Dhampir PCs Surviving in Normal Parties


Advice

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What are the best ways for a dhampir PC to survive in a party of non-dhampir without one of them being a Cleric with a deity that allows Harming Font? Otherwise the other players will be forced to babysit such a character as normal healing will kill them!


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Healing that isn't based on positive energy.

Alchemical Healing elixirs. Treat wounds and battle medicine (both of which have a lot of support from some feats and one investigator subclass). The Soothe spell.

There's plenty of normal healing that doesn't have the positive trait.


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Soothe is a common pick for occult casters, and while it's not as strong as heal, the amount of healing is still pretty good and can be used on dhampirs just as well as another party member.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ah, I see! Thanks for the info!


Honestly, I've probably gotten more of the healing done on my characters by treat wounds and battlefield medicine than I ever have from spells. Which doesn't mean spells aren't important under some circumstances here, but they're not the majority of healing in 2e usually.

Grand Archive

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Cleric of Nethys! Take both fonts and directed channel and blast the enemy with a harming cone while healing your dhamphir!


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Also, Oil of Unlife is a thing . . .


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I was thinking in playing a Dhampir Superstitious Barbarian following the Laws of Mortality...


Fast healing stuff might also help ( witch and bard focus spells for example).

Eventually, even investing in medicine.

Medic dedication allows you to use battle medicine on an immune target once per hour, while godless healing makes you immune for just 1 hour.

Which means that every hour you might use 2 battle medicine on yourself ( requires at least master medicine ).


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HumbleGamer wrote:
Fast healing stuff might also help ( witch and bard focus spells for example).

Well, you have to watch which ones you use: for example, the bard focus spell, Hymn of Healing, has the Positive Trait so using it for fast healing is a quick way to kill a Dhampir. ;)

HumbleGamer wrote:

Medic dedication allows you to use battle medicine on an immune target once per hour, while godless healing makes you immune for just 1 hour.

Which means that every hour you might use 2 battle medicine on yourself ( requires at least master medicine ).

Combine it with Investigator [Forensic Medicine] and you don't need godless medicine plus it heals +level hps.


graystone wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Fast healing stuff might also help ( witch and bard focus spells for example).

Well, you have to watch which ones you use: for example, the bard focus spell, Hymn of Healing, has the Positive Trait so using it for fast healing is a quick way to kill a Dhampir. ;)

HumbleGamer wrote:

Medic dedication allows you to use battle medicine on an immune target once per hour, while godless healing makes you immune for just 1 hour.

Which means that every hour you might use 2 battle medicine on yourself ( requires at least master medicine ).

Combine it with Investigator [Forensic Medicine] and you don't need godless medicine plus it heals +level hps.

I always forget that the hard one has the positive trait ( soothe's fault).

As for the investigator, I tried but that class really feels too clunky and incomplete in my opinion.

I'd prefer to sacrifice a deity instead of the whole class, especially if the character can fit perfectly ( damphir or witch, for example).


HumbleGamer wrote:

As for the investigator, I tried but that class really feels too clunky and incomplete in my opinion.

I'd prefer to sacrifice a deity instead of the whole class, especially if the character can fit perfectly ( damphir or witch, for example).

You know the person that's the investigator doesn't have to be you right? ;)

And personally, I find witch clunkier than investigator with everything I want to do requires concentration.

Liberty's Edge

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Evil Champion MC dedication :-P

We do need a negative energy version of the Blessed One archetype.


The Raven Black wrote:

Evil Champion MC dedication :-P

We do need a negative energy version of the Blessed One archetype.

I really second this.

Evil characters ( or simply evil champions ) feel so underpower if compared to the good ones.

I know they have way more freedom because of their tennets, but still the difference is huge.


The player wanting to play a dhampir should talk to the party before they play it. It's an Uncommon heritage for a reason, and asking a party to rearrange itself is not a trivial request.


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Watery Soup wrote:

The player wanting to play a dhampir should talk to the party before they play it. It's an Uncommon heritage for a reason, and asking a party to rearrange itself is not a trivial request.

Not everyone gets to talk to the other players beforehand and plan out their party and/or can expect the party to to conform themselves to their specific needs. If you need something different then normal, it's not odd for other to expect you to provide that yourself.


graystone wrote:
Watery Soup wrote:

The player wanting to play a dhampir should talk to the party before they play it. It's an Uncommon heritage for a reason, and asking a party to rearrange itself is not a trivial request.

Not everyone gets to talk to the other players beforehand and plan out their party and/or can expect the party to to conform themselves to their specific needs. If you need something different then normal, it's not odd for other to expect you to provide that yourself.

While this may be true, so it's the opposite.

Finding yourself not being able to grant support to a party member because of its negative healing

- Unable to receive lay on hand
- Unable to receive positive healing spells like heal

and so on, could lead to issues.

how many harm spells will be necessary in order to keep the damphir alive? what if heals are instead needed to keep the other party alive?

Something like a pool of heals

- 2x lvl 1 heals, 2 lvl 2 heals,
- 1x lay on hand
- Battle medicine

which can be used among the whole party, is different from having a pool of

- 1x lvl 1 heal, 1x lvl 2 heal
- 1x lvl 1 harm, 1x lvl 2 harm
- 1x lay on hand
- battle medicine

leaving apart "who" will be the one using each specific "healing effect".

Same goes for the fact he's an "undead".
Some characters may simply feel uncomfortable ( not to say anything worse ) walking with a damphir, and because so they might prefer not to.

I think that it might be worth the shot to discuss the party composition, given a situation like that.


HumbleGamer wrote:
While this may be true, so it's the opposite.

Never said it wasn't but I don't think the party as a whole has to alter itself to conform to the whims of a particular PC nor should such a PC expect them to. The party might be nice and change all their plans to accommodate them but they might like the way their character is set up as much or more than the dhampir does AND they don't need a specific buy in from the other party members. My point is, you can ask but plan for them to say no. In fact, the situation can be turned around and having the party asking the dhampir player to change their character to conform to the party instead of the party conforming to the dhampir for the reasons you pointed out.

HumbleGamer wrote:
I think that it might be worth the shot to discuss the party composition, given a situation like that.

IF that's possible, sure: can't hurt to try. Myself, I'd have a plan B in case it doesn't go in favor of the rest of the party changing.


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HumbleGamer wrote:
how many harm spells will be necessary in order to keep the damphir alive? what if heals are instead needed to keep the other party alive?

In my opinion, if you bring a Dhampir in a party, you should be able to handle your own healing. Mostly because a lot of healers don't have access to Harm (Sorcerers and Oracles need to know it, Primal casters don't have access to it, Healing Font Clerics have a limited access to it). So you can't expect much healing.

HumbleGamer wrote:
Same goes for the fact he's an "undead".

He is not an undead, technically. Even if I could clearly understand a Cleric of Sarenrae to be suspicious about a Dhampir, it shouldn't trigger hostility. There are many characters that have reasons not to like each other (Paladins and CN Rogues being a classic) but it's not a reason to hinder the ability to adventure together.

It's even more true in games like PFS where you have to expect some weird concepts sometimes (Dhampirs, Tieflings, you can even play a Cleric of Zon-Kuthon).


SuperBidi wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
how many harm spells will be necessary in order to keep the damphir alive? what if heals are instead needed to keep the other party alive?

In my opinion, if you bring a Dhampir in a party, you should be able to handle your own healing. Mostly because a lot of healers don't have access to Harm (Sorcerers and Oracles need to know it, Primal casters don't have access to it, Healing Font Clerics have a limited access to it). So you can't expect much healing.

HumbleGamer wrote:
Same goes for the fact he's an "undead".

He is not an undead, technically. Even if I could clearly understand a Cleric of Sarenrae to be suspicious about a Dhampir, it shouldn't trigger hostility. There are many characters that have reasons not to like each other (Paladins and CN Rogues being a classic) but it's not a reason to hinder the ability to adventure together.

It's even more true in games like PFS where you have to expect some weird concepts sometimes (Dhampirs, Tieflings, you can even play a Cleric of Zon-Kuthon).

Given your damphir situation, you will probably want to bring some "heals", I do agree, but they won't probably be enough to keep you alive ( It's not strange that a boss may kill you with 2 crits in a row ) and this would lead to issues among the party.

What I mean to say is that a party with a Damphir might go on, but it's indeed less easy to manage than a "positive healing" party.

As for being a damphir among a party, depends the party.

While I do agree that the adventurers are the exception and the main characters of the adventure, I don't give for granted that there won't be issues but only suspiciousness.

Drizzt, to say one, is a good drow, but you won't necessarily travel with a drow, just being suspicious on him.


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HumbleGamer wrote:
Given your damphir situation, you will probably want to bring some "heals", I do agree, but they won't probably be enough to keep you alive ( It's not strange that a boss may kill you with 2 crits in a row ) and this would lead to issues among the party.

Even if it happens, it doesn't mean that it has to happen. I don't think that you need a healer for a character to be playable. But I agree that you need a more defensive way of playing with such a character (keeping HPs to stabilize yourself seems like a good idea).

HumbleGamer wrote:

While I do agree that the adventurers are the exception and the main characters of the adventure, I don't give for granted that there won't be issues but only suspiciousness.

Drizzt, to say one, is a good drow, but you won't necessarily travel with a drow, just being suspicious on him.

In my opinion, you don't end up with a Dhampir in a table where there shouldn't be one. Otherwise, you have to speak to your GM.

In PFS, you are supposed to play a character that is enough open-minded to accept Orcs, Dhampirs, Tieflings, Tengus and such in the party.

As a side note, I think it also depends on how the Dhampir is played. If you play a Dhampir who's shaddy with lots of necromantic abilities, I can understand that some characters reject him. But if you play a Dhampir Paladin, I expect less issues.


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graystone wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
I think that it might be worth the shot to discuss the party composition, given a situation like that.
IF that's possible, sure: can't hurt to try. Myself, I'd have a plan B in case it doesn't go in favor of the rest of the party changing.

I think you're misunderstanding.

I think "you're on your own for healing" is plan A. Asking the party to rearrange itself for you is plan B.

Scarab Sages

HumbleGamer wrote:

Given your damphir situation, you will probably want to bring some "heals", I do agree, but they won't probably be enough to keep you alive ( It's not strange that a boss may kill you with 2 crits in a row ) and this would lead to issues among the party.

What I mean to say is that a party with a Damphir might go on, but it's indeed less easy to manage than a "positive healing" party.

Two crits doesn't kill you unless you were wounded 1 before the 1st crit or the 2nd crit happens when you're dying 2. If you're crit once and dropped, then brought back up, you're wounded 1. Another crit that drops you puts you at Dying 3, not dead. Granted, if your turn comes back around (after moving in initiative) or anything else hits you while you're down, then it's possible you'll die.

But a boss critting you, dropping you, and then hitting you again while you are down and critting on that hit should probably be pretty rare and is going to kill anyone, Dhampir or not.

All that said, Toughness and Diehard are both good options for a Dhampir to take to give you more of a chance to live if there isn't healing immediately available.


When I said kill, I meant put you down ( I thought it was obvious, since it's probably impossible to get killed with 2 crits ).
And with nobody able to heal you, there you stay.

And the party wouldn't be that happy to sometimes have a downed member they can't get back into the fight. Or at least, I wouldn't.

Scarab Sages

“Keep you alive” and “kill you” read exactly as they say. Sorry for misunderstanding the intent. The death, wounded, and dying conditions have been frequently misunderstood, so I thought it important to clarify.

One crit from a boss can put a lot of characters down, so the point that it’s likely the character will be out of a fight at some point is a good one. Especially at low levels, which is when things like battle medicine that could make up for not being able to be targeted with positive energy are also not a sure thing to work. But if there’s going to be a Dhampir in the group, having that mundane healing is really helpful. It’s definitely harder in 2E to bring your own healing for that situation. Handing an oil of unlife or two off to your party members is probably the best option for that situation among the things you can control.


I agree and I would do something like that.

What bothers me more is that in terms of action economy it might be not efficient at all.

For example, dual wielding, using a 2h weapon or even a sword and board build will require you something like:

-stride to the damphir
-release one hand for free
-interact to take out a flask of oil of in life
-interact to use it on the damphir
-interact to take your weapon/grip back

4 actions vs 2 ( heal or soothe), which might trigger AoO.

Maybe something meant to give the damphir some temporary hp could work ( but most of that stuff comes from necromancy spells).

Also, in terms of action economy, doctor's visitation is in my opinion one of the most powerful moves with the flourish trait, which suits perfectly any caster ( 2 actions to cast a spell or cantrip, and one left which might be also used to stride+ battle medicine).


You can always Stabilize the damphir. While it has the Positive trait, it's doesn't heal hp or deal damage so it doesn't interact with negative healing. This was even those that focus on normal healing spells can stop dying.

HumbleGamer wrote:

For example, dual wielding, using a 2h weapon or even a sword and board build will require you something like:

-stride to the damphir
-release one hand for free
-interact to take out a flask of oil of in life
-interact to use it on the damphir
-interact to take your weapon/grip back

I think most people would hand it so someone with a hand open. The number of actions you list is less or equal to a cleric using a 3 action heal. So pro tip, make sure the person you hand an item to has a hand for it.

HumbleGamer wrote:
Also, in terms of action economy, doctor's visitation is in my opinion one of the most powerful moves with the flourish trait, which suits perfectly any caster ( 2 actions to cast a spell or cantrip, and one left which might be also used to stride+ battle medicine).

Yep: if you're looking for non-magic healing, I still vote Investigator with Medic for MVP.


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graystone wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Fast healing stuff might also help ( witch and bard focus spells for example).
Well, you have to watch which ones you use: for example, the bard focus spell, Hymn of Healing, has the Positive Trait so using it for fast healing is a quick way to kill a Dhampir. ;)

Dhampir and other creatures that have the Negative Healing ability aren't harmed by positive healing, they're just not affected by it. Hymn of Healing won't kill a Dhampir. The reason that Heal harms creatures with Negative Healing is that it includes separate clauses about dealing positive damage, but neither Hymn of Healing nor the Fast Healing ability it grants includes such a clause.

In Pathfinder 2e, positive healing and positive damage aren't automatically connected. There are effects like Heal and Lay on Hands that do one or the other depending on the target, but there are also effects that only do positive healing (which just don't affect undead things) and effects that only do positive damage (which just don't affect most other things.)


HumbleGamer wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

Evil Champion MC dedication :-P

We do need a negative energy version of the Blessed One archetype.

I really second this.

Evil characters ( or simply evil champions ) feel so underpower if compared to the good ones.

I know they have way more freedom because of their tennets, but still the difference is huge.

I think LE would be the only one that could somewhat fit in with most parties anyway, and it is fairly strong.


graystone wrote:
Yep: if you're looking for non-magic healing, I still vote Investigator with Medic for MVP.

I never looked at combining Forensic Investigator with Medic. That's a pretty good combo. Thanks for the idea.

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