As a targeted ability, Invisibility/Total Concealment would foil it still. Otherwise yeah, "The attack automaticallly hits" is pretty all encompassing.
"That attack automatically hits." is pretty cut and dry. In my experience with the ability though, its not a mid combat ability.not a mid combat ability? why is that?
Because usually you don't have enough time to explain to someone who is actively attacking you (likely committing a separate crime in doing so) how this ability works, get them to agree to what is essentially a free hit, and then continue the fight afterwards.
Even if they agree from the middle of a fight, why would you go on fighting after you exonerate them (and why would they agree if they aren't innocent)? It's intended more as an execution attack that will simply not execute an innocent person. Sure you can still use it on an unwilling target, but even then, you're only getting a single (free) attack in a round when you could just be full round attacking.
I usually don't think of this as a combat ability, but that doesn't mean it can't be used in combat.
Since this is the rules forum I believe concealment and Mirror Image would still apply, simply because it doesn't say they don't.
Actually, is there a ruling on this for Magic Missile? Because that uses basically the same wording ...?
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I usually don't think of this as a combat ability, but that doesn't mean it can't be used in combat.
Since this is the rules forum I believe concealment and Mirror Image would still apply, simply because it doesn't say they don't.
Actually, is there a ruling on this for Magic Missile? Because that uses basically the same wording ...?
Mirror Image: Can I use magic missile to destroy one or more images from a mirror image spell?
No. Magic missile targets a creature and does not require an attack roll, so it bypasses all the images and always hits the real creature.
posted February 2012 | back to top
Concealment give a miss chance, so it has no effect if the attack "always hit".
Sword Against Injustice (Su): At 3rd level, a crusader may use his power to judge the guilty and absolve the innocent. As a standard action he may announce he is bringing Iomedae’s judgment upon a target who is accused of a crime, lie, or other affront to justice; the crusader makes a melee attack with his sword against the target as part of this judgment. If the target is innocent of what he is accused, the attack stops just short of striking him, as if hitting an invisible wall; if the target is guilty, the attack automatically hits with a flash of white light. This attack requires no attack roll and cannot critically hit. If the target is protected by an effect that inhibits divinations (such as mind blank), the attack bounces off the target with an unpleasant metallic hiss, like quenching a red-hot blade in water. The crusader may use this ability once per day; each additional use beyond the first drains him, causing him to become fatigued. He cannot use this class ability if he is exhausted. He may expend a use of channel energy or lay on hands while activating this ability to prevent fatigue. Sometimes people wrongly accused of great crimes beg for the intercession of an Inheritor’s crusader, knowing this power will exonerate them.
It is a targeted effect, but it is resolved with a melee attack, so mirror image works.
But the effect, as far as determining guilt or innocence goes, is the same: either the sword stroke hit the creature or one of its images, generating the flash of white light or it is stopped mid-air.
I usually don't think of this as a combat ability, but that doesn't mean it can't be used in combat.
Since this is the rules forum I believe concealment and Mirror Image would still apply, simply because it doesn't say they don't.
Actually, is there a ruling on this for Magic Missile? Because that uses basically the same wording ...?
Concealment give a miss chance, so it has no effect if the attack "always hit".Mirror Image: Can I use magic missile to destroy one or more images from a mirror image spell?
No. Magic missile targets a creature and does not require an attack roll, so it bypasses all the images and always hits the real creature.
posted February 2012 | back to top
For arguments sake, I would look at the bolded in particular. The first being very easy to open and shut until we read a clarifying passage later.
When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.
As Sword Against Injustice requires no attack roll, I believe it should fall under the later portion. I would say, yes you are making an attack, but Sword Against Injustice is an effect modifying that attack and allows you to bypass Mirror Image.
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I usually don't think of this as a combat ability, but that doesn't mean it can't be used in combat.
Since this is the rules forum I believe concealment and Mirror Image would still apply, simply because it doesn't say they don't.
Actually, is there a ruling on this for Magic Missile? Because that uses basically the same wording ...?
Concealment give a miss chance, so it has no effect if the attack "always hit".Mirror Image: Can I use magic missile to destroy one or more images from a mirror image spell?
No. Magic missile targets a creature and does not require an attack roll, so it bypasses all the images and always hits the real creature.
posted February 2012 | back to topFor arguments sake, I would look at the bolded in particular. The first being very easy to open and shut until we read a clarifying passage later.
As Sword Against Injustice requires no attack roll, I believe it should fall under the later portion. I would say, yes you are making an attack, but Sword...
When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.
The attack, as stated by the ability, is a melee attack, not a spell nor an effect.
The ability is unusual as it is both a targeted effect (when you select the target of the ability) and a melee attack (when you deliver the sword strike).The two things interact differently with Mirror image. The part that is a targeted effect doesn't care about MI, but the melee attack care.
You should look the definition of melee attack:
Standard Actions
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Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can’t strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).
A melee attack isn't an effect, it is an action. Having an effect that makes the success of that action automatic doesn't change that.
I think we can agree that Sword of Justice is badly written, and should be an effect, but RAW, the Crusader is making a melee attack, and the part you bolded works against spells and effects.
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If it came out in a game where I GM, I will change the text to:
Revised At 3rd level, a crusader may use his power to judge the guilty and absolve the innocent. As a standard action he may announce he is bringing Iomedae’s judgment upon a target who is accused of a crime, lie, or other affront to justice; the crusader makes a swing with his sword against the target as part of this judgment.
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and call it an effect.
That way it will not care about Mirror Image.
A melee attack isn't an effect, it is an action. Having an effect that makes the success of that action automatic doesn't change that.
Yeah I think you're reading way too much into it. The effect is they take damage . There are plenty of effects that come from weapons, it's not to do with whether it's an attack or not.
So it looks like RAW this ability would bypass Mirror Image.
Personally I would probably change this as the GM since it doesn't seem to fit the RAI. It seems pretty hard to game the system with this though, so I might end up allowing it since the player's invested this much and it's only a standard action attack.
I don't think it gets past miss-chances though, so Blur/Displacement/Invisibility would still potentially save you from it (and waste a use of the ability).
If it came out in a game where I GM, I will change the text to:
Revised At 3rd level, a crusader may use his power to judge the guilty and absolve the innocent. As a standard action he may announce he is bringing Iomedae’s judgment upon a target who is accused of a crime, lie, or other affront to justice; the crusader makes a swing with his sword against the target as part of this judgment.
...and call it an effect.
That way it will not care about Mirror Image.
It already doesn’t care about mirror images... you seem to have skipped over part of the abilities rules.
Sword Against Injustice (Su)
At 3rd level, a crusader may use his power to judge the guilty and absolve the innocent. As a standard action he may announce he is bringing divine judgment upon a target who is accused of a crime, lie, or other affront to justice; the crusader makes a melee attack with his sword against the target as part of this judgment. If the target is innocent of what he is accused, the attack stops just short of striking him, as if hitting an invisible wall; if the target is guilty, the attack automatically hits with a flash of white light.
This attack requires [u]no attack roll[/u] and cannot critically hit. If the target is protected by an effect that inhibits divinations (such as mind blank), the attack bounces off the target with an unpleasant metallic hiss, like quenching a red-hot blade in water. The crusader may use this ability once per day; each additional use beyond the first drains him, causing him to become fatigued. He cannot use this class ability if he is exhausted. He may expend a use of channel energy or lay on hands while activating this ability to prevent fatigue. Sometimes people wrongly accused of great crimes beg for the intercession of an Inheritor’s crusader, knowing this power will exonerate them.
Yes, it says it is an melee attack, but it also states quite clearly and in no uncertain words that the attack is an effect that requires no attack roll.
On the topic of the Inheritor's Crusader why on the pfsrd does the hit die and class skills have asterisks next to them.
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It already doesn’t care about mirror images... you seem to have skipped over part of the abilities rules.
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Yes, it says it is an melee attack, but it also states quite clearly and in no uncertain words that the attack is an effect that requires no attack roll.
makes a melee attack
Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally.
The melee attack is neither a spell nor an effect.
Whenever you are attacked
or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll
Mirror image, for weapon attacks, cares about you being attacked, no about the attack requiring an attack roll.
It cares for spells that require an attack roll.Almost certainly the writer of MI hasn't considered the existence of weapons attacks that automatically hit, but we have that situation here.
Actually, there is an attack in the CRB that automatically hits: Coup de Grace.
So, let's take a test:
You would have Coup de Grace function automatically on an unconscious person with mirror image active?
Lets make it interesting, can I use vital strike with this ability?
Nope.
The melee attack is neither a spell nor an effect.
What makes you think this?
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The melee attack is neither a spell nor an effect.What makes you think this?
It is a melee attack.
A melee attack isn't a spell.A melee attack isn't an effect.
What makes you think that a melee attack is either of those?
As long as the ability effect says "the crusader makes a melee attack", the crusader makes a melee attack, with all that is implied by a melee attack.
It doesn't matter if the melee attack is an effect of something different, the melee attack stays a melee attack, and that is a specific game term that defines a specific thing.
You can argue that RAI almost certainly was something different, but RAW, using the ability grants you a melee attack. A melee attacks that automatically hits, but Mirror Image can turn a hit into a hit to one of the images, and the ability has nothing that changes that.
It's not just a melee attack though. Sword Against Justice is a supernatural ability activated as a standard action. You declare a target, make a judgement and accuse them of a crime. Then as part of this standard action, you make a melee attack that automatically hits if they're guilty.
The melee attack is neither a spell nor an effect.What makes you think this?It is a melee attack.
A melee attack isn't a spell.
A melee attack isn't an effect.
You can make melee attacks as part of casting a spell.
As Scavion said, it's not just an attack it's a Supernatural Ability, and it definitely has an effect.
Tuere's nothing in the rules that I can see that says an Attack can't be an Effect or an Effect can't be an Attack.
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The melee attack is neither a spell nor an effect.What makes you think this?It is a melee attack.
A melee attack isn't a spell.
A melee attack isn't an effect.You can make melee attacks as part of casting a spell.
As Scavion said, it's not just an attack it's a Supernatural Ability, and it definitely has an effect.
Tuere's nothing in the rules that I can see that says an Attack can't be an Effect or an Effect can't be an Attack.
So now the melee attack you get by casting a spell is a spell?
Does it provoke?Can it be countered?
Activating the SU ability and resolving the melee attack are two separate things.
What are you talking about? 0_o
Seriously I'm so confused.
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Oh. No I wasn't saying this is a spell, I'm saying that spells can include melee attacks, Spell-like/Supernatural/Extraordinary abilities can also include melee attacks. This doesn't mean those abilities don't include "Effects", it simply explains how they're delivered.
You think all Effects are Triangles, and all Attacks are Circles. Circles can't be Triangles and Triangles can't be Circles, so they're incompatible.
In actual fact all Effects are Rectangles and all Attacks are Parrallellagrams with equal length sides. They're usually not the same, but occasionally you get something which is both a Rectangle AND a Parrallelagram with equal length sides ... it's called a "Square".
They're not correlated, but they're not mutually exclusive either.
Activating the SU ability and resolving the melee attack are two separate things.
Oh, I missed this part ... no they aren't.
As a standard action he may announce he is bringing Iomedae’s judgment upon a target who is accused of a crime, lie, or other affront to justice; the crusader makes a melee attack with his sword against the target as part of this judgment.
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Activating the SU ability and resolving the melee attack are two separate things.Oh, I missed this part ... no they aren't.
As a standard action he may announce he is bringing Iomedae’s judgment upon a target who is accused of a crime, lie, or other affront to justice; the crusader makes a melee attack with his sword against the target as part of this judgment.
Yes, they are, even if they are part of the same action.
To make a few examples of how casting a spell and making the free attack you get with it are two separate things:
Casting Scorching Ray provokes when you cast the spell and when you attack.
Spellstrike allows you to change the free attack you get from a touch spell to a weapon attack.
You can cast a spell, move, and deliver the free touch attack if gave you.
Same thing when you use a supernatural ability.
You think all Effects are Triangles, and all Attacks are Circles. Circles can't be Triangles and Triangles can't be Circles, so they're incompatible.
Thanks for explaining to me what I think.
Sorry, but you are wrong, and you have missed my argument by a wide margin if you think that is the point.|
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I still can't believe there is this much discussion over 'Automatically hits'.
Its Paladin Smite vs dr/epic all over again.
I repeat the same question I made above, seeing that no one answered it.
A Coup de grace against an opponent with mirror images will have a chance of hitting one of the images or it will always hit the true target?
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Supernatual abilities are described like this:
"Supernatural abilities are magical attacks, defenses, and qualities. These abilities can be always active or they can require a specific action to utilize. The supernatural ability’s description includes information on how it is used and its effects."
Even if we treat attacks as being distinct from effects, "Sword Against Injustice" is a supernatural ability, which can specifically include attacks, so every part of it is an effect.
Mirror Image doesn't prevent a coup de grace either. If there's no roll to hit, mirror image doesn't prevent an effect, regardless of whether or not coup de grace is described as an attack.
You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
While not explicit, I don't see why this wouldn't apply to mirror Image as well.
I agree with MrCharisma's view, even if RAW doesn't.If we go with RAI, I agree. But the writer of the ability did write in a way where RAW will allow Mirror Image to work.
It's worth noting that my first post in this thread was arguing the exact opposite of what I've been saying since we checked the FAQ on Magic Missile. I'm not arguing this out of a belief that I'm right, I'm arguing based on the rules that have been brought to bare.
As far as I can tell your argument hinges entirely on the premise: "Attacks =/= Effects". I can't really see anything in the rules to support this. Paizo have repeatedly said they don't write in "legalese", they write in plain english. A word like "effect" would 100% apply to an ability that is used to determine the innocence of a person.
I guess what I'm saying is: Convince me.
Rather than arguing the flavour and/or minutae - take some time, put your thoughts in order and weite it out as compellingly as you can.
Points to consider: Where/how does it say that attacks cannot be effects? Why is the attack separate from the rest of the ability? Assuming Coup de Grace DOES work through Mirror image why is this ability different (or explain why it doesn't work on Coup De Grace)?
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Effect
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 418
The effect of a trap is what happens to those who spring it. This often takes the form of either damage or a spell effect, but some traps have special effects. A trap usually either makes an attack roll or forces a saving throw to avoid it. Occasionally a trap uses both of these options, or neither (see Never Miss).
AFAIK that is the only definition of Effect in the whole body of Pathfinder 1 rules. Not useful.
So we should use the normal meaning of the word.
The effect of Sword Against Injustice is all the stuff that happens when you use the ability, attack included, but the attack has specific stuff in its description: "the crusader makes a melee attack with his sword".
Then it continues: "the attack automatically hits with a flash of white light." It doesn't remove the need to attack, it simply makes it an automatic success. Like a Cyclop's ability to select the number it rolled on a d20, like the Coup de grace and probably other abilities.
Then we have Mirror Image: "Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll". Note that what it checks is if you are attacked. For the spell it specify that it will be a spell that requires an attack roll, i.e. not a spell that automatically targets a creature (like Hold Person or Magic Missile).
Then "Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments." The Crusader is making a melee attack. Melee attack requires attack rolls. His attack roll is an automatic success.
Your argument is that the melee attack isn't a melee attack, and so it isn't affected by Mirror Image.
My argument is that it is still a melee attack, as clearly stated in the ability, so it follows the rules of melee attacks.
As long as the ability says that the crusade makes a melee attack, it follows the rules for melee attacks. Its damage can be reduced by DR, a guy with In Harm's Way can intercept it, and so on.
If you have Mirror Image active, and spring a "Never Miss" trap... what happens?
If you have Mirror Image active, and are subject to a Coup de Grace... what happens?
Probably the exact same thing as what happens with Mirror Image and Magic Missile.
School illusion (figment); Level adept 2, arcanist 2, bard 2, bloodrager 2, magus 2, medium 2, mesmerist 2, occultist 2, psychic 2, redmantisassassin 2, skald 2, sorcerer 2, wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).
Ok I think I see where Diego is coming from.
The first bold section says:
Whenever you
are attacked
or
are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll,
there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead.
So in this scenario:
It's not "(Attacks or spells) that don't require an attack roll"
It's "(Attacks) or (Spells that don't require an attack roll)"
... that ignore the Mirror Images.
I can see that argument and understand where you're coming from now. However I think the second bolded section supercedes the first in adding "Effects" to the list of things that can ignore the images.
Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments.
This is a separate sentence that qualifies any effects that "do not require an attack roll" as being part of the group that ignore the Mirror Images. It doesn't have any caveats.
If both bolded sections are true then grammatically the second section would be the more specific qualifier, meaning "attacks" must roll on the images unless they are also an "effect that does not require an attack roll". In effect, the second section IS the caveat to the first section.
How does that scan?
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This is a separate sentence that qualifies any effects that "do not require an attack roll" as being part of the group that ignore the Mirror Images. It doesn't have any caveats.
Melee attacks require attack rolls. It being automatically successful doesn't change that.
The first part of the ability says "As a standard action he may announce he is bringing Iomedae’s judgment upon a target who is accused of a crime, lie, or other affront to justice", and that part work regardless of Mirror Image, that part never require an attack. then we have the melee attack that has an attack roll that is automatically successful.
If you have Mirror Image active, and spring a "Never Miss" trap... what happens?
If you have Mirror Image active, and are subject to a Coup de Grace... what happens?
Probably the exact same thing as what happens with Mirror Image and Magic Missile.
You have an example of a "never miss trap" that makes an attack that normally requires an attack roll?
Melee attacks require attack rolls. It being automatically successful doesn't change that.
Ah ... yes it does?
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Melee attacks require attack rolls. It being automatically successful doesn't change that.Ah ... yes it does?
Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the attack action on page 182).
A 20 is an automatic hit. Does that mean that Mirror Image doesn't work?
You should prove that being an automatic success change how the melee attack works. You need a piece of the rules that says that something changes how stuff works for it to be changed. The only thing of the melee attack that Sword Against Injustice says it changes is that it is an automatic hit. Then you infer from that that it isn't a melee attack anymore. Rules don't work that way.
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Melee attacks require attack rolls. It being automatically successful doesn't change that.Ah ... yes it does?Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the attack action on page 182).A 20 is an automatic hit. Does that mean that Mirror Image doesn't work?
You should prove that being an automatic success change how the melee attack works. You need a piece of the rules that says that something changes how stuff works for it to be changed. The only thing of the melee attack that Sword Against Injustice says it changes is that it is an automatic hit. Then you infer from that that it isn't a melee attack anymore. Rules don't work that way.
No need to prove anything here. The very next line in the ability after the automatic hit directly states that the ability requires no attack roll.
If it just said “this ability automatically hit” and that was it, I might agree with you that mirror images applies, but it goes on to say that it requires no attack roll. It is all spelled out in black and white plain English there. The attack is an effect that Requires no attack roll. It isn’t treated as a nat 20 or anything similar that simply applies an predefined roll result, it flat out requires no roll.
Yeah I think you got caught up with the CYCLOPS HELM. The Cyclops Helm lets you choose the result of the die, which usually gets used for an "automatic natural 20". This is Not the same thing. As far as the game is concerned the Cyclops Helm still required a roll, you just got to choose which face it landed on. A Natural 20 is a hit as a result of the die-roll, so it still requires you to roll.
For effects like Magic Missile and Sword Against Injustice there is no roll needed.
The only thing that the ability being called out as “a melee attack” actually means is that it is performed with your melee weapon. The damage and range are set by your choice of weapon and melee reach with said weapon. It also allows for effects that trigger when you are hit with an attack to trigger (such as the retaliatory damage from fire shield). If mirror image didn’t specifically call out effects that do not require an attack roll to bypass the images and always hit the real one, then mirror image could have applied.