Do the benefits of a diplomat's badge include that of Recall Knowledge?
That is, does it act kind of like Bespell Weapon, where you activate it by casting a spell, gaining the full benefits of said spell, then also adding the benefits of Bespell Weapon?
(Or in this case, activate it by using Recall Knowledge, getting the full benefits of Recall Knowledge to identify a creature, then also getting the badge's benefits.)
Or is it more like you make a Recall Knowledge check and ONLY get the badge benefits if you beat the DC 20?
This came up in one of my games last night, where the GM and I seemed to have different stances on the matter. As I failed the check anyways, it wasn't really discussed much farther, but I'm curious to know how others read the rules in situations like this.
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This is how I see the item working
Assume you are in Absalom
First day
You always have the +1 bonus when you display it. You decide to go down the sewers to meet up with the Sewer Dragons of Absalom. So you make a DC20 Recall Knowledge check - assuming a success - the bonus goes to +2 for kobolds.
In the evening you tell your story in an inn and are back to +1 as all your comrades listening are humans.
Second day
You are send to make a deal with the Ambassador for Cheliax. Again you succeed - and gain a +2 bonus on diplomacy to deal with Chelaxians.
The afternoon you are back to the Sewer Dragons - the bonus with them is +1.
It is up to the GM to decide how wide he/she would allow the +2 to work. All kobolds? Just the Sewer Dragons you deal with?
Chelaxians instead of all humans in Absalom etc.
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This is not a Recall Knowledge to identify a creature, but an Ethnicity or Ancestry. So you would do a DC 20 Society or Orc Lore to Recall Knowledge on Orcs, and know that Orcs are generally hot tempered but respect physical strength. This knowledge of culture is what gives you the increased bonus. Skills and Feats that reference Recall Knowledge help with this check.
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The format for activated magic items is:
Activate [Number of Actions] [Action used to Activate]
So for example, if it says Interact, you need to interact with the item, it's not a trigger that you can use when you interact with anything else. Same with this, the action is using the Recall Knowledge action, it's not a trigger that can be used when you Recall Knowledge on anything you want.
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Recall Knowledge is a specific type of skill action with specific effects that the item is asking you to make, so there's no reason (imo) the results wouldn't function like the results of a recall knowledge check... because that's what you're doing.
IMO would be kind of like arguing Dragging Strike doesn't do damage and only makes the target flat-footed even though it tells you to make a Strike.
If it said "Make a Society Check" then I'd agree that's all you get, because a society check on its own doesn't mean anything, but this instead is asking for a specific type of skill action.
*Reads Cordell's interpretation.*
*Reads Squiggit's interpretation.*
Case in point. XD
Thod, are you indicating that the player would not also benefit from the Recall Knowledge action? Or did you just misunderstand what it was that I was asking?
Under Actions:
An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions on page 469—in a different circumstance or with different effects. This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride. The Stride would still have the move trait, would still trigger reactions that occur based on movement, and so on.
You are Recalling Knowledge, with all of the normal effects of doing so except where specified (increasing the item bonus of the badge on a success).
I'm also not sure what Cordell is talking about, since the badge is quite clear that you can Recall Knowledge about "some other type of creature" - it's not limited to an ethnicity or ancestry.
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Under Actions:
An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions on page 469—in a different circumstance or with different effects. This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride. The Stride would still have the move trait, would still trigger reactions that occur based on movement, and so on.You are Recalling Knowledge, with all of the normal effects of doing so except where specified (increasing the item bonus of the badge on a success).
I'm also not sure what Cordell is talking about, since the badge is quite clear that you can Recall Knowledge about "some other type of creature" - it's not limited to an ethnicity or ancestry.
Yes, like Bears. If you're talking to bears and want to use your badge, you would make a Recall Knowledge check about Bears. Not that specific bear you are talking to, but Bears as a species. You know they like fish and honey, and can use that to your advantage while talking to Bears for the rest of the day. There's no reason to assume this magic item works any differently than any other by giving you a free action to Recall Knowledge AND get a Diplomacy bonus.
This can NOT be used to Recall Knowledge on a specific creature in the same way that the standard Recall Knowledge action is used as. The function of this check is to recall information about the creatures you want to impress with diplomacy, not recall weaknesses and resistances and what not.
Again, since this action is used to Activate a magic item, it is limited in how it's used. Like I said before, an item with Interact doesn't mean you can Interact with anything you want. If the activation was Cast a Spell, you don't get to Cast anything you want either, you Cast the spell on the item.
Under Actions:
An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions on page 469—in a different circumstance or with different effects. This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride. The Stride would still have the move trait, would still trigger reactions that occur based on movement, and so on.You are Recalling Knowledge, with all of the normal effects of doing so except where specified (increasing the item bonus of the badge on a success).
I'm also not sure what Cordell is talking about, since the badge is quite clear that you can Recall Knowledge about "some other type of creature" - it's not limited to an ethnicity or ancestry.
Yes, like Bears. If you're talking to bears and want to use your badge, you would make a Recall Knowledge check about Bears. Not that specific bear you are talking to, but Bears as a species. You know they like fish and honey, and can use that to your advantage while talking to Bears for the rest of the day. There's no reason to assume this magic item works any differently than any other by giving you a free action to Recall Knowledge AND get a Diplomacy bonus.
This can NOT be used to Recall Knowledge on a specific creature in the same way that the standard Recall Knowledge action is used as. The function of this check is to recall information about the creatures you want to impress with diplomacy, not recall weaknesses and resistances and what not.
Again, since this action is used to Activate a magic item, it is limited in how it's used. Like I said before, an item with Interact doesn't mean you can Interact with anything you want. If the activation was Cast a Spell, you don't get to Cast anything you want either, you Cast the spell on the item.
A) Recalling knowledge about a type of creature is what you normally do when recalling knowledge about a creature, I have no idea where you got the idea that recalling knowledge about specifically one bear is meaningfully different.
B) You Recall Knowledge as part of activating the item because that's what it says that you do. There are no special limitations other than to be recalling knowledge about a group of creatures (which, again, is pretty normal) because the item does not indicate that there are.
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I've explained this before, Recalling Knowledge on a creature has multiple DCs. If you're using it on a creature you're encountering, lets say an Orc, there's 3 DCs.
1) The easiest one, you know it's an Orc and all the Orcy stuff it has. This is usually super easy for common Humanoids, like a DC 10. Harder for rarer creatures, usually Level based for base versions of creatures, like an unmodified Bear for example.
2) You know it's an Orc Skirmisher, you know its general strength and that it can use a particular special ability that you might want to look out for. This is the Level based DC for modified creatures.
3) You know this orc in particular is Ragok the Ravager, who took down an entire army of Undead with their bare hands. This is the Unique creature DC, which is the level DC +10. Only applicable to Unique creatures.
Knowing about the biology of a creature and the culture of a creature are different subjects to Recall Knowledge on. When you encounter a creature in combat, you want to know what it can do to kill you and how to kill it first, not about what it likes to eat or how to impress it. This badge is inquiring about Culture and Society and what things like, not the standard Recall Knowledge you would do in combat.
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*Reads Cordell's interpretation.*
*Reads Squiggit's interpretation.*
Case in point. XD
Thod, are you indicating that the player would not also benefit from the Recall Knowledge action? Or did you just misunderstand what it was that I was asking?
It is a flat DC20 check to activate - so the answer is NO.
A Kobold Warrior is DC13 - so you get that info even on a 15 but would NOT get the Recall Knowledge.
You want to parley with an Alghollthu Master - you are in luck. A DC20 is enough to get you the +2 bonus.
BUT - you still need a DC25 to recall other knowledge about the Alghollthu Master
This is not meant to be a loophole to allow a DC20 Recall Knowledge on any creature you like. Otherwise at higher level - buy 10 badges. Do a flat DC20 recall knowledge at start of encounter - guess high enough level that is auto succeed - bingo. Change badge and attune new before next encounter.
This is not meant to be a loophole to allow a DC20 Recall Knowledge on any creature you like.
That is not at all what I was suggesting, much less arguing for.
I was thinking something more along the lines of the following:
Let's say a typical Recall Knowledge check DC for creature X is 25.
I use my badge, get a check result of 30, get the +2 bonus because I beat the badge's DC 20, then also get creature x's other information because I beat the Recall Knowledge DC of 25.
This is not meant to be a loophole to allow a DC20 Recall Knowledge on any creature you like.That is not at all what I was suggesting, much less arguing for.
I was thinking something more along the lines of the following:
Let's say a typical Recall Knowledge check DC for creature X is 25.
I use my badge, get a check result of 30, get the +2 bonus because I beat the badge's DC 20, then also get creature x's other information because I beat the Recall Knowledge DC of 25.
Well, the Recall Knowledge actions says:
You attempt a skill check to try to remember a bit of knowledge regarding a topic related to that skill. The GM determines the DCs for such checks and which skills apply.
Critical Success You recall the knowledge accurately and gain additional information or context.
Success You recall the knowledge accurately or gain a useful clue about your current situation.
So it comes down to what constitutes "a bit of knowledge" or "useful clue." My rule of thumb is that a single success grants one piece of information and you need a critical success to get multiple. So I'd probably treat it like Cordell says: you can recall cultural knowledge or combat knowledge as part of the check, but not both for the same action.
Also, I am not sure the Diplomat's Badge action would be able to tell you what a creature you're looking at is in the first place...it says you recall knowledge about a type of creature, which you could read as "you need to actually be able to name the thing." Which would nearly bypass the issue of being able to use a DC 20 check to identify a higher level creature.
Most importantly though, this seems like it will barely ever matter. You pretty much never use diplomacy in combat which is the only time the action cost would be relevant. Otherwise you can just take separate actions. The only advantage is getting two things out if one good roll, but that also means a bad roll would prevent you from rolling the other check. Seems like it kinda evens out.
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@ravindork
I really would like to understand your motivation why you need a single check?
1) You want to recall knowledge and activate the badge during combat in a single action ?
Harmless and ok in my book - you just have 2 different DC values
2) You want to avoid the +2 penalty for a second check ?
In my view the activate is a different 'kind of knowledge' as the normal recall knowledge - so I wouldn't apply any penalty for a second (thirst, etc. recall knowledge / activate badge value.
3) Get info for a cheaper DC
You might learn that Alghollthu Masters like you to bow when adressing them - great to get an extra +1 for diplomacy but meaningless in a fight. So if you don't get he DC25 as well - nothing gained
As far as I see it:
1 hardly ever gets a benefit for a player. If you recall knowledge once a fight started then diplomacy tends to be too late. There is the Empathetic Plea reaction of a gnome. So yes - for this situation it would make sense to combine it / use it in combat - but I struggle to find other uses
2 would be in my view getting the rules wrong - and I have the feeling it didn't even yet occur to you that a second (RK) check should have a penalty if it is a normal RK
3 would make sense - this is the rules forum. Likely more then 50% of questions are done to somehow get an edge using rules in interesting ways But you say that isn't why you want to do it?
I'm at a loss - understanding the why might enlighten me to what else to answer / what else to elaborate
I've seen enough examples of similar rules cases (and have found more on my own what's more) to agree that it is unclear how it is intended to work.
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I don't see how it's unclear. You activate the item and make a recall knowledge check. Reference what Recall Knowledge does and do it.
But the item also asks for a specific type of recall knowledge check. You're not getting information outside the purview of what it's specifying and you're not going to be able to 'double up' on the check either.
Anything beyond than that is an issue of GM discretion.
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Again the subject you are Recalling has nothing to do with the info you would normally recall in combat. The badge is about diplomacy, you would make a Recall Knowledge check to know about whatever the thing's culture is, and if you beat a 20 you get a bonus to diplomacy. Knowing that a creature is immune to Acid damage does NOT make you better at talking to them.
They are different subjects and thus have different DCs and different rolls. They do not affect each other in any way.