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I've been meh with the run on the 2E era APs. Not that they don't have interesting themes. But at the end of the adventure, none of them seem to really impact the larger world. Extinction Curse was close, but you are fighting to preserve the status quo in a BIG WAY.
1E APs just had bigger stakes. Break nations, kill/make new gods, explore new regions, establish new kings/queens, etc.
I know there was a bit of a cool down after the major world shake ups post 1E, but it seems the AP team is holding back on making massive metaplot/world shifting changes in the 2E meta setting.
I say, it's time to go big or go home!
We need to have our round 2 with Tar Baphon and put him in the ground finally. There is a massive unknown waiting for us in Arcadia. If I remember, there are a few major factions in Tian Xia waiting to go to war. And hey, we have 2 Runelords still kicking around...and the Aboleths are just waiting there to get all mucky and godlike with.
I AM however looking forward to Strength of Thousands. The school theme is...okay. But actually getting to kick the tires in a non-colony nation in the Mwangi Expanse is something I'm 100% down for.
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I mean while I'm less familiar with Agents of Edgewatch, the first two APs have the potential repercussions of:
The potential 'bad': Much of Ravounel, Isger, Katapesh, and a portion of the Mwangi Expanse become wastelands regularly devastated by elemental fury and iconic attacks. OR An evil slave-trading organization becomes one of the most influential groups in the inner sea, with a pet great wyrm and controlled devastation allow them to extort multiple governments. OR One of the most powerful dragons on the planet becomes a divinely-infused quasi-avatar of the god of Destruction.
(or multiple combinations of the above).
The 'bad': The entire Starstone Isle, arguably the hub of the Inner Sea, is destroyed and sinks into the ocean.
I actually don't have a problem with APs of varying levels of 'world-spanning stakes'. I think a mix is healthy, and am quite excited for 3-book APs to become more common - not every AP's story really fits 6 whole chapters without feeling overly stretched-out. But Even from the jump there are some very big stakes with the 2E APs they've done
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A lot of the PF1 APs where also largely about preserving the status quo, or at most making slight changes to how things work. There were of course some major exceptions, as I assume there will be for 2e eventually, but there's more than a couple 1st edition APs where the party being completely successful means most ordinary people in the area might never even know that anything happened.
It was also said in the past that the campaign setting skills change (gradually or radically) over the lifetime of an edition. That way you can jump in anytime without having to read up on an extensive Previously on... in addition to the main world guide. And you avoid making setting books partially or completely obsolete.
Since the APs were mostly about preserving the status quo, you could simply assume the respective PCs were successful and still progress the timeline without updating the books. I think that may be part of it.
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Many of the 1st edition APs have smaller stakes. For instance, Hell's Rebels is about freeing one part of Cheliax from the nation. Jade Regent is about a nation on the other side of the world. Hell's Vengeance is about maintaining the status quo and the government of Cheliax. That doesn't lessen the impact of any of those APs, even as APs like Reign of Winter and Wrath of the Righteous are about saving the world itself. Nor does it lessen the value of those APs.
Not every quest needs to be about saving the world. Sometimes, saving one person is all that's needed.
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Not to mention that 2E is fairly young and is itself an updated campaign taking into account all the world-changing events of the catalog of APs. So, the designers might want to let things "cool off" a bit before they start creating more Earth-shattering events that would nullify material they just printed in Lost Omens over the past year and a half.
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What's an example of a PF1 AP that does the sort of stakes you're looking for.
I will note, at this point in PF1's lifespan the following adventure paths have concluded: Council of Thieves, Kingmaker, Serpent's Skull; Carrion Crown just kicking off and Jade Regent having been solicited.
There's surely metaplot stuff coming down the pipe, but I don't know if we're there yet.
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Stakes need to be sharper, not higher!
While sharp stakes make it easier to impale things, dull stakes cause more damage/pain. Splintering stakes are the way to go, I would say.
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I remember the outcry among the community when one of the last AP's in Pathfinder (1) concluded with what could be summed up to "you achieved that not much has changed and your characters died doing so".
On the one hand, I get why Paizo doesn't want to change the setting in major ways every six months. On the other hand, gods don't directly interfere with Golarion, change does (usually) take time, and so on.
Coming back to 2e AP's:
- Age of Ashes: seemed pretty high stakes to me (I didn't read it, I could still play it one day)
- Extinction Curse: Medium-high stakes I think. The Isles of Kortos is inhabited by a large number of people, it's a major trade point and all that.
- Agents of Edgewatch: I don't know, to be honest. I wasn't that interested in this particular AP.
- Abomination Vaults: Only going to level 10/11 makes it hard to judge, also it's a dungeon crawl and not completely out yet.
All told, I'm okay with the height of stakes so far.
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I for one am tired of most everything in entertainment being such high stakes. When every other comic book movie is a succeed-or-the-world-ends scenario, they become rote, or worse, boring. I'll take focused and localized every time, thankyouverymuch.
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Looking at the OP, I'm suddenly interested in seeing new stuff as well. I don't know if I'd call it "Higher Stakes", but certainly I think there could be APs whose point is the establishment of a new thing, not just the maintenance of status quo/ending of a threat to sq.
PF1 APs of course mostly trended towards SQ I think, but there were some exceptions. Crimson Throne, Return of the Runelords, Tyrant's Grasp, Wrath of the Righteous, Ironfang Invasion, War for the Crown, Hells Rebels, Iron Gods, Jade Regent, and of course Kingmaker all had as their end state either a new nation, a new ruler, or a new deity. Iron Gods comes closest to being SQ, but the others have a distinct before and after state on the setting that people outside the AP itself will notice (Hells Vengeance also qualifies as this, but largely is about reassertion of the SQ).
For PF2, Agents of Edgewatch comes closest to that with the establishment of Edgewatch itself. It could easily have gone to world changing, or at the very least quite noticeable on the world stage, but stops short.
Anyways, perhaps if we get a Mana Wastes AP, something interesting will happen there. I feel like we're heading in that direction.
One issue is that most of the PF2 APs are about the Island of Kortos, which we have been told for 11 years in PF1 is literally the most important place in the world, we just hardly ever visited it in PF1 APs.
So there's some catching up to do there, because we've spent so much time in Varisia and Cheliax.
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I for one am tired of most everything in entertainment being such high stakes. When every other comic book movie is a succeed-or-the-world-ends scenario, they become rote, or worse, boring.
Agreed. Its the escalation curve that most ongoing narratives inevitably encounter which leads to their cancellation. The author has to keep coming up with bigger challenges for the heroes. Eventually, when you have saved the entire universe, people lose interest when the following "episode" is the heroes saving a cat from a tree.
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I think we could do with an AP where the stakes, or consequences of failure, are bad, but maybe not immediately obvious. For instance, if the AP was about re-orienting the politics of the EYe of Dread region, helping refugees, setting up a new watch on former Lastwall, and so forth it's clear that the work needs doing, but what happens if it's done poorly will take some time to play out. This might also be a good one for killing Razmir.
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The two big hanging threads that portend bad things are "the Whispering Tyrant" does a thing and "Something happens on the Nex/Geb front". I assume they're going to get to those eventually. But you also don't want to cheapen those with the stuff you do beforehand.
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The two big hanging threads that portend bad things are "the Whispering Tyrant" does a thing and "Something happens on the Nex/Geb front". I assume they're going to get to those eventually. But you also don't want to cheapen those with the stuff you do beforehand.
Related, anyone else a bit surprised that we're going after the Gray Gardeners in the adventure line and not an AP? I don't exactly mind having the first high level adventure go after such interesting stakes, nor am I complaining that we're finally going to Galt, but I would have expected it to be a bigger product covering more levels.
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The two big hanging threads that portend bad things are "the Whispering Tyrant" does a thing and "Something happens on the Nex/Geb front". I assume they're going to get to those eventually. But you also don't want to cheapen those with the stuff you do beforehand.Related, anyone else a bit surprised that we're going after the Gray Gardeners in the adventure line and not an AP? I don't exactly mind having the first high level adventure go after such interesting stakes, nor am I complaining that we're finally going to Galt, but I would have expected it to be a bigger product covering more levels.
Adventure Paths are about themes, and "Fight the Gray Gardeners and improve things in Galt" isn't a theme. We also don't know that this will spell the end of the Gray Gardeners or the Final Blades.
"Go visit an under-explored area of the setting" is better suited for a Standalone Adventure, sure enough.
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The Whispering Tyrant is such a major villain and has such a lengthy history, I doubt they’ll want to vanquish him anytime soon. He can be the source of waay too many machinations
It's threading a needle, because you can't just do "Tyrant's Grasp" again, and you can't vanquish him completely yet, but if he just sits there for years and years and doesn't threaten his neighbors directly that's weird too.
It's possible the Nex/Geb story and the Tar-Baphon story are intertwined because the unifying thread is "Arazni has it out for 2/3 of the people previously mentioned in this sentence" and she's a fascinating character they need to do more with.
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It's threading a needle, because you can't just do "Tyrant's Grasp" again, and you can't vanquish him completely yet, but if he just sits there for years and years and doesn't threaten his neighbors directly that's weird too.
It's possible the Nex/Geb story and the Tar-Baphon story are intertwined because the unifying thread is "Arazni has it out for 2/3 of the people previously mentioned in this sentence" and she's a fascinating character they need to do more with.
Easy answer, a whispering way AP where you play people who are under his rule.
Although I would rather that be the story for a new Runelords AP, members of new thassilon rather than fighting against a runelord.
I think the Tyrant's right hand is invading x country, and is the final foe is a perfectly fine Tyrant acting in the world AP without having to fight the Tyrant, just knocking away his powerful subordinates and defences are BIG, or stopping a great army he has, so that he himself will have to start to act again. Think Rise to Return of the Runelords, hell that's effectively a 3 AP arc! over the course of 10 years, if a Tar-Baphon inspired AP happens in 2022, and 2025, with the AP to actually defeat the Tyrant in 2028 he'll FEEL active and impacting on the setting, without needing to have him be unbeatable by the players of the AP at any point.
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I had this idea, based on a great quote of the awesome JSA : The Golden Age Elsewhere comic : "The devil hovers above me in the body of a god."
What if Aroden's corpse is somewhere out there? Next to becoming a deity, what better new plan for the Tyrant than taking over the body of his divine enemy ?
I would love an AP based on the PCs trying to thwart the Tyrant's minions in their attempts to get the corpse, only to end up facing his consciousness animating Aroden's body.
I think there are many ways to involve the Tyrant in an AP without him becoming the BBEG to destroy forever.
Also, if the Tyrant is definitely taken out of the picture, a new global threat will need to emerge and take up his place in the Inner Sea region, as he did for the Worldwound.
The main problem I would see with introducing Aroden's corpse is that somebody might do an autopsy on it (or even just look at it carefully) and gain more information than anyone at Paizo is ready to give out about Aroden's fate.
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The two big hanging threads that portend bad things are "the Whispering Tyrant" does a thing and "Something happens on the Nex/Geb front". I assume they're going to get to those eventually. But you also don't want to cheapen those with the stuff you do beforehand.Related, anyone else a bit surprised that we're going after the Gray Gardeners in the adventure line and not an AP? I don't exactly mind having the first high level adventure go after such interesting stakes, nor am I complaining that we're finally going to Galt, but I would have expected it to be a bigger product covering more levels.Adventure Paths are about themes, and "Fight the Gray Gardeners and improve things in Galt" isn't a theme. We also don't know that this will spell the end of the Gray Gardeners or the Final Blades.
"Go visit an under-explored area of the setting" is better suited for a Standalone Adventure, sure enough.
Are you suggesting that there's no possible theme they could have used with Galt as a backdrop? That in fact the adventure won't have a theme of its own?
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Are you suggesting that there's no possible theme they could have used with Galt as a backdrop? That in fact the adventure won't have a theme of its own?Adventure Paths are about themes, and "Fight the Gray Gardeners and improve things in Galt" isn't a theme. We also don't know that this will spell the end of the Gray Gardeners or the Final Blades.
"Go visit an under-explored area of the setting" is better suited for a Standalone Adventure, sure enough.
No, I'm saying I'm not surprised that the next Galt adventure is a Standalone Adventure and not part of an Adventure Path.
I'm guessing that the we're not getting a AP set in Galt in the near future because it would be too similar to previous APs "War for the Crown" and "Hell's Rebels". Also, folks at Paizo seem interested in exploring other areas besides Avistan.
I'm curious to see if the "Night of Gray Death" changes the status quo of Galt. I think it will despite that not being typical for Standalone Adventures or Pathfinder Modules, because it's been foreshadowed elsewhere. If that is the goal, then it's more efficientto start as high-level PCs than spend 15+ levels building up to it.
I’m not so sure we can say folks at Paizo want to get away from Avistan when the majority of AP content we’ve had in 2e so far has focused on it.
Believe me, I’d love if you’re right, but I fully expect to see more Avistani stuff before they touch Arcadia.
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No, I'm saying I'm not surprised that the next Galt adventure is a Standalone Adventure and not part of an Adventure Path.Are you suggesting that there's no possible theme they could have used with Galt as a backdrop? That in fact the adventure won't have a theme of its own?Adventure Paths are about themes, and "Fight the Gray Gardeners and improve things in Galt" isn't a theme. We also don't know that this will spell the end of the Gray Gardeners or the Final Blades.
"Go visit an under-explored area of the setting" is better suited for a Standalone Adventure, sure enough.
Then why make the point "Adventure Paths are about themes, and "Fight the Gray Gardeners and improve things in Galt" isn't a theme" if you genuinely think the adventure will have an overarching theme beyond "Fight the Gray Gardeners and improve things in Galt"?
I'm curious to see if the "Night of Gray Death" changes the status quo of Galt. I think it will despite that not being typical for Standalone Adventures or Pathfinder Modules, because it's been foreshadowed elsewhere. If that is the goal, then it's more efficientto start as high-level PCs than spend 15+ levels building up to it.
They've dropped hints here and there that there's more going on behind the Gray Gardeners than the obvious. One of the developers mentioned a Conqueror Worm as one possibility, but obviously wasn't committing to it. With that in mind, I would expect that we'd need those 15+ levels to figure out what's going on, link up with the local pathfinder lodge and revolutionary council to see what can be saved, and eliminate its puppets one by one until you finally confront it when it is no longer in a position to jump away.
So, more like Crimson Throne than the other two you mention.
If there's a permanent shift in the status quo, I would imagine Night is going to reveal that something is going, possibly even what.
But, hell. Even if it was a retread of WftC or HR, WftC was in 2018. HR in 2015. The absolute earliest any Galt AP would be in 2022.
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Then why make the point "Adventure Paths are about themes, and "Fight the Gray Gardeners and improve things in Galt" isn't a theme" if you genuinely think the adventure will have an overarching theme beyond "Fight the Gray Gardeners and improve things in Galt"?Adventure Paths are about themes, and "Fight the Gray Gardeners and improve things in Galt" isn't a theme. We also don't know that this will spell the end of the Gray Gardeners or the Final Blades. "Go visit an under-explored area of the setting" is better suited for a Standalone Adventure, sure enough.Are you suggesting that there's no possible theme they could have used with Galt as a backdrop? That in fact the adventure won't have a theme of its own?No, I'm saying I'm not surprised that the next Galt adventure is a Standalone Adventure and not part of an Adventure Path.
I'm guessing that the we're not getting a AP set in Galt in the near future because it would be too similar to previous APs "War for the Crown" and "Hell's Rebels". Also, folks at Paizo seem interested in exploring other areas besides Avistan.
I never said that "Night of Gray Death" will have any kind of overarching theme beyond fighting Gray Gardeners for the betterment of Galt, so I don't genuinely think that. I think it may pick up plotlines introduced in Lost Omens Legends, but that's it.
As for the conqueror worm thing, I remember promotional flash fiction that had wormy stuff happening in Cheliax, not Galt.
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So you are saying that the adventure won't have a theme of its own. Why did you say no in response then?
Are you suggesting that there's no possible theme they could have used with Galt as a backdrop? That in fact the adventure won't have a theme of its own?No
And, further, I still don't see why it is a logical assumption that they'd go straight to the Gray Gardeners and not explore the Conqueror Worm or whatever else they decide to make the region's story about. Which is unrelated to the flash fiction by the way; I don't think that author works directly for Paizo, though they clearly like her writing.
You said you weren't surprised they made this a high level adventure with no preliminary adventures in the region, saying that attacking the Gardeners has no theme and implying that an AP based on that as a goal would have no theme either, so it would not be logical to expect an AP instead of a high level adventure as the entry point. I really don't see how you came to that conclusion.
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So you are saying that the adventure won't have a theme of its own. Why did you say no in response then?
Are you suggesting that there's no possible theme they could have used with Galt as a backdrop? That in fact the adventure won't have a theme of its own?No
You quite obviously truncated that quote to make it seem like I said something completely different from what I wrote. Stop putting words in my mouth and claiming I've made arguments I haven't.
If you're still don't understand my point, here's the quote from James Jacbos that made me not suprised that Galt is getting a Standalone Adventure but no announced AP.
People keep trying to say "Galt" as a theme. A location is not a theme. A location can HAVE a theme, but it is not a theme.
If by "Galt" folks are actually asking for a rebellion themed adventure path, or a post-apocalyptic themed adventure path, or a infiltration/spy themed adventure path, or anything else like that, letting us know that is more helpful as for finding out what themes folks are looking for.
We've always aimed to set most of our Adventure Paths in regions that we haven't explored. Sometimes, particularly at the launch of a systme, we'll spend 2 or 3 or 4 volumes in a region that hadn't been previously explored in the Adventure Path line, since having an increasingly familiar place to explore is important when the rules you are using to do that exploration AREN'T familiar, but even then we aim to do different themes in those regions.
We haven't set an Adventure Path or a stand-alone module in Galt yet. That means that we're increasingly likely to set something there in the future. It doesn't hard-code a "Galt" theme into that adventure though, since, again, locations aren't themes.
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folks at Paizo seem interested in exploring other areas besides AvistanAre we considering Kortos to be part of Garund then? Or maybe neither? The three most recent APs have all been there
TBH Kortos is the center of the world (or at least of the Inner Sea region) and they never really explored it in PF1. So I consider the APs set there as giving the place its proper due before getting away to less explored shores.
Fists of the Ruby Phoenix and Strength of Thousands are not set in Avistan AFAIK.
I would be pretty surprised they keep on focusing on places already explored when both devs and customers have expressed a strong interest in new locations.
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To be honest, there are quite a few areas that have NEVER been touched in an AP. I mean, an AP set in the Mana Waste (and introducing 2nd ed. firearm rules) would be fantastic to see, as would an AP in Andoran, Jalmeray, or the Five Kings Mountains. The following ideas are given freely with no claims to the ideas provided within and waiving any legal right to the stories within.
Andoran would be fantastic to see a story where the PCs are fighting a plot to overthrow the democratically-elected government - perhaps it's a Chelish plot to punish Andoran for its role in Hell's Vengeance (or even an attempt by something else to create the illusion of Chelish involvement to create a war between the two nations, perhaps masterminded by an Blue Great Wyrm. (We need to have more APs where dragons are masterminding the events. They are creatures of awe and fear, and having one be manipulating events all along... that is something that would be enjoyable to see!)
Jalmeray could start out as a trading expedition that turns bad after people start being murdered. As the PCs start investigating, they learn of the political machinations on the island which include those who are interested in the outside world, and those who would isolate the kingdom at all costs, while the political situation in Geb threatens to also create unrest in the island kingdom.
With the Five Kings Mountains, we could learn about Dwarven culture and deal with a threat to the region due to a threat from the Darklands emerging from the ruins of the Dwarven city of Jernashall, or possibly start there as part of a dwarven expedition to try and retake the Sky Citadel of Jormurdun found in the northwest of the former Worldwound's Frostmire region.
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While that is true, I think what James is saying is that first there needs to be a theme, then they can decide on an appropriate host location. Unless you have a theme in mind for a specific locale, they don't want to feel "forced" to have to create an appropriate theme just because someone wants it to occur in Galt (or wherever).
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Why I started requesting a Galtan AP by only saying "GALT".
When I started it everyone would post these great, long, well thought out posts about what they thought an adventure path set in a particular region should have.
At the time I was juggling two kids and a dog while figuring out how to stay at home dad and so I had limited time but still wanted to put my two cents into the ring, and having grown up with French exchange students visiting every summer I always had an affinity for Galt because of the similarities to the French revolution. So I just started putting it in all caps Braveheart style so it wouldn't get lost in all the other great posts.
I guess it became a thing.
Thank you for setting an adventure in Galt, you really made my day!
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So you are saying that the adventure won't have a theme of its own. Why did you say no in response then?
Are you suggesting that there's no possible theme they could have used with Galt as a backdrop? That in fact the adventure won't have a theme of its own?NoYou quite obviously truncated that quote to make it seem like I said something completely different from what I wrote. Stop putting words in my mouth and claiming I've made arguments I haven't.
If you're still don't understand my point, here's the quote from James Jacbos that made me not suprised that Galt is getting a Standalone Adventure but no announced AP.
I'm not trying to twist your words or challenge your opinion; I'm trying to understand your logic. I'm struggling to understand your points, in part because you keep repeating stuff I was taking as a given as if I had never considered them. I started that thread you pulled James's quote from; I had already assumed anything that actually takes us into Galt would have more to it than just "Galt" when I expressed surprise that they were going in with an Adventure instead of an AP.
In fact, I still don't really see how that led you to the conclusion you reached, if I'm being honest. From my perspective, it is like saying "The sky is blue, and that is why the Fire Nation attacked." I don't see a trigger that leads to the conclusion, since what you are saying is a trigger is the baseline assumption of anything they'd write, that they're going to Galt to explore a particular theme, not just to go there.
At the risk of putting words into your mouth again, is this quote more to the point?
I'm guessing that the we're not getting a AP set in Galt in the near future because it would be too similar to previous APs "War for the Crown" and "Hell's Rebels". Also, folks at Paizo seem interested in exploring other areas besides Avistan.
I assumed you were talking about the plot and structure of a potential AP, but are you talking about potential thematic elements here?
To be honest, a Galt campaign could go the opposite route. Rather than trying to overthrow the Grey Gardeners or the like, a Galt campaign could be about Revolutionaries who are in fact evil PCs who are seeking to further their own ambitions and doing so by becoming essential to the Gardeners. It doesn't need to be QUITE as evil as the Hell's Vengeance campaign (as in Neutral characters could actually be potentially possible in the campaign) but still go darker than most other APs have been.
One of the benefits of a campaign with Galt could be that rather than a plot with high stakes, this one is about furthering the PCs own power and ensuring the "stability" of the existing power structure in Galt. And there could even be geopolitical aspects (such as Taldor or Andoran being involved in the anti-Grey Gardener plots).
Can this Galt talk maybe go in its own thread?
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The Whispering Tyrant is such a major villain and has such a lengthy history, I doubt they’ll want to vanquish him anytime soon. He can be the source of waay too many machinations
A person with no metaphysical relevance whatsoever and worldly ambitions that haven't even encompassed a continent should not be a major villain in a high fantasy setting.
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Can this Galt talk maybe go in its own thread?
Mr. Jacobs commented on adventures having themes. So I was offering ideas along that line - plothooks from which to build adventures upon. With Galt, I was discussing ways that an adventure built there would vary from expected norms. Do note, there are far better ways to get discussions to go onto tangents than yelling at people having an actual reasonable discussion - you easily could have sidetracked folk by taking an element of that discussion and running with that away from the Galt discussion and it would have worked far better. (My handle was chosen for a reason. I'm the queen of going off on tangents.)
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To be honest, a Galt campaign could go the opposite route. Rather than trying to overthrow the Grey Gardeners or the like, a Galt campaign could be about Revolutionaries who are in fact evil PCs who are seeking to further their own ambitions and doing so by becoming essential to the Gardeners. It doesn't need to be QUITE as evil as the Hell's Vengeance campaign (as in Neutral characters could actually be potentially possible in the campaign) but still go darker than most other APs have been.
I don’t think at this time, Paizo is going to touch any theme that even remotely resembles civil insurrection with a 10 foot pole. I want to say “especially if the ‘reformers’ are evil” but really not iteration seems navigable.
That would be a good spin on the higher stakes OP mentioned though, as you’d be building rather than maintaining. I just think it would be too easy to be badly handled. Same with going with the obvious themes of Andorran. I could see them safely used as a power against, say, Katapesh, but we just went there in AoA, so I’d expect at least a couple more years before we do that.
Actually Andorran and Absalom seeing the new power vacuum in the salve trade post AoA might genuinely be interesting in a couple years, but that seems more appropriate for an Adventure due to its smaller scope.