About the scarcity of Focus Spells

[Megistone]

Let me start saying that I love Focus Spells and how they are implemented in PF2: a farily powerful, character-defining power that you can use in most fights.
The thing about them that I have been asking myself many times is this: why so few options? Don't get me wrong, the actual number of different Focus Spells is quite large, but each individual character won't probably have more than a few available. In my opinion, it would really add to the game experience if, even at low level, you could spend your focus point on more than a single ability.

Let's see how the core classes fare in regard of choice breadth.
Monk, Champion and Ranger only have the option of learning Focus Spells via Class Feats; since they aren't classes based on spellcasting, I think that they are ok.
Barring multiclassing, Wizards can only ever have 2 different Focus Spells, with a single extra option gained through Feat. Sorcerers are limited at 3. Druids and Bards have a baseline of 1-2, but can get a few more with Class Feats. Clerics can actually get more Domains (and thus Focus Spells) if they keep spending Feats.
Outside of the CRB, Witches get 1 free and can get more with Feats (Lessons, but not only); Oracles get 3, with the option of learning up to 3 more.

Now, I have always felt that expecially what is given as baseline, is quite limited. For several levels, as an Angelic Sorcerer, your only Focus use is a boost to Heal spells. As a Conjurer Wizard, you can only boost a summoning spell.
When you gain levels, your options expand a little (usually at the cost of Class Feats), but I still feel that a nice game mechanic is underused: the same Wizard at level 20 is still just boosting their summons, or maybe they took the option for a short-range teleport. As a Witch, you can never have more than a single Hex Cantrip.
Compare that to the wide breadth of regular spells available, even to spontaneous casters.

Maybe gaining a single extra spell as an option is balanced against other Class Feats, but I can't stop thinking that giving at least a couple different Focus Spells (per step) to each bloodline, magic school or domain really wouldn't hurt.
What do you think?

[SuperBidi]

I mostly agree.
Focus Spells are limited both in number that you can know but also in number you can choose from.
Still, before expanding the number that you can know, I would love to start by expanding the number you can choose from. Giving the choice between 2 focus spells at first level for Wizards and Sorcerers, for example, and also more choices at higher levels, would be great. I really think there's a lack of good low level feats for Wizard/Sorcerer, being able to gain extra Focus Spells/Focus Points would be very nice.

[Evilgm]

The game is a year and a half old, with only a year and a half worth of releases. Every Focus Spell printed meant something else wasn't printed, and vice versa. More options will be printed as time passes. Undoubtedly this will include more access to Focus spells as its obvious design space.

[beowulf99]

Whenever I have a thought like this about a mechanic "new" to Pathfinder 2, I always have to remember that PF2 is still a young system really.

Before the APG the Ranger had No options for focus spells. Now the only CRB classes without focus options in their chassis are what, the Fighter and Barbarian? And I could easily see the Skald coming back as a sort of Hybrid.

I guess my point is that there is a lack of "current" options for Focus Spells currently, but that will be addressed naturally as more content gets released. Expanded bloodlines for Sorcerer's, new Ki Spells for Monk, maybe even a the return of the Skald as a Barbarian Instinct that grants access to "Rage Focus" spells. There is certainly enough room left for tons of new options.

[dmerceless]

SuperBidi wrote:

I mostly agree.

Focus Spells are limited both in number that you can know but also in number you can choose from.
Still, before expanding the number that you can know, I would love to start by expanding the number you can choose from. Giving the choice between 2 focus spells at first level for Wizards and Sorcerers, for example, and also more choices at higher levels, would be great. I really think there's a lack of good low level feats for Wizard/Sorcerer, being able to gain extra Focus Spells/Focus Points would be very nice.

This would also help certain characters who only have one choice of initial Focus Spell and it's very situational or almost useless ahem Draconic and Demonic Sorcerers.

[Schreckstoff]

so long as you're not completely overwhelmed at every level because of a smattering of possible choices I'd be all for it.
There's sadly no easy way to lock them behind an extra hurdle like archetypes are, which you have to actively look for to get overwhelmed by.

[Megistone]

I know the game is rather young, and new options are constantly added to it.
I would be happy, of course, if we got an extra Focus Spell option to choose from when we select a magic school, a bloodline, a domain etc.
The fact would remain that a Wizard, for example, would be stuck for at least 7 levels with its focus point, and only a single way to spend it.

[HumbleGamer]

In my opinion, mostly depends on what the focus spells are meant to be for that specific class.

For example, let's take the ranger or the champion class attack routine:

Both classes will probably hit lvl 8 being able to perform a single attack

- A ranger will perform Twin takedown or Hunted Shot
- A champion will perform a normal strike ( whether it's ranged or melee )

Now, a ranger might rely on gravity weapon, which is just a flat buff to its damage.

A champion would probably rely on lay on hand.
-He won't use neither light of revelation, because he might suddenly be out of focus if a combat occour.

-He won't also use sun blade, because its spell attack will be a joke, the action required would be too much and its damage would be too low. Not to say that would be wasting a lay on hand use.

He might consider to use some Domain spell ( like the City Domain ) for out of combat purposes, because of its versatility ( but would require a lvl 1 feat as well as a lvl 8 feat ), but what a champion would probably do is to increase its focus reserve to 2 in order to take the lvl 10 devoted focus spell, which will give him 2 uses of lay on hand per combat.

He will probably never use its other focus spells, and to improve its focus pool he will probably go for a lvl 4 focus spells ( light of revelation or sun blade ), because the domain initate won't give ( correct me if I am wrong, but also the pathbuilder works this way ) an extra focus point, but just an initial focus pool, which the champion already has.

All of this just to say that some classes need focus to fill their combat patterns more than others, in order to make combats slightly more interesting for them.

...

Casters like wizard or sorcerer, on the other hand, would be instead able to deliver different attacks, depends the situation ( different damage cantrips as well as different spells ), even without the need for focus spells, but having focus spells will simply expand their versatility.

Wizard and sorcerer are in a very good spot because 90% of their focus spells require 1 action ( mostly verbal ) or a reaction.

What I could agree is to give the wizard a refocus feat like any other spellcaster.

[Staffan Johansson]

I like the concept of focus spells, but I wish the implementation had been more consistent.

For example, I'm playing an Elemental sorcerer who just hit 10th level. I've been very happy with Elemental Toss so far — it's not a game-winner, but being a single action for a chance at solid damage is nice. And now I've gotten Elemental Blast as well, which is like an extra spell one level below max once per day plus once per encounter — twice per encounter at level 12 when I get two focus points back instead of one.

The paladin, on the other hand, has three focus spells. There is, of course, Lay on Hands, which is awesome. He also took the Creation domain, which gives him Splash of Art. Splash of Art is pretty useless for a paladin, and at two actions for a random one-round debuff, and no effect on a successful save, I'd be hesitant to use it even on a more caster-focused character. He also has Litany against Wrath, which is pretty nice (but has a hard time competing against Lay on Hands, particularly since his spell DC isn't so hot).

The party cleric, finally, has taken the Truth domain, which gives her Word of Truth: speak a statement of 25 words or less, and everyone who hears it knows that you believe it's true (and of course you can't lie doing it). Don't get me wrong, that's a cool ability, but it's not really something you'll be busting out every encounter.

If there's ever a Pathfinder 2.5, I'd like to see focus spells be more consistent, preferably as useful encounter abilities. Things like Word of Truth are cool and should be in the game, but perhaps that should be some other mechanic.

[Milo v3]

When they added more focus powers it's not like your focus power characters are really going to get more of them or get to use them more often. Given they are all competing for the same resources of limited class feats and up to 3 focus points.

[Megistone]

Milo v3 wrote:

When they added more focus powers it's not like your focus power characters are really going to get more of them or get to use them more often. Given they are all competing for the same resources of limited class feats and up to 3 focus points.

That's what I mean.

Taking Staffan's example, it would be cool if the domain granted two Focus Spells instead, one being Word of Truth that is cool but situational, and another one that can be applied in different circumstances (the first thing I can think about is a spell that highlights the truth in what you know about a nearby creature, giving you a free Recall Knowledge roll with a nice bonus).

[Ubertron_X]

I second the notion of an increased focus spell pool because this will be one of the only ways to make situational focus spells shine. If I pick Fire Ray I will probably be able to use the focus spell once every encounter (i.e. very often in a regular adventure). If however I pick Word of Truth I might be lucky if I can use it once per adventure.

Every feature in every game will always be evaluated by its players according to the ease of application and magnitude of effect. So if I can easily and/or often apply a feature its effects do not need to be big in order to immediately become a valid choice. On the contrary if a feature is very situational only its effect needs to be rather big in order to present a valid choice. However situational features also increase in relative power if you have a large selection of them to choose from, e.g. if your focus spell A does not match the current situation perhaps focus spell B will.

The other alternative would be to review and potentially adjust the existing focus spells according to their overall power level.

P.S.: Note that Word of Truth has just been picked as an example of a very situational focus spell. There is no denying that it has its uses and may really, really shine in important roleplay heavy scenes. However it may as well be a "dead" focus spell for large parts of any adventure and thus very often much better suited for a NPC that the GM needs to be visibly telling the truth.

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah I agree, the most successful focus spells have been the ones that make sense as a "encounter power" (most of the attack cantrips) or are universally useful like Lay on Hands.

If I don't really see myself using it multiple times in most adventuring days, it probably should be a different kind of spell. Like, Word of Truth would have made an excellent prepared spell for a cleric.

[Zapp]

We have found that most focus spells are exceedingly meh.

Paizo seems to think the fact you can use them every 10 minutes justify making them average or worse.

Instead it just makes us skip the focus points systems entirely. Who has time for bland average spells? *shrug*

And Lay on Hands is just not needed when Medicine exists. Sure, if someone's playing a Champion, he or she can just pick it up, but that's just about the extent of the entire subsystem.

Verdict: opportunity missed and dozens of rulebook pages wasted.

[The Raven Black]

One of my usual PFS players took the Blessed One archetype specifically for Lay on Hands.

So, not wasted for everyone I think.

[AnimatedPaper]

One thing I've found confusing was the decision to make each focus spell tied to a class, and then further locked to a particular subclass. It's not too bad yet, but I think they could have trimmed at least some of the current crop simply by repeating a couple options. I doubt anyone would have complained if Oracles had gotten Tempest Surge instead of Tempest Touch, for example.

If in Secrets of Magic they do elemental wizard schools, its going to feel a bit silly to have completely new focus spells when Fire Ray, Parch, Tidal Surge, and Stone Toss are just sitting there.

Though I am glad they caved to the inevitable and let blessed ones get Lay on Hands. That gives me some hope they might wiggle on this topic where it makes overwhelming sense to do so.

[Squiggit]

Milo v3 wrote:

When they added more focus powers it's not like your focus power characters are really going to get more of them or get to use them more often. Given they are all competing for the same resources of limited class feats and up to 3 focus points.

I think that's part of the complaint.

Casters should maybe have a broader pool of focus spells to begin with. Especially for builds that are stuck with focus spells that don't really work on their own.

If I had to summarize

-Focus spell balance is all over the place. There are focus spells that act as significant longevity extenders and work on their own, focus spells that don't do anything unless you cast another spell, and focus spells that are super niche. The game treats these all as the same.

-Compounding this further, your choice is always bound to some other choice. Clerics get focus spells from their domains. Wizards from schools. Oracles from mysteries. Witches from Lessons. This makes thematic sense, but can often mean you're stuck choosing between the class path that you want and a focus spell you want to use.

-Compounding the first issue, focus spells are very hard to pick up for many classes. This varies a bit, but some spellcasters really only have the one focus spell for a huge chunk of the campaign... which means you're stuck with only one real trick. That makes getting a 'bad' trick feel even worse.

FWIW, at my tables, focus spells that work as good longevity enhancers and spell replacements are the most highly valued.

Focus spells that do something really niche feel like they're a square peg in the round hole, because you don't need an ability to have a 10 minute cooldown if you might only use it once in a session or less.

Focus spells that rely on spell slots to work likewise feel rough, especially at low levels when it feels like the whole point of a good focus spell is to cover for your spell slots.

If players had more options, or just more focus spells outright, it'd alleviate a lot of the stress associated with them, imo.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

The Raven Black wrote:

One of my usual PFS players took the Blessed One archetype specifically for Lay on Hands.

So, not wasted for everyone I think.

My Oracle in Age of Ashes took Blessed One for Lay On Hands. It's great to have a thing to spend focus points on without pushing me up the curse track.

[Perpdepog]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

One of my usual PFS players took the Blessed One archetype specifically for Lay on Hands.

So, not wasted for everyone I think.

My Oracle in Age of Ashes took Blessed One for Lay On Hands. It's great to have a thing to spend focus points on without pushing me up the curse track.

Does it work that way? Oh snap. We have an oracle, actually an orcacle, in my AoA game and they're looking for a way to squeeze out more healing as well.

[Captain Morgan]

One thing I've realized is that focus spells are probably not meant to be equally valuable between classes, which is a little counterintuitive for a universal mechanic. Oracles and clerics are probably the best illustration. They have a similar casting chassis and the same hit points. Oracles get some minor advantages in durability and saves and a curse that has drawbacks. None of that compares great to Divine Font, and I was pretty miffed with how Oracles stacked up. Until I realized that Revelation spells, on average, are a lot more powerful than Domain Spells.

They don't always land on quite the right balance point within the classes-- sorcerers have a lot of melee 1st level powers that are niche, but sorcerers also get some beefy ones later on.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Perpdepog wrote:

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

One of my usual PFS players took the Blessed One archetype specifically for Lay on Hands.

So, not wasted for everyone I think.

My Oracle in Age of Ashes took Blessed One for Lay On Hands. It's great to have a thing to spend focus points on without pushing me up the curse track.

Does it work that way? Oh snap. We have an oracle, actually an orcacle, in my AoA game and they're looking for a way to squeeze out more healing as well.

"Other Focus Spells

You might gain focus spells that aren't revelation spells and don't have the cursebound trait (by taking an archetype, for instance). Since these spells aren't drawing on the same divine mystery as your revelation spells, casting them doesn't increase the effects of your curse. They still cost Focus Points as normal, and you still can't increase your focus pool to hold more than 3 Focus Points."