage that would be part of the normal damage roll, and think that makes a case for this being able to be applied. However, I will grant that "sneak attack" doesn't say "that deals damage" in it's description anywhere. Nor does it say it's any sort of an action taken after a condition is met. It's a precondition precision damage adder. So ok, I see your point, like I said. The other part of this is: does the damage need to overcome resistances? or does it just need to "do damage" not "succeed in damaging the target"?
#3 "hits the target of a mesmerist's hypnotic stare" : "A mesmerist can focus his stare on one creature within 30 feet"
So SA/crit would work to up the damage of the spell (conditions met), but the painful stare wouldn't necessarily. Guess I can see that. Pin down your allies to heal them and extra 2d6/2! lolz.
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#1 We both agree that even though a spell does no damage, it can be an attack (I presume you have no problem with this). So the "when an attack" part is not a problem.
Only in the most basic sense do we agree on this. In the instance of the Phoenix bloodline, it is a hard no from me. Not only does the spell deal no damage, it HEALS living targets. Attacks deal damage. This spell does not.
#2 "that deals damage" - this is where I run into a problem with my argument. The spell is not going to do any damage, ever...
This is where the issue starts and ends. Abilities that trigger off damage can NEVER occur with the spell, because they happen AFTER damage is dealt in the order of operations, even if such things happen so close together in time that they are effectively instantaneous. The only damage you can look at to determine the healing is contained within the spell description itself.
1) Cast the spell
2) Hit/effect the target (attack roll or saving throw/spell resistance)
3) Resolve the effect of the spell (damage)
4) Activate any effects that trigger off of the spell (Painful Stare)
5) Total damage
6) Apply target's resistances/damage reduction
7) Action resolved: Total damage dealt to creature
Now, when we use Phoenix Bloodline
1) Cast the spell
2) Hit/effect the target
3) Resolve the effects of the spell (damage: ERROR)
3.1) Spell deals no damage. Roll spell damage, reduce by half. Result: total healing
4) Activate any effects that trigger off of the spell (Painful Stare: ERROR)
4.1) Painful Stare requires damage to be dealt. No damage was dealt
5) Total damage ERROR
5.1) No damage was dealt
6) Apply target's resistances/damage reduction ERROR
6.1) No damage was dealt
7) Action resolved: Total healing applied to target
That is as clear as I can be on the matter.
The other part of this is: does the damage need to overcome resistances? or does it just need to "do damage" not "succeed in damaging the target"?
Damage has not been dealt and has not been subject to any sort of damage reduction or resistance. That happens after the damage has been totaled and APPLIED to the creature. Since the spell never does any damage, the DR or resistance of said creature never comes into play.
#3 "hits the target of a mesmerist's hypnotic stare" : "A mesmerist can focus his stare on one creature within 30 feet"
So SA/crit would work to up the damage of the spell (conditions met), but the painful stare wouldn't necessarily. Guess I can see that. Pin down your allies to heal them and extra 2d6/2! lolz.
I don't believe I am following you here. You can only critical when you deal damage. Healing never deals damage. You cannot critical on a healing spell.