I know this is going to sound stupid.
When running a PFA, I'm assuming the treasure listed in the encounters is all the players are getting? No table rolling (unless I'm using random encounters...)The question comes up because, looking at some of the stuff they've gotten seems a little low. However this may just be my not seeing the total loot rewards in the entirety.
I guess it's intentional for some modules and adventure paths. Limited loot has some benefits:
1) It prunes the power of a party, so they are more likely to be actually challenged - instead of bored. This balancing mechanism suffers from being unfair (equipment depending classes / concepts are nerfed more than others), but I wouldn't outright dismiss this option.
2) It makes alternative solutions more attractive, resulting in a more diverse game. A mix of spells, consumables, NPC services and different approaches to battle is more interesting than "yeah, I have powerful equipment, hence I win". Even though the latter is more comfortable for the player.
3) The individual loot piece feels more valuable if there are fewer of them.
Game design is about the playing experience you want to evoke. If you want to create a harsh environment where the players' avatars (PCs) struggle to get along (like horror), limited loot is a good tool. If you want them to feel empowered instead, handing out wealth like candy is more suitable.
Yes this is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.
And yes, PFA for 'Pathfinder Adventure'
Thanks
I assume they mean 'Pathfinder Adventure', as in adventure modules or APs. In any case, yes, listed treasure is all the PCs are getting unless you want to give them more.
We have found that the AP's are pretty sparse overall in terms of treasure and always add extra. (sometimes ALOT extra)
AP's are designed for 15 point buy and a lower power level than MOST people tend to play (from my own observations). They are meant to be challenging.
|
There are a number of APs where the loot is technically right for WBL, but is set as items that it is likely the party will look at in disappointment and then toss in a bag to sell - the obvious example being the selection of truly weird weapons that you get in Rise of the Runelords (Book 1 - dogslicers. Book 2 - war razors. Book 3 - ogre hooks, Book 4 - everything is giant sized).
So IMHO as a ref be willing to either modify the loot as written or give the party reasonable options to trade what they've found for something else that they are likely to use.
AP's are designed for 15 point buy and a lower power level than MOST people tend to play (from my own observations). They are meant to be challenging.
The AP I am currently running for my friends would have had multiple TPKs if we weren't boosting a number of things, including level, point buy, number of players and WBL, and even with those boosts it's come close to having TPKs anyway.
AP's are designed for 15 point buy and a lower power level than MOST people tend to play (from my own observations). They are meant to be challenging.The AP I am currently running for my friends would have had multiple TPKs if we weren't boosting a number of things, including level, point buy, number of players and WBL, and even with those boosts it's come close to having TPKs anyway.
Sometimes difficulty is just a party composition/level of power the party built for thing. A really strong 2handed fighter build can be almost as strong without magical items whatsoever as they can be with magical items. A +5 sword is just +5 to atk on a class that usually isn't missing save their low iteratives and +5 damage on every hit when they're already doing ~+40 damage.
A sorcerer built well doesn't need much in the way of magic items except headband for bonus spells and save DC's. A rogue really needs it because they aren't good enough at anything by default to not need the boost.
|
A +5 sword is a bit more than that.
- you need a magic weapon to damage incorporeal creatures with physical attacks;
- you need a +3 weapon to bypass most material DR;
- you need a +5 weapon to bypass alignment DR.
In our last gaming session, we meed a Dybbuk. Incorporeal and DR 10/good.
As we had no +5, no Good weapons, and Align weapon had already been used, it was a pain to damage it.
While true it can be, and it’s rarer by the time you can have +5 weapons to not be fighting things that need some form of magic weapon to properly counter their defenses, it’s also possible to still make up more or less the 2 CR/Level difference that having absolutely no magic gear entails.
AP's are designed for 15 point buy and a lower power level than MOST people tend to play (from my own observations). They are meant to be challenging.The AP I am currently running for my friends would have had multiple TPKs if we weren't boosting a number of things, including level, point buy, number of players and WBL, and even with those boosts it's come close to having TPKs anyway.Sometimes difficulty is just a party composition/level of power the party built for thing. A really strong 2handed fighter build can be almost as strong without magical items whatsoever as they can be with magical items. A +5 sword is just +5 to atk on a class that usually isn't missing save their low iteratives and +5 damage on every hit when they're already doing ~+40 damage.
A sorcerer built well doesn't need much in the way of magic items except headband for bonus spells and save DC's. A rogue really needs it because they aren't good enough at anything by default to not need the boost.
I've played long enough to realize that. however, this particular adventure path is rough.
Example: a 6th level party encountering a CR 7 Air elemental while on a 10' wide bridge, over a 100' fall. moving at full speed requires a DC 15 Reflex check to not fall off. If you take damage it's another DC 15 reflex to not fall off.
Later encounter: similar bridge, but only 5' wide and made of wood, same falling criteria, but this time encountering a CR8 Erinyes.
So yes, I can think of specific player characters which could decently handle those encounters, but a random average party, at standard 15 point build and EBL, not so much.
Not to mention the CR 11 creature they fight later while under the effects of a Call Lightning spell.
I've played long enough to realize that. however, this particular adventure path is rough.
Example: a 6th level party encountering a CR 7 Air elemental while on a 10' wide bridge, over a 100' fall. moving at full speed requires a DC 15 Reflex check to not fall off. If you take damage it's another DC 15 reflex to not fall off.
Later encounter: similar bridge, but only 5' wide and made of wood, same falling criteria, but this time encountering a CR8 Erinyes.
So yes, I can think of specific player characters which could decently handle those encounters, but a random average party, at standard 15 point build and EBL, not so much.
Not to mention the CR 11 creature they fight later while under the effects of a Call Lightning spell.
This makes me wonder about the campaign itself. Did the party ever have a chance to purchase items that they want? Did the party choose to hyperfocus on the big five items rather than hold their impatience back and purchase consumable items? A typical 6th level party that doesn't hyperfocus and makes sure their consumable item supply is somewhat well rounded would have had the means to reduce the challenge of said encounters.
|
|
Later encounter: similar bridge, but only 5' wide and made of wood, same falling criteria, but this time encountering a CR8 Erinyes.
Oh, that one. She one-shotted my magus with a bow critical as soon as she appeared.
There is some good stuff in that AP, but it is hidden in some strange corner in the first AP. We where able to get a Dusty Rose ioun stone in the first module, and that is a 5,000 gp magic item.
This makes me wonder about the campaign itself. Did the party ever have a chance to purchase items that they want? Did the party choose to hyperfocus on the big five items rather than hold their impatience back and purchase consumable items? A typical 6th level party that doesn't hyperfocus and makes sure their consumable item supply is somewhat well rounded would have had the means to reduce the challenge of said encounters.
Till that point in the AP you are first in a small village, then pressed for time. If they have reached that point they should have some time to customize the equipment and some stuff to sell to buy it.
This makes me wonder about the campaign itself. Did the party ever have a chance to purchase items that they want? Did the party choose to hyperfocus on the big five items rather than hold their impatience back and purchase consumable items? A typical 6th level party that doesn't hyperfocus and makes sure their consumable item supply is somewhat well rounded would have had the means to reduce the challenge of said encounters.I've played long enough to realize that. however, this particular adventure path is rough.
Example: a 6th level party encountering a CR 7 Air elemental while on a 10' wide bridge, over a 100' fall. moving at full speed requires a DC 15 Reflex check to not fall off. If you take damage it's another DC 15 reflex to not fall off.
Later encounter: similar bridge, but only 5' wide and made of wood, same falling criteria, but this time encountering a CR8 Erinyes.
So yes, I can think of specific player characters which could decently handle those encounters, but a random average party, at standard 15 point build and EBL, not so much.
Not to mention the CR 11 creature they fight later while under the effects of a Call Lightning spell.
The party has had multiple chances to buy whatever gear they want, but if you go purely by what the Adventure Path give out then they won't have much gold to spend on anything.
They have bought a mix of consumables and a few lower end items of the big 6, but honestly even with the extra gold I've been giving, they haven't been able to buy much.
Later encounter: similar bridge, but only 5' wide and made of wood, same falling criteria, but this time encountering a CR8 Erinyes.
Oh, that one. She one-shotted my magus with a bow critical as soon as she appeared.
There is some good stuff in that AP, but it is hidden in some strange corner in the first AP. We where able to get a Dusty Rose ioun stone in the first module, and that is a 5,000 gp magic item.
This makes me wonder about the campaign itself. Did the party ever have a chance to purchase items that they want? Did the party choose to hyperfocus on the big five items rather than hold their impatience back and purchase consumable items? A typical 6th level party that doesn't hyperfocus and makes sure their consumable item supply is somewhat well rounded would have had the means to reduce the challenge of said encounters.Till that point in the AP you are first in a small village, then pressed for time. If they have reached that point they should have some time to customize the equipment and some stuff to sell to buy it.
over the course of the two bridges, 3 characters failed their saves and went over the edge, and I decided to be nice and give them 2 chances to pass the DC 15 before they fell.
|
|
Later encounter: similar bridge, but only 5' wide and made of wood, same falling criteria, but this time encountering a CR8 Erinyes.
Oh, that one. She one-shotted my magus with a bow critical as soon as she appeared.
There is some good stuff in that AP, but it is hidden in some strange corner in the first AP. We where able to get a Dusty Rose ioun stone in the first module, and that is a 5,000 gp magic item.
This makes me wonder about the campaign itself. Did the party ever have a chance to purchase items that they want? Did the party choose to hyperfocus on the big five items rather than hold their impatience back and purchase consumable items? A typical 6th level party that doesn't hyperfocus and makes sure their consumable item supply is somewhat well rounded would have had the means to reduce the challenge of said encounters.Till that point in the AP you are first in a small village, then pressed for time. If they have reached that point they should have some time to customize the equipment and some stuff to sell to buy it.over the course of the two bridges, 3 characters failed their saves and went over the edge, and I decided to be nice and give them 2 chances to pass the DC 15 before they fell.
From what I recall our GM gave us some kind of skill check. If I recall correctly it was Climb if we were hugging the planks. We used a rope to make a safe guide on the bridge.
A Reflex save seems very wrong as the first thing to use. It is appropriate to avoid falling if you miss the skill check, but the skills are there exactly for that, being used when you need them.It is bad design on the author's part making it a save.
It is one of the instances where a skilled character gets to shine and the author removes it.
It's part of climbing rules:
Catch a Falling Character While Climbing
If someone climbing above you or adjacent to you falls, you can attempt to catch the falling character if he or she is within your reach. Doing so requires a successful melee touch attack against the falling character (though he or she can voluntarily forgo any Dexterity bonus to AC if desired). If you hit, you must immediately attempt a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 10). Success indicates that you catch the falling character, but his total weight, including equipment, cannot exceed your heavy load limit or you automatically fall. If you fail your Climb check by 4 or less, you fail to stop the character’s fall but don’t lose your grip on the wall. If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to stop the character’s fall and begin falling as well.
Later encounter: similar bridge, but only 5' wide and made of wood, same falling criteria, but this time encountering a CR8 Erinyes.
Oh, that one. She one-shotted my magus with a bow critical as soon as she appeared.
There is some good stuff in that AP, but it is hidden in some strange corner in the first AP. We where able to get a Dusty Rose ioun stone in the first module, and that is a 5,000 gp magic item.
This makes me wonder about the campaign itself. Did the party ever have a chance to purchase items that they want? Did the party choose to hyperfocus on the big five items rather than hold their impatience back and purchase consumable items? A typical 6th level party that doesn't hyperfocus and makes sure their consumable item supply is somewhat well rounded would have had the means to reduce the challenge of said encounters.Till that point in the AP you are first in a small village, then pressed for time. If they have reached that point they should have some time to customize the equipment and some stuff to sell to buy it.over the course of the two bridges, 3 characters failed their saves and went over the edge, and I decided to be nice and give them 2 chances to pass the DC 15 before they fell.
From what I recall our GM gave us some kind of skill check. If I recall correctly it was Climb if we were hugging the planks. We used a rope to make a safe guide on the bridge.
A Reflex save seems very wrong as the first thing to use. It is appropriate to avoid falling if you miss the skill check, but the skills are there exactly for that, being used when you need them.
It is bad design on the author's part making it a save.
It is one of the instances where a skilled character gets to shine and the author removes it.
So the party had a Rope of climbing but didn't use it to my surprise, nor did they tie each other off. To be fair, it was a 10' wide bridge and they had no expectations of falling off. The encounter was 1 reflex save while moving at full speed, of if you take damage to fall of. I made it one to catch yourself and a second to actually fall. They spaced themselves out so they couldn't catch each other, so that option was out.
the second bridge I felt they should have known better, but they did the same thing again. 3 of the players are highly experienced and should have done better.
But, I agree, it's a poorly written encounter, and IMO the actual CR was set above what the party should have been able to deal with, and since both were summoned creatures, there was no treasure as reward.
It's also a sign of something poorly written when there is nothing written into the adventure about what happens after the fall, or how to get back to the party.
|
|
The fun part for us was the other member of my party, with no ranged weapon capable to hurt the Erinyes survived thanks to one of the "useless" spells of our oracle: Obscuring mist.
Most of the time his spells were almost useless besides healing, but in some instances, his odd selection of spells was extremely useful.
The only guy I did know that said: "I have too many feats, they are useless." ...
And the player has a curse: "Prophet". He is capable to say the strangest thing and it resonates with the adventure.