The Inventor doesn't really feel like an Inventor to me.

[tobmind]

The way the class is currently built doesn't seem quite like you're trying to invent something. The process of invention goes: see a problem a tool would simplify > figure out what the tool should do and build it > look at how your tool id malfunctioning and learn from the mistakes to improve it. The advancing abilities your invention can have definitely fit this but the unstable effect with constant explosions and also just having a fully functional device at level one makes the class feel less like an inventor and more like a pesh head with a screwdriver that stole a toaster. Which is definitely a kind of inventor but shouldn't be the base in my opinion.

A alternative to the current design that i think might fit the general theme of inventor, and should allow many of the themes that are currently present to persist is as follows:

The abilities your inventions can have at different tiers have die numbers assigned to them within their block (all the level one weapon abilities would be one block). When an inventor takes time to rebuild/tweak their invention they have to roll against a crafting DC. Each tier should have its own DC that is difficult for when an inventor first has access to the tier but is very doable when the inventor is about to move up to the next. This shows the inventor making many mistakes when they're starting and slowly stepping it up as they learn from mistakes. The results of the check against that DC could go as follows (may need balancing):
Crit success: player can pick an ability or roll a random one from the next tier of abilities.
Success: player gets to pick an ability.
Failure: player has to roll a random ability.
Crit Failure: player has to roll a random ability and if they critically fail a roll that uses the invention (attacks for the weapon, saves for the armor, the robot doing anything on its own) the invention will explode and be rendered non functional until rebuilt. However, if the inventor takes rime to study the broken parts of the invention they get a bonus (+5 maybe) to the next check they make to rebuild it.

I feel like this setup, instead of over pumping machines and making them explode a lot, would better represent the process of invention, improvement, and attempting to implement your tools; even if they aren't quite working as you wanted.

[shroudb]

while having randomness is one of the core premise of the game (i mean, that's why we roll dices and not predetermine results) having a class built being "random" with different abilities than the ones that you would want to have would be terrible imo.

As far as making things explode, in almost every steampunk/clockwork literature, most inventors are the "crfazy kind" inventors that indeed build multiple exploding features in the majority of their inventions.

[LarsC]

Honestly, I feel like the process of leveling up and adding feats to your build feels a whole lot like the desired inventor aesthetic the OP is describing.

The way I play games like this, I'm constantly trying to refine and adjust the quality of my build over the course of a campaign, and I think the way the feats add on and modify the Inventor class's innovation already captures the exact feel you're looking for, on a macro level.

[Ruzza]

This sounds, to me, like a system that leaves developers with no real baseline for where the Inventor's power will fall at any given level. Somewhat akin to rolling for HP, but with a lot more variance. It also seems a bit more complicated than necessary, like the class is jumping through extra hoops to get their baseline abilities that other classes just get. While I'm sure there's design space for a gambling/random outcomes sort of playstyle, I think that as a baseline baked-in feature for a class, it's an idea with a lot of stumbling blocks.

[CorvusMask]

I do think its also bit of a slippery slope thing.

Like you could ask "Well, does alchemist feels like class about researching natural sciences to turn lead into gold?" or "well do you feel like as wizard you spend years studying and researching to discover new magicks?"

[Martialmasters]

To a point I think this is just a perception and desire issue.

Inventor, you have a specific identity in mind for what that is. Paizo differs on this.

I feel the same way about witch. Given I used to practice wicca she researched various forms of witchcraft. The paizo witch I really do not identify with. I don't take it personally, it's a game afterall. Just an example of specific perception not lining up with paizo.

[Ruzza]

Martialmasters wrote:

To a point I think this is just a perception and desire issue.

Inventor, you have a specific identity in mind for what that is. Paizo differs on this.

I feel the same way about witch. Given I used to practice wicca she researched various forms of witchcraft. The paizo witch I really do not identify with. I don't take it personally, it's a game afterall. Just an example of specific perception not lining up with paizo.

Don't even get me started on the Juggler archetype and the number of people I've never murdered with throwing knives.

[tobmind]

Ruzza wrote:

This sounds, to me, like a system that leaves developers with no real baseline for where the Inventor's power will fall at any given level. Somewhat akin to rolling for HP, but with a lot more variance. It also seems a bit more complicated than necessary, like the class is jumping through extra hoops to get their baseline abilities that other classes just get. While I'm sure there's design space for a gambling/random outcomes sort of playstyle, I think that as a baseline baked-in feature for a class, it's an idea with a lot of stumbling blocks.

The inventor currently has a class ability it gains at 3rd level for the player to rebuild and change the abilities of their invention themselves. Since the player will be able to change their baseline in Paizo's current design I do not think my proposal would actually create more hoops the player needs to jump through since the chance of not getting what you picked would go away with some leveling and you would have a chance to get something better than you intended.

[PossibleCabbage]

I like the inventor as "someone who has already invented an automaton/power armor/etc. and is working on field testing it/refining it, rather than "someone who invents technological solutions to things every six seconds."

The actual work of "okay, how do I make the arms telescoping" is something you come up with in a quiet, free moment and work at for a while rather than "okay, let's swap these two wires" then you get it.

[Sporkedup]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I like the inventor as "someone who has already invented an automaton/power armor/etc. and is working on field testing it/refining it, rather than "someone who invents technological solutions to things every six seconds."

The actual work of "okay, how do I make the arms telescoping" is something you come up with in a quiet, free moment and work at for a while rather than "okay, let's swap these two wires" then you get it.

Yeah, I think that's definitely their idea here. It confuses people sometimes, like summoners or oracles or witches don't quite do what it says on the tin... they're flavorful names that approximate the overview of the class. Inventor fits in that boat too. I see why it might not be the smoothest name to offer but I think people will figure it out pretty quickly.

That said, there might be some significant expansions to equipment, crafting, and invention in general that they are poised to lead from the front for.

[Undraxis]

I'll have to agree with the OP. As presented, it tries too hard to be a quasi Ironman homage. When I hear Inventor, I think of someone that can make a machine to solve problems. There is nothing in the ruleset that mimic that capability. It all revolves on their one innovation.

Comparing it to the 5e artificer, on the surface its the same situation where both classes rely on a singular 'trick'. Where the artificer shines tho, is that it uses 'spells' as a system to quickly mimic technical innovations without introducing a complex tinker system. For example that floating disc spell is actually a wheeled invention carrying the load. Fireball comes out of a makeshift flamethrower. Flight comes from a backpack with a propeller and wings. Just to name a few examples.

Now I dont think the Inventor should go down the same path, frankly using spells as an invention system has its own problems thematically for me. But I would like something similar where they could jury rig something on the fly to solve a conflict without being forced to rely on their 'trick'.

[Martialmasters]

That's literally a feat line rogues and investigator's can take.

Just give inventors that feat line as well.

[tobmind]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I like the inventor as "someone who has already invented an automaton/power armor/etc. and is working on field testing it/refining it, rather than "someone who invents technological solutions to things every six seconds."

The actual work of "okay, how do I make the arms telescoping" is something you come up with in a quiet, free moment and work at for a while rather than "okay, let's swap these two wires" then you get it.

Yes, I also like that view for the inventor. I am not proposing that the inventor makes many tiny solutions. I still want them to keep the weapon, armor, and bot things and have the ability to tweak the build slightly like the current design. However, I think the inventor's tweaks and rebuilds shouldn't be automatic "you got exactly what you wanted" because then why would you need to be testing it? I also do not like how the inventor currently seems to rely on causing catastrophic explosive failures to their inventions as those are generally something one wants to avoid.

[Martialmasters]

tobmind wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I like the inventor as "someone who has already invented an automaton/power armor/etc. and is working on field testing it/refining it, rather than "someone who invents technological solutions to things every six seconds."

The actual work of "okay, how do I make the arms telescoping" is something you come up with in a quiet, free moment and work at for a while rather than "okay, let's swap these two wires" then you get it.

Yes, I also like that view for the inventor. I am not proposing that the inventor makes many tiny solutions. I still want them to keep the weapon, armor, and bot things and have the ability to tweak the build slightly like the current design. However, I think the inventor's tweaks and rebuilds shouldn't be automatic "you got exactly what you wanted" because then why would you need to be testing it? I also do not like how the inventor currently seems to rely on causing catastrophic explosive failures to their inventions as those are generally something one wants to avoid.

I am actually very much against not making the tweaks and rebuild automatic. Because I don't want RNG failure that is part of the playstyle of the (or any) class.

Right now keeping that failure for when you try to push things knowingly too far feels very good to me.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

I think my problem is, the inventor doesn't seem all that great at inventing things besides weapons and armor.

Like, I get that you have the Inventor feat, and you can craft all sorts of things in downtime, and I'm sure the equipment section of the book will include all sorts of gadgets and gizmos to scratch that utility-invention niche, but all of the Inventor class feats are pretty laser-focused on getting into fights and beating the crap out of people.

You know what I'd love to see? Something like the Prescient Planner feat, where you can say "ah! I have just the invention for this situation" and pull out a gizmo you crafted.

[Martialmasters]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

You know what I'd love to see? Something like the Prescient Planner feat, where you can say "ah! I have just the invention for this situation" and pull out a gizmo you crafted.

Ah yes, that's the feat chain I was thinking of that I mentioned earlier.

It's also possible they are slated for the inventor just as more summoning options for the summoner but never given as they wanted us to test other things.

[Sporkedup]

Well, the Inventor class gets the level 7 master skill feat Inventor for free at level 1. That puts you ahead for at least 6 levels in that regard!

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Sporkedup wrote:

Well, the Inventor class gets the level 7 master skill feat Inventor for free at level 1. That puts you ahead for at least 6 levels in that regard!

Sure, and I acknowledged that.

But that's 4 days to invent the formula, and then 4 days to craft the item, and the benefit is you can craft something that you might be able to buy outright? For the same price?

That's not nothing, but it's not exactly making me feel like a super rad mad-scientist inventor.

Plus, at level 7, everyone else can chomp your flavor for the price of a skill feat.

[Sporkedup]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Sporkedup wrote:

Well, the Inventor class gets the level 7 master skill feat Inventor for free at level 1. That puts you ahead for at least 6 levels in that regard!

Sure, and I acknowledged that.

But that's 4 days to invent the formula, and then 4 days to craft the item, and the benefit is you can craft something that you might be able to buy outright? For the same price?

That's not nothing, but it's not exactly making me feel like a super rad mad-scientist inventor.

Plus, at level 7, everyone else can chomp your flavor for the price of a skill feat.

"Everyone else" who can chomp your flavor at level 7 are only the people putting their first master bonus into crafting, which is a very rare subset of characters. It's technically available to everyone but it's still pretty niche.

I guess your concerns have less to do with how the Inventor can approach crafting and more with how awkward and not cost-effective crafting is in the first place. Personally also hoping to see some upgrades to the whole crafting scene in this book. Guess we'll see.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Sporkedup wrote:

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Sporkedup wrote:

Well, the Inventor class gets the level 7 master skill feat Inventor for free at level 1. That puts you ahead for at least 6 levels in that regard!

Sure, and I acknowledged that.

But that's 4 days to invent the formula, and then 4 days to craft the item, and the benefit is you can craft something that you might be able to buy outright? For the same price?

That's not nothing, but it's not exactly making me feel like a super rad mad-scientist inventor.

Plus, at level 7, everyone else can chomp your flavor for the price of a skill feat.

"Everyone else" who can chomp your flavor at level 7 are only the people putting their first master bonus into crafting, which is a very rare subset of characters. It's technically available to everyone but it's still pretty niche.

I guess your concerns have less to do with how the Inventor can approach crafting and more with how awkward and not cost-effective crafting is in the first place. Personally also hoping to see some upgrades to the whole crafting scene in this book. Guess we'll see.

Insofar as the Inventor’s utility-inventing hangs entirely on the extant Crafting system, sure.

But I think there are several ways to expand how the Inventor approaches inventing without necessarily changing Crafting itself.

[Ruzza]

Inventor, level 1: "I am an inventor!"

Alchemist, level 7 with master Crafting and the Inventor feat: "I am an inventor!"

Doesn't really seem like the flavor biting as compared to...

Gunslinger, level 1: "I am a gunslinger!"

Fighter, level 1 with a flintlock pistol: "I am a gunslinger!"

Yeah, that's a gunslinger issue and not an inventor one, but I do see that someone who willfully takes steps and efforts to get to that point flavorwise isn't a big problem. Now, if the argument is for more thematic feats, totally, I get that. We also aren't seeing the rest of G&G which I assume will have some Crafting love.

[Elfteiroh]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Sporkedup wrote:

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Sporkedup wrote:

Well, the Inventor class gets the level 7 master skill feat Inventor for free at level 1. That puts you ahead for at least 6 levels in that regard!

Sure, and I acknowledged that.

But that's 4 days to invent the formula, and then 4 days to craft the item, and the benefit is you can craft something that you might be able to buy outright? For the same price?

That's not nothing, but it's not exactly making me feel like a super rad mad-scientist inventor.

Plus, at level 7, everyone else can chomp your flavor for the price of a skill feat.

"Everyone else" who can chomp your flavor at level 7 are only the people putting their first master bonus into crafting, which is a very rare subset of characters. It's technically available to everyone but it's still pretty niche.

I guess your concerns have less to do with how the Inventor can approach crafting and more with how awkward and not cost-effective crafting is in the first place. Personally also hoping to see some upgrades to the whole crafting scene in this book. Guess we'll see.

Insofar as the Inventor’s utility-inventing hangs entirely on the extant Crafting system, sure.

But I think there are several ways to expand how the Inventor approaches inventing without necessarily changing Crafting itself.

They said there was a line of feats that give you a number of free gadgets you can craft quickly each day, a bit like how Rangers can take feats to craft free snares, even in combat.

They just didn't put it into the playtest because writing down all the gadgets would take too much space, and would divert from the core of the class.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Elfteiroh wrote:

They said there was a line of feats that give you a number of free gadgets you can craft quickly each day, a bit like how Rangers can take feats to craft free snares, even in combat.
They just didn't put it into the playtest because writing down all the gadgets would take too much space, and would divert from the core of the class.

I hadn’t caught that, and that’s good to hear!

It would have been nice to get a small sample of the gadgets, just to get a sense for where they’re going with that rules element, but I can understand not wanting to overstuff the playtest.

[AnimatedPaper]

There's an Inventor Lost Omens: Legends, and another in Lost Omens: Pathfinder Society. Both have small gadgets (alchemical tools with the first, talismans with the second) listed with them.

I wouldn't be surprised if gadgets wind up similar to either, or both.

Items are on LO:L 24 and LO:PFS 108

[Pinstripedbarbarian]

Ruzza wrote:

Don't even get me started on the Juggler archetype and the number of people I've never murdered with throwing knives.

I know right? And maxing out at 5 props? Come on, we can murder WAY better than that.

[Ashbourne]

I think the problem of The Inventor doesn't really feel like an Inventor is that inventing is really a downtime activity. other then the inventor class being trained in crafting we have no idea what is planned for inventors to do during downtime.

[The-Magic-Sword]

Incidentally, I could see the class getting the Inventor for free, even at level 1 (violating the normal prerequisite of master crafting) I don't think it would break anything to do that, and give the Inventor a very real niche among crafting classes without actually making it automatically better at it.

I see this in the same way the Investigator gets certain skill feats and such.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but the inventor class does get the Inventor feat at level 1?

[Ashanderai]

Yep, with the Peerless Inventor class feature.

[The-Magic-Sword]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but the inventor class does get the Inventor feat at level 1?

I'm an idiot, yup, they do.

Honestly I'd say they cover the whole thematic space pretty well then.