Taking it to 11 (Building well-rounded high-level characters from scratch)

[vagrant-poet]

I've been thinking about this lately, and seen some related discussions especially with respect to Fist of the Ruby Phoenix.

For people who have played through or GMed games with characters 11th-15th level, what are some things that posed issues for your characters that they could have avoided with the right solutions from items/feats/spells?

What problems largely need to be solved by brining the right tool, as opposed to solving the issue in the encounter itself?

I'm thinking of something like a rough checklist, both for each character and at a party level, e.g. generally when starting a new group at low levels we might talk about skill coverage and having a person who is good at some kind of healing out of combat (as a party-type requirement), while each individual character ought to have actions they might meaningfully want to take in a combat encounter (most classes do this by default at lower levels, but this is just an example of an individual-type requirement).

Example:
[] A tool for dealing with enemies that are over 60ft way and likely to stay at distance, possibly flying.

Then maybe the monk takes flying kick, or the fighter makes sure they have a decent bow instead of just a sword and shield, etc, etc.

[] A tool for dealing silver damage.

You want to be able to bypass resistances or trigger weaknesses when this comes up, etc.

I'd love to hear from people's experiences about these kind of issues, so that we/I can create and share an easy to understand check-list and encourage and support players who might want to try out high level PF2 but be wary because the troubles other d20 games have had at these levels.

P.S. if this already exists, in form of a discussion during the playtests, or just that I missed, please let me know!

[Kyrone]

I would say... be aware of the Aid Action + Reaction, at lvl 10+ is pretty easy to get a critical hit on the check and with a Master skill check that is a +3 circumstance bonus on the check. A simple flatfooted + that is +5 to an attack roll and that is huge, specially if you are fighting higher lvl enemies than you.

[andreww]

Things which crop up more as levels which increase:

1. Dealing with invisible enemies, especially those with level 4 invisibility. Level 5 invisibility lasts 8 hours and so makes a good wand.

2. Dealing with flying enemies, have a means to fly or engage at range/

3. Have longer ranged options, especially for cantrips. If your cantrips are all 30' try to find a longer one.

4. Dealing with environmental factors, climbing, swimming, heat and cold. Endure Elements lasts 24 hours and so makes a good choice for a wand.

5. Ways to trigger weaknesses or overcome resistances. Backup weapons with ghost touch will help with incorporeal enemies.

6. Have a means to deal with regeneration, different elemental damage types are needed.

7. Have access to restoration. It can only be used on you once per day so a wand is an effective way of dealing with it. Level 4 restoration covers most things, doomed is very uncommon.

8. Have a way to get rid of other conditions, counteract checks make minimum level scrolls become useless very quickly.

If you are part of an AP group then each player does not need to cover every base but you probably want them covered by the group. If you are playing PFS scenarios it is more tricky as you have no way of knowing who you will be sitting down with.

[pauljathome]

To add to Andrew's list

9) Your spellcasters should try to cover every kind of save
10) Having somebody who can identify monsters and get some information can be worth a LOT. Note that in PFS there is absolutely HUGE table variation in what knowledge a GM gives you more or less for free and with successful checks. For some GMs knowledge skills are worthless, for some they're life saves
11) Your spellcasters need to have spells that contribute when the opponent saves. Against some of the higher level boss monsters the boss WILL save almost all the time. hint - Synesthesia absolutely rocks
12) Specialize in the skills you care about. One master skill tends to be worth 2 or 3 expert skills.
13) Make sure that the group has a means of effective and quick out of combat healing.
14) Have back up scrolls, wands etc for when the adventure does NOT let you take a rest. You need SOME ability to keep going when you're down a lot of resources (generally spells)

[Unicore]

I really hope the players guide introduces new equipment kits for 10th level players that help tackle the option paralysis many players might encounter with purchasing items at 10th level, but also help them avoid the pitfalls of over focusing on one item with multiple runes and not cover some of their more obvious bases.

I am sure we will get special level 10 iconics to also help with that too, and the nice thing about starting at level 10 is that players can’t start with a +2 potency rune as their highest level item and then 2 property runes as their next two highest level items, but some GMs will lump sum the PC and say nothing higher level than you are, and many players will dig themselves a hole before they start.

[vagrant-poet]

Unicore wrote:

I really hope the players guide introduces new equipment kits for 10th level players that help tackle the option paralysis many players might encounter with purchasing items at 10th level, but also help them avoid the pitfalls of over focusing on one item with multiple runes and not cover some of their more obvious bases.

I am sure we will get special level 10 iconics to also help with that too, and the nice thing about starting at level 10 is that players can’t start with a +2 potency rune as their highest level item and then 2 property runes as their next two highest level items, but some GMs will lump sum the PC and say nothing higher level than you are, and many players will dig themselves a hole before they start.

I also think buying equipment is what will trip up many players not familiar with higher levels.

Pre-gens will also be good, especially if we get more than 4-6. Even just to let players see how those characters were built to set expectations.

[vagrant-poet]

These are all great suggestions so far, thank you!

[TwilightKnight]

Unicore wrote:

help them avoid the pitfalls of over focusing

I take on this responsibility in my campaigns. I make it a point to explain to the players at the outset that they are better off having a wider, pragmatic skill set, then a narrowly focused one with maximized modifiers. I have full control of the environment and they should not feel the need to push the power curve since I can dial it down to meet their characters. If they hyper-optimize, it just means I have to raise the challenges in response. Its just a mindset.

[TwilightKnight]

I think it goes without saying you should have a way to resolve death. High-level play has opportunities for save or die situations so there are times when the dying rules won't work for you. Nothing shuts a game down quicker than dead PCs.

[pauljathome]

TwilightKnight wrote:

Unicore wrote:

help them avoid the pitfalls of over focusing

I take on this responsibility in my campaigns. I make it a point to explain to the players at the outset that they are better off having a wider, pragmatic skill set, then a narrowly focused one with maximized modifiers. I have full control of the environment and they should not feel the need to push the power curve since I can dial it down to meet their characters. If they hyper-optimize, it just means I have to raise the challenges in response. Its just a mindset.

This is a published Paizo adventure. Experience has shown that these have a tendency to be written to make it hard (or darn near impossible) for adventurers who are optimized and quite focused. Your advice is very good for a home campaign but probably very wrong for a Paizo publication.

As an aside, Paizo's GM guidelines are pretty good. Its a real pity that Paizo seems to so rarely follow them

[Unicore]

The “hyper optimization” dilemma is when players think that over focusing on one or two strengths will result in a better character than one that is built to balance well with the rest of the party and provide buff and debuff opportunities. There are just too many situations in higher level play where characters are not going to best utilize their greatest strength.

I see it often when players make new characters at higher levels fairly often.

[HumbleGamer]

Unicore wrote:

The “hyper optimization” dilemma is when players think that over focusing on one or two strengths will result in a better character than one that is built to balance well with the rest of the party and provide buff and debuff opportunities. There are just too many situations in higher level play where characters are not going to best utilize their greatest strength.

I see it often when players make new characters at higher levels fairly often.

I'd also consider that given the extremely slow progression, some characters would be able to be properly played at some point ( probably mid game ), while they could be underwhelming in the first part.

For example, some characters would benefit from an extra action more than others.

I can think about the swashbuckler, which is peculiar at some point

- Skill check ( Panache )
- Strike
- Finisher
- Bravado
- Shield/Parry

By lvl 10 you will be able to get your stance ( 1 required action less ), so 1 free action.
Eventually, you could take a dedication to get a free haste ( eventually more if you use scrolls ). Or maybe, you will be hasten by a party member.

Same goes for the fighter lvl 12 paragon stance ( to stride, raise, strike all turns is not that interesting. Better to have 1 or more extra actions ).

[TwilightKnight]

pauljathome wrote:

This is a published Paizo adventure. Experience has shown that these have a tendency to be written to make it hard (or darn near impossible) for adventurers who are optimized and quite focused. Your advice is very good for a home campaign but probably very wrong for a Paizo publication.

Meh. Technically all adventures that aren’t org play are home campaign. I’m running three APs and regularly GM modules on the side. Just because I follow the storyline, doesn’t mean my hands are tied. Even published adventures should be adjusted to fit your group. As Nefreet is so fond of saying, there is no such thing as RAW.

[pauljathome]

TwilightKnight wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

This is a published Paizo adventure. Experience has shown that these have a tendency to be written to make it hard (or darn near impossible) for adventurers who are optimized and quite focused. Your advice is very good for a home campaign but probably very wrong for a Paizo publication.

Meh. Technically all adventures that aren’t org play are home campaign. I’m running three APs and regularly GM modules on the side. Just because I follow the storyline, doesn’t mean my hands are tied. Even published adventures should be adjusted to fit your group. As Nefreet is so fond of saying, there is no such thing as RAW.

You're not wrong. But the amount of time a GM is willing to spend to modify an AP and the amount of games knowledge the GM has vary widely. A considerable subset of APs are run more or less as written

[WWHsmackdown]

pauljathome wrote:

TwilightKnight wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

This is a published Paizo adventure. Experience has shown that these have a tendency to be written to make it hard (or darn near impossible) for adventurers who are optimized and quite focused. Your advice is very good for a home campaign but probably very wrong for a Paizo publication.

Meh. Technically all adventures that aren’t org play are home campaign. I’m running three APs and regularly GM modules on the side. Just because I follow the storyline, doesn’t mean my hands are tied. Even published adventures should be adjusted to fit your group. As Nefreet is so fond of saying, there is no such thing as RAW.

You're not wrong. But the amount of time a GM is willing to spend o modify an AP and the amount of games knowledge the GM has vary widely. A considerable subset of APs are run more or less as written

Yea most of the time when I go off the rails in an ap it's due to rolling with the punches the characters dole out in session (no plan survives the players). It's usually not a pre planned thing. Of course you always steer back to the published content. The dms job is to steer back to the plot in aps (and to a lesser extent homebrew). The greatest magic trick you pull as a gm is convincing your players they had agency to begin with.