Armor Innovation

[Keraki]

Maybe I'm insane. I'll let you all decide. If my inventor is consumed in his awesome lifework that is his armor, should he not have higher proficiency with it? I think (for armor innovation) that it's proficient should scale with up to legendary.

[Nik Gervae]

You'd think, wouldn't you.

[HammerJack]

The same logic would suggest that weapon proficiency for a weapon innovation should do the same. Of course, there are 2 major points to consider:

1. The skill if making the armor or weapon and the skill of using it aren't the same, and so the idea that obsessively tinkering with complicated gear would develop your skill as efficiently as a more conventional martial character rigorously training with more normal gear doesn't hold up that well.

2. Legendary proficiency is a major class feature. Its not the kind if thing that gets slapped into a class without other features having to be balanced around your high proficiency.

[Keraki]

HammerJack wrote:

1. The skill if making the armor or weapon and the skill of using it aren't the same, and so the idea that obsessively tinkering with complicated gear would develop your skill as efficiently as a more conventional martial character rigorously training with more normal gear doesn't hold up that well.

Not saying I'm right or you are wrong, but the same reason I could gain up to Legendary is the same reason people are untrained in my innovation, even if they have the correct proficiency, is that it is perfectly tuned for me. And yes I could see that for the weapon innovation, or at least a high level feat for it.

[HammerJack]

Raising proficiency in weapon or armor over the maximum equivalent proficiency of your class chassis is honestly more than I'd recommend you expect a feat to ever do.

[Sporkedup]

I don't think legendary in armor is necessary or wise.

I wouldn't mind, however, giving the armor a specific boost that makes it one over the normal threshold (so the level one gear is 5 item and 1 DEX cap, while the heavy is 6 item and 1 DEX cap). Still puts it behind the champion but also sets it a bit apart from the other armor-intensive classes.

That said, with all the damage resistances possible, it might really junk up balance. So I dunno. Just spitballing.

[Keraki]

Just seems to me that most anything a Inventor can specialize in, some class hands down already is better at it. Also said I might be insane.

[Puna'chong]

If you're looking at it just in terms of proficiency maybe. I think the larger point for Inventor is to supplement their innovation's regular course of progression (runes, etc.) with other abilities from Breakthroughs and class feats.

I do think they need more Breakthroughs, and earlier Breakthroughs to support this, which I made a post about. But proficiency isn't everything. I think regular proficiency for a martial that's offset by more abilities is where I'm at.

Though, Armor Innovation needs some piston punch support. And I'd love to see some more pseudo-magical self-buffs coming from armor suits too.

[shroudb]

Puna'chong wrote:

If you're looking at it just in terms of proficiency maybe. I think the larger point for Inventor is to supplement their innovation's regular course of progression (runes, etc.) with other abilities from Breakthroughs and class feats.

I do think they need more Breakthroughs, and earlier Breakthroughs to support this, which I made a post about. But proficiency isn't everything. I think regular proficiency for a martial that's offset by more abilities is where I'm at.

Though, Armor Innovation needs some piston punch support. And I'd love to see some more pseudo-magical self-buffs coming from armor suits too.

isn't Overdrive that boosts the damage of your punches already a "piston punch" though? (with Megaton being the equivalent of rocket punch basically)

the thing that's missing imo from Armor path is "interesting" abilities. Breakthroughs are mostly DRs, which while strong enough do not offer enough "crazyness".

Weapon path you can cobble together insane weapon combinations, the minion you can give it cool abilities like ranged weapons, weapon keywords, skills, and etc, but for Armor it's only DR this and DR that :(

[Puna'chong]

Well, what I mean with Armor Innovation is that there isn't an unarmed attack line. I guess you could pick a gauntlet weapon or something, but it feels more interesting to me to have it be like a robot arm attached to a breastplate rather than a standalone weapon.

But yeah, at any rate, some more cool, interesting armor abilities would be cool. Especially things that aren't just static "armor rune" things.

[shroudb]

Puna'chong wrote:

Well, what I mean with Armor Innovation is that there isn't an unarmed attack line. I guess you could pick a gauntlet weapon or something, but it feels more interesting to me to have it be like a robot arm attached to a breastplate rather than a standalone weapon.

But yeah, at any rate, some more cool, interesting armor abilities would be cool. Especially things that aren't just static "armor rune" things.

shameless plug

the great thing with Inventor is that they left all the "fluff" up to your imagination. So while you use gizmos for your stuff, what kind of gizmos, and why they work, and how they look, it's totally up to you.

so, in my shameless plug above, i do envision that the whole gorilla punch thing to be my armor having oversized gauntlets that support my punches and allow me to overdrive them and give them elemental damage and etc

[OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0]

Sure, but it still doesn’t change the fact that the Armor line *as currently presented in the Playtest* isn’t hugely exciting in contrast to the zany of Weapon or Construct.

[shroudb]

OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:

Sure, but it still doesn’t change the fact that the Armor line *as currently presented in the Playtest* isn’t hugely exciting in contrast to the zany of Weapon or Construct.

well... most of my posts about inter-class balance actually point that thing exactly:

armor path seems to be the less interesting due to the design being basically "bunch of DRs" and the feats (especially early on) being extremely campaign specific.

it's the one path imo that needs the most work.

that said, from purely mathematical approach, maybe it's not that worse off than the others, and the "mecha/steam armor" fantasy is one that draws quite the attention, so even if i'm proven wrong, and Armor path is as strong (or even stronger!) than the other two paths, i do agree wholeheartily that it needs more "Inventor" in it.

i mean...:

shroudb wrote:

the thing that's missing imo from Armor path is "interesting" abilities. Breakthroughs are mostly DRs, which while strong enough do not offer enough "crazyness".

Weapon path you can cobble together insane weapon combinations, the minion you can give it cool abilities like ranged weapons, weapon keywords, skills, and etc, but for Armor it's only DR this and DR that :(

[Serial Loafer]

I think the breakthroughs are more or less okay, though I would welcome more options of course. The big issue I think is that there aren't a lot of great feats for armor inventors, and a lot of the really cool feats that we do have (both innovation specific and general inventor feats) are gated behind the Unstable trait. I like the idea behind unstable, but it's also frustrating that so much of the class is realistically only accessible once every 10 minutes.

[Squiggit]

I'd like to see all the various DR innovations get condensed down to just like "pick two energy types" and some more adventurous alternatives pop up.

Integrated weapons, bonuses to unarmed attacks, skill enhancers.

If Weapon inventors are all about beating you down with a custom sword and construct inventors have this badass companion, making armor inventors have more of a gadget angle could be fun.

[Gaulin]

100% agree with squiggit, especially the first sentence.

[Ligraph]

I'd like to see more utility (esp. speed) and damage (integrated weapons and unarmed) modifications as part of the default modification lists, instead of just feats. Feats certainly have a place, but it seems like only Armor have some of the basic modifications (mobility) as feats instead of defaults. Weapon and Construct both have multiple "paths", armor just has which type of DR you want.

A "Dual-Form Armor" feat would also be very cool with more options, so you could say switch from your damaging armor to a full defense armor.

[TheGentlemanDM]

I would like to see the Heavy Construction option folded into the base chassis.

STR 16, +5/+1, bulwark, no speed penalty is heckin' good, to the point that the other options at 9th (this competes with physical resistances) are hard to justify.

[Perpdepog]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

I would like to see the Heavy Construction option folded into the base chassis.

STR 16, +5/+1, bulwark, no speed penalty is heckin' good, to the point that the other options at 9th (this competes with physical resistances) are hard to justify.

This. I mean, people were (maybe still are) happy to burn two feats with caster characters to get scaling heavy armor prof via the champion multiclass feats, and that's not even counting the fact that this armor doesn't cause a speed penalty, which is also worth a feat as evidenced by the Hellknight Armiger.

Then, make that a feature that doesn't compete with my feat resource? Sign me up!

[TheGentlemanDM]

Perpdepog wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

I would like to see the Heavy Construction option folded into the base chassis.

STR 16, +5/+1, bulwark, no speed penalty is heckin' good, to the point that the other options at 9th (this competes with physical resistances) are hard to justify.

This. I mean, people were (maybe still are) happy to burn two feats with caster characters to get scaling heavy armor prof via the champion multiclass feats, and that's not even counting the fact that this armor doesn't cause a speed penalty, which is also worth a feat as evidenced by the Hellknight Armiger.

Then, make that a feature that doesn't compete with my feat resource? Sign me up!

Yeah, it sounds a little too good when you put it like that, but given that this is an 8HP/level class that's wanting to act as a tank, I think it needs it. Also, given that having free armour and some relatively minor resistances is all that the Armour Innovation gets at the start (compared to a souped-up companion and guaranteed access to weapon traits on whatever you're wielding), I don't think it's unwarranted.

[TheGentlemanDM]

I mean, at the end of the day it's just +1 AC. You're still behind the Champion and the Monk, you've still got mediocre HP, and you didn't get Shield Block for free.

[Perpdepog]

Oh, I'm not saying the option itself is too good. I'm just agreeing with you that it's much better than the other, comparable options in its pool, which usually suggests to me that it should be something you just get, ala Martial Casting for the magus.