APs need higher stakes!


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Scarab Sages

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TwilightKnight wrote:
NECR0G1ANT wrote:
folks at Paizo seem interested in exploring other areas besides Avistan
Are we considering Kortos to be part of Garund then? Or maybe neither? The three most recent APs have all been there

While it may be contentious, I consider Kortos to not be part of Avistan or Garund. Kortos was formed when Aroden lifted it from the sea floor (so it wasn't orginially part of either continent), no nation form either continent ever conquered it, and its predominant human populations are Taldan, Garundi, and Kelish. Hermea is similar. Maybe I'm wrong and the City of Lost Omens will establish it's part of Avistan.

By that definition, no 2E AP has taken entirely within Avistan. Obviously when people say they want more content from outside Avistan, they may instead mean things like Garund, Arcadia, or Tian Xia, parts of the setting that are less European.


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James Jacobs has stated in his thread that the Isle of Kortos is part of Avistan.


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Fumarole wrote:
James Jacobs has stated in his thread that the Isle of Kortos is part of Avistan.

It would have been out of place to comment on his answer in his thread, but that answer does make a lot of sense. How many Mediterranean islands are considered to be part of Africa? As best I can remember, every significant island in the Mediterranean is considered to be part of Europe.

Scarab Sages

Fumarole wrote:
James Jacobs has stated in his thread that the Isle of Kortos is part of Avistan.

I know, I was the one who asked him that. I didn't find his reasoning to be convincing.

James Jacobs wrote:
NECR0G1ANT wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Is the Starstone Isle part of either Avistan or Garund? Or neither?
It's part of Avistan.

What makes it part of Avistan as opposed to Garund or being it's own thing?

An arbitrary decision I just made in the previous post after never having considered the question in the first place, since I've long looked at the area simply as the Inner Sea region.

I made that decision because Avistan is the smallest of all the continents, so giving it Kortos seems only fair.

In the grand scheme of things, though, it doesn't matter since "Avistan" and "Garund" aren't nations; they're continents.

Anyhow, this is getting OT from APs.

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If you want a more scientific answer, then Kortos was risen by Aroden from a southern portion of the Avistani continental plate.

That said, as I said before, it doesn't matter if Kortos is part of a continent, and in fact having it be outside being included in any single continent does make sense in tying it in to its role as the "city at the center of the world". But since we don't really use the continents, in print, as organizational tools to present the Inner Sea content, it's not a big deal if you want to adjust things in your game.

To get back on topic, maybe this suggests an Adventure Path where a cartographer's guild is attempting to definitively map out the continent of Garund or Avistan and hires the PCs to make maps of the more difficult to explore fringes of either or, and then we can build in to that thing an element where the PCs themselves get to help determine where the Isle of Kortos might lie.


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James Jacobs wrote:
To get back on topic, maybe this suggests an Adventure Path where a cartographer's guild is attempting to definitively map out the continent of Garund or Avistan and hires the PCs to make maps of the more difficult to explore fringes of either or, and then we can build in to that thing an element where the PCs themselves get to help determine where the Isle of Kortos might lie.

Every adventure has to be named "Here be X"

Book 1 "Here be Ghouls"
Book 2 "Here be Demons"
Book 3 "Here be Dragons"

Actually, looking back its amusing, but perhaps not evocative enough for the title of an Adventure Path volume.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:

If you want a more scientific answer, then Kortos was risen by Aroden from a southern portion of the Avistani continental plate.

That said, as I said before, it doesn't matter if Kortos is part of a continent, and in fact having it be outside being included in any single continent does make sense in tying it in to its role as the "city at the center of the world". But since we don't really use the continents, in print, as organizational tools to present the Inner Sea content, it's not a big deal if you want to adjust things in your game.

To get back on topic, maybe this suggests an Adventure Path where a cartographer's guild is attempting to definitively map out the continent of Garund or Avistan and hires the PCs to make maps of the more difficult to explore fringes of either or, and then we can build in to that thing an element where the PCs themselves get to help determine where the Isle of Kortos might lie.

I can easily picture the power plays around this. Mont Saint Michel in France has been claimed for a long time by both Normandy and Brittany. I can only imagine how high the tempers might have risen if it was the Starstone's resting place.


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I feel like "fewer adventures in Avistan" is basically asking for two things:
1)Take us to places and show us things that we have not seen before (some of which might even be in Avistan).

2) Reflect cultures and people who are less recognizable as based on European or U.S. cultures and more people who are recognizable as based on the rest of the real world.

But all the adventures on Kortos are a reflection of "Absalom is very important" combined with "we very rarely went there in the first 10 years of APs."


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Tangent101 wrote:

To be honest, a Galt campaign could go the opposite route. Rather than trying to overthrow the Grey Gardeners or the like, a Galt campaign could be about Revolutionaries who are in fact evil PCs who are seeking to further their own ambitions and doing so by becoming essential to the Gardeners. It doesn't need to be QUITE as evil as the Hell's Vengeance campaign (as in Neutral characters could actually be potentially possible in the campaign) but still go darker than most other APs have been.

One of the benefits of a campaign with Galt could be that rather than a plot with high stakes, this one is about furthering the PCs own power and ensuring the "stability" of the existing power structure in Galt. And there could even be geopolitical aspects (such as Taldor or Andoran being involved in the anti-Grey Gardener plots).

It looks like "Overthrow the Grey Gardeners" is going to be the point of the upcoming standalone adventure "Night of the Gray Death"; I think having a Galt AP based on rebuilding the nation after the decades of bloodshed, trying to shape its future from the ground up into one based on actual principle of justice, and possibly bringing about said justice by finally shattering the final blades would be a more likely plot.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Iron Gods spoiler:
Casandalee isn't written as ascending to godhood in the actual module. (All that happens is you prevent Unity from doing so). But having Casandalee take her place seemed to be a common choice for players in how they ran the AP, was popular on the boards, and presumably Paizo ran with that in their "official" ending.

Agents of Edgewatch spoiler:
Likewise with Agents of Edgewatch, if you just go by the book, the final villains' plan is just becoming Primarch, ie, a change of government in Absalom. But as she is doing this as part of a divine mandate from Norgorber, a popular choice on the boards is having her steal Absalom, and moving it into the shadow realms for the final book. I'd like to hope that Paizo go with this, as it's much more fun. So in terms of stakes, the PCs are returning the entire city back to our world.


The canonical endings for APs is generally the one which opens up the most potential stories in the future after the AP. So things like "All of Molthune is destroyed" are rarely going to be the canon because that means you can't tell stories about Molthune anymore.

Lastwall being the exception, obviously, since the whole point of Lastwall was "Watch the Whispering Tyrant's prison to see he doesn't get out", so one he gets out there doesn't really need to be a Lastwall anymore.


While I personally am not that impressed by the recent PF2e AP's, it has neither to do with the system or the stakes.

In terms of quality, the APs are definitely there. They just don't appeal to me.

I do appreciate having a mix of different levels of stakes. Honestly, having even lower stakes in some A0s would be nice.

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