I have a character that I am playing and I'm debating what to take at 8th level for his Class Feat. He is a Human Rogue (Thief) with a Beastmaster dedication
At this point he has:
1 - Twin-Feint
1 - You're Next (from Natural Ambition)
2 - Beastmaster Dedication
4 - Mature Beastmaster Companion
6 - Gang Up
For his 8th level feat, should I take Opportune Backstab -OR- Incredible Beastmaster Companion?
The animal companion is a wolf, so I would go with Nimble advancement, if I go that way.
At 10th level I can't not take Precise Debilitation, so whichever I don't take now, I'll likely take at 12th, but that's 4 levels of adventuring we have to survive.
Any constructive advice is appreciated!
You want both - Opportune Backstab is a huge powerup for a Rouge not afraid of Melee. However your beast acts inside your turn which means your reaction to its attacks is going to be subject to MAP. Ouch.
Incredible companion first. The special maneuver for the wolf is too good to wait. Prone means easy target and action removal unless the target likes being host to a boot party.
I recommend against this combination unless your party will also be supporting your animal. I say this from having my own Rogue w/ Druid MCD (so a step weaker AC, but w/ access to Heal) and my animal struggle immensely against worthy foes and was a drain on my actions just trying to keep it alive (often by sending it out of combat!).
I would have been more effective focused on just being alone and spending those feats on myself (as you can kind of tell already by the awesome feats you'd have to sacrifice in order to keep your animal viable).
*Update* After some consideration, I will likely do Indominable instead of Nimble (my GM will let me take Indominable since the only difference in Megafauna is that advancement) if I go with Incredible Beastmaster Companion
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I recommend against this combination...
Kinda unproductive, don't ya think, given the character is already live in an ongoing campaign? Not every build has to be hyper-optimized and we really don't know if the party is actively supporting the animal or not, which seems like it would be good advice given the circumstances.
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Prone is also doubly good on a rogue because it's flat-footed, it means your wolf is handing you your sneak attacks.
Its unimportant (at least to the rogue) in this case as he has Gang Up.
Once the animal companion gains the advanced maneuver, you might consider retraining Gang Up to maximize the effectiveness of the trip. You'll find you won't be using Gang Up much anymore unless the target cannot be prone.
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Prone is also doubly good on a rogue because it's flat-footed, it means your wolf is handing you your sneak attacks.Its unimportant (at least to the rogue) in this case as he has Gang Up.
Once the animal companion gains the advanced maneuver, you might consider retraining Gang Up to maximize the effectiveness of the trip. You'll find you won't be using Gang Up much anymore unless the target cannot be prone.
Honestly, I'd lean towards retraining out of the archetype instead: Rogues already have more good class feat options than they can possibly take, so making room for archetype feats past level 4 is really tough (In this case, level 12 already has Preparation and Spring From The Shadows as powerful options).
Mind you, this assumes the party has enough melee (without the companion) to keep Gang Up effective.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I recommend against this combination...Kinda unproductive, don't ya think, given the character is already live in an ongoing campaign? Not every build has to be hyper-optimized and we really don't know if the party is actively supporting the animal or not, which seems like it would be good advice given the circumstances.
Thank you. If you don't like that I've decided to play this character, that's fine, but it is beyond the scope of this thread. I'm not going to be retraining out of Beastmaster; it's super RP appropriate. I'm simply looking for advice on how to build the character which I'm going to play in a way that keeps this character as viable as possible.
As for Gang Up, I thought about retraining it, but I like the option for sneak attack for rounds when the wolf has to move to attack (trip is an additional action) or when the wolf is tanking for the sorcerer and I'm helping the champion take down big targets.
As long as you can make use of the positioning and support action of the Animal Companion it's not that sub optimal. The extra body on the battlefield matters for a bunch of things and if it's only absorbing a couple hits beyond that it's already plenty.
I'll reiterate that you have to pick the Animal Companion upgrade feats otherwise it will fall too far behind to remain useful.
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Prone is also doubly good on a rogue because it's flat-footed, it means your wolf is handing you your sneak attacks.Its unimportant (at least to the rogue) in this case as he has Gang Up.
Once the animal companion gains the advanced maneuver, you might consider retraining Gang Up to maximize the effectiveness of the trip. You'll find you won't be using Gang Up much anymore unless the target cannot be prone.
Honestly, I'd lean towards retraining out of the archetype instead: Rogues already have more good class feat options than they can possibly take, so making room for archetype feats past level 4 is really tough (In this case, level 12 already has Preparation and Spring From The Shadows as powerful options).
Mind you, this assumes the party has enough melee (without the companion) to keep Gang Up effective.
First, not retraining Beastmaster. Disagreeing with my choice to go this way is beyond the scope of this build.
Second, I appreciate the links, it makes having a conversation much easier.
Third, I don't think I'd take either of those Feats. Preparation is an action that gives me an extra reaction. Considering I only have You're Next, that's not super helpful to give up an action on my turn for. Even if I had Opportune Backstab, it'd be giving up an attack to get an attack. Spring from the Shadows is nice to get a move and strike with one action. It's like a less flexible version of Skirmish Strike that allows you to get sneak damage if you were hidden. The downside is that, if I don't want to move, it's not helpful. If I am not already hidden it still gives me a move and strike for one action, but it comes at the same level as Bloody Debilitation, which I'd probably use every round. Since Gortle pointed out that reactions on your turn suffer MAP, I've been looking at other things and I think I'd use that feat every turn. Since I've taken Gang Up, I think I've attacked zero times (in melee) without Sneak Attack, so bleed damage seems pretty sweet to add.
As long as you can make use of the positioning and support action of the Animal Companion it's not that sub optimal. The extra body on the battlefield matters for a bunch of things and if it's only absorbing a couple hits beyond that it's already plenty.
I'll reiterate that you have to pick the Animal Companion upgrade feats otherwise it will fall too far behind to remain useful.
Thanks! It seems the general consensus here is that, if you have an animal companion, you should make it as powerful as possible as soon as possible. Also, boosting my companion at this level allows it to keep within 1 AC of the Champion in +1 full plate for defense (with +1 light barding) and 2 points of AC higher than me, which is nothing to sneeze at.
I will go against most people here, pick Opportune Backstab first, when you don't have a reliable reaction, gaining one is one of the biggest power spikes that you can get optimization wise.
The animal companion will be able to wait until lvl 12 to get their upgrades, with heavy barding it will have the same AC as you until you get the +2 rune for armor at lvl 11 and their strikes are still more accurate than your second strike.
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Assuming you are in melee, Opportune Backstab (Rogue 08) is HUGE because it doesn't get your Multiple Attack Penalty (you aren't using it during your turn): Add Preparation (Rogue 12)* to the mix, and you can get three 'no MAP' attacks per round, each potentially doing more damage than your pet is likely to do with both of its attacks (At 12th level, 3d6 weapon + 3d6 Sneak Attack + 2d6 Debilitation + 5 Dex + 2 Specialization = 8d6+7 plus any property runes you might have, versus 2d8+7 for an incredible wolf bite**).
Rogue guide / discussion thread: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs435rq?Tarondors-Guide-to-the-Pathfinder-Second
*In the interest of full disclosure, I never actually took Preparation on my own Rogue due to the multitude of other options, but I almost certainly should have.
**Not an expert on companions, but I'm seeing 1d8+2 base damage, +1d8+1 at 'Mature' and +1+3 at 'Incredible' for a total of 2d8+7 damage.