Is it possible to have a +5 inherent bonus to both intelligence and charisma at the same time?
My friend is telling me that you can only have a +5 total inherent bonus across all stats as a whole. I'm under the impression that you can have a +5 inherent bonus on multiple different stats at the same time.
Thanks for your time and I hope to hear back soon! I'm relatively new to getting deep into Pathfinder stuff and this is all extremely exciting to me!
It's per stat, though inherent bonuses are ridiculously expensive even late game and you may not be able to afford +5s to two stats without cutting into other stuff you want even at level 20.
Yes, you can.
Generally, bonuses of the same type and on the same object do not stack. These inherent bonuses are on different objects (Charisma & Wisdom) and therefore they stack.
The spell Wish itself says the same thing:
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Inherent is listed as a type that affects "Ability Scores", not stats in specific or singular.
I presume you're talking about the list on d20pfsrd.com. That list is not in any way official, it was copied from a D&D 3.5 book.
I get that it's not spelled out explicitly, but the stacking rules only ever apply to bonuses to the exact same target. Otherwise, you couldn't "stack" a stat belt with a stat headband, or a magic weapon with a magic armor, or profit from both the strength and constitution increas that Rage grants, or from Inspire Courage's bonus to both attack and damage tolls, or from one of the items that boost two things at the same time (like Belt of Physical Might).
What the stacking rules are about is that you can't read a tome of cha+4 and a tome of cha+5 and have a +9 to cha. That's all.
That's not an exception, it's the rule. Take a look at "Stacking" (d20PFSRD or AoN, further down on the very same page you referenced):
Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
Since a +2 inherent bonus to Charisma applies to a different statistic than a +3 inherent bonus to Wisdom, they are both applied.
This isn't from 3.5, it's under common terms in the d20pfsrd and core rulebook page 11.
I was talking about the list, which is not in the CRB. d20pfsrd.com, which is not in any way an official Pathfinder source, copied the table from the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide. The table is acually erroneous in parts, because Pathfinder's stacking rules are different from the 3.5 rules.
Note that the full rules on bonus types and stacking are on pg. 208 of the CRB (that's the magic section, but the rules regardlessly apply to everything), the "common terms" description is just a rough overview. The second part of your quote in your first post actually comes from there; d20pfsrd.com mashed the two sections together.
Take a look at "Stacking" (d20PFSRD or AoN, further down on the very same page you referenced):
Whoop, guess my last post was incorrect and it is spelled out!
Well, tomes aren't as special as I thought they were, it seems.
There are also a few other ways of getting inherent bonuses to ability scores. These bonuses are extremely rare though, with the Manuals/Tomes being extremely expensive, and Wish being available only to primary spellcasters with 9th-level spell-slots [usually character level 17 or 18].
Other bonuses to ability scores are the cheap & abundant enhancement bonuses, the occasional morale/alchemical/size bonuses, the rare sacred/profane bonuses, and the unique human racial bonus.
If you're interested, the biggest inherent bonus I've ever seen:
A Lore Oracle can take the Mental Acuity revelation, which gives a +1 inherent bonus to Intelligence; this bonus increases by 1 for every 3 additional Oracle levels.
Any Oracle -- equipped with a Soothsayer's Raiment (that contains that revelation) at level 1 and the Oracle's Favored Class Bonus from certain races (Aasimar, Elf, Ifrit, Nagaji, or Sylph) -- could potentially increase this bonus to +8 at level 19. This is the biggest inherent bonus I've seen so far.
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Soothsayer's Raiment requires you to have the appropriate Mystery, so it doesn't really help you beyond saving you a revelation slot as a Lore Oracle:Well, tomes aren't as special as I thought they were, it seems.There are also a few other ways of getting inherent bonuses to ability scores. These bonuses are extremely rare though, with the Manuals/Tomes being extremely expensive, and Wish being available only to primary spellcasters with 9th-level spell-slots [usually character level 17 or 18].
Other bonuses to ability scores are the cheap & abundant enhancement bonuses, the occasional morale/alchemical/size bonuses, the rare sacred/profane bonuses, and the unique human racial bonus.
If you're interested, the biggest inherent bonus I've ever seen:
A Lore Oracle can take the Mental Acuity revelation, which gives a +1 inherent bonus to Intelligence; this bonus increases by 1 for every 3 additional Oracle levels.
Any Oracle -- equipped with a Soothsayer's Raiment (that contains that revelation) at level 1 and the Oracle's Favored Class Bonus from certain races (Aasimar, Elf, Ifrit, Nagaji, or Sylph) -- could potentially increase this bonus to +8 at level 19. This is the biggest inherent bonus I've seen so far.
Ultimate Equipment pg. 129, Advanced Player's Guide pg. 286 Aura faint divination CL 5thSource
Slot armor; Price 10,300 gp; Weight 40 lbs.
Description
This +1 chainmail is attuned to a particular oracular mystery and contains a revelation associated with that mystery (see the oracle class description in the Advanced Player’s Guide). Its design and coloration are typically suggestive of its related mystery. While wearing the armor, an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature. The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the armor; for example, a soothsayer’s raiment (battlecry) is only usable by an oracle of battle. If the wearer already has that revelation and the revelation grants an ability with a limited number of uses per day, the oracle can use that ability one additional time per day. This ability has no effect if the armor is worn by a non-oracle.
For divination spells with a percentage-based chance of success (such as augury and divination), the wearer’s chance increases by +5.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, augury, creator must be an oracle with the desired revelation; Price 5,300 gp
i'm not sure there's anything preventing you from taking a favored class bonus to increase the effectiveness of a revelation you don't have yet. it's certainly a reasonable thing for GMs to rule, but i don't recall seeing anything in the RAW that prevents it. that would be where the other +2 comes from i imagine.
Note that a couple of sorcerer bloodlines can give you a +6 inherent bonus to strength, but most other sources of inherent bonuses are limited to +5.
Soothsayer's Raiment requires you to have the appropriate Mystery, so it doesn't really help you beyond saving you a revelation slot as a Lore Oracle.
On the contrary.
First, you don't even need to be a Lore Oracle, any Oracle is fine, as you can simply use UMD to emulate the Lore mystery (since it's a class feature).
Second, unlike the Ring of Revelation, the Soothsayer's Raiment has no level requirements whatsoever, neither for the wearer nor for the Revelation that is stored inside. That allows you to have that revelation right from your 1st level, and it will have increased in power twice when you reach level 7, which is when you would ordinarily be able to take that revelation.
That discovery is min level 7, +1/3. so it goes up to +5 at level 19. Those favored class bonuses increase your effective level by 1/6. So that would give you another +1 for a total of +6. Where are you getting the extra 2 from?
As dr. kekyll said.
And as I laid out above, you can have that revelation right from level 1 with Soothsayer's Raiments.|
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Soothsayer's Raiment requires you to have the appropriate Mystery, so it doesn't really help you beyond saving you a revelation slot as a Lore Oracle.On the contrary.
First, you don't even need to be a Lore Oracle, any Oracle is fine, as you can simply use UMD to emulate the Lore mystery (since it's a class feature).
Second, unlike the Ring of Revelation, the Soothsayer's Raiment has no level requirements whatsoever, neither for the wearer nor for the Revelation that is stored inside. That allows you to have that revelation right from your 1st level, and it will have increased in power twice when you reach level 7, which is when you would ordinarily be able to take that revelation.
That discovery is min level 7, +1/3. so it goes up to +5 at level 19. Those favored class bonuses increase your effective level by 1/6. So that would give you another +1 for a total of +6. Where are you getting the extra 2 from?As dr. kekyll said.
And as I laid out above, you can have that revelation right from level 1 with Soothsayer's Raiments.
I'm fairly certain the UMD option was shot down years ago, as I looked into this when I was playing an oracle.
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i'm not sure there's anything preventing you from taking a favored class bonus to increase the effectiveness of a revelation you don't have yet. it's certainly a reasonable thing for GMs to rule, but i don't recall seeing anything in the RAW that prevents it. that would be where the other +2 comes from i imagine.
I'm assuming you took 18 levels of the fcb.
1/6th. That means 18 levels of FCB makes you count as 3 levels higher for the purpose of calculating that oracle revelation. Every 3 levels gives a +1 inherent bonus. So all 18 levels of fcb = 1 inherent bonus.
i'm not sure there's anything preventing you from taking a favored class bonus to increase the effectiveness of a revelation you don't have yet. it's certainly a reasonable thing for GMs to rule, but i don't recall seeing anything in the RAW that prevents it. that would be where the other +2 comes from i imagine.I'm assuming you took 18 levels of the fcb.
1/6th. That means 18 levels of FCB makes you count as 3 levels higher for the purpose of calculating that oracle revelation. Every 3 levels gives a +1 inherent bonus. So all 18 levels of fcb = 1 inherent bonus.
right. my mistake. then it's obviously that other thing they mentioned.
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right. my mistake. then it's obviously that other thing they mentioned.i'm not sure there's anything preventing you from taking a favored class bonus to increase the effectiveness of a revelation you don't have yet. it's certainly a reasonable thing for GMs to rule, but i don't recall seeing anything in the RAW that prevents it. that would be where the other +2 comes from i imagine.I'm assuming you took 18 levels of the fcb.
1/6th. That means 18 levels of FCB makes you count as 3 levels higher for the purpose of calculating that oracle revelation. Every 3 levels gives a +1 inherent bonus. So all 18 levels of fcb = 1 inherent bonus.
heres the direct quote from the developer
Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.
and
Whenever you gain a level in a favored class, you can
choose which favored class option you take. Unless otherwise
noted, these benefits always stack with themselves.Many of these alternate class rewards add only 1/2, 1/3,
1/4, or 1/6 to a roll (rather than 1) each time the reward is
selected, or add 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a class ability (such as
adding to a mesmerist’s number of mesmerist tricks per day
or the total number of points in a psychic’s phrenic pool).
When applying such a benefit to a die roll or class ability,
always round down (to a minimum of 0). You may thus need
to select such an option several times before the benefit takes
effect. If an alternate favored class option modifies a class
feature or ability, it can’t be taken before the character has
that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a
class feature at 6th level, a character couldn’t take a racial
favored class option that applies to that class feature until
6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn’t be
high enough to add a bonus until a later level.
Some options may have a fixed numerical limit,
right... my mistake... then it's obviously that other thing they mentioned...
was i unclear the first time?
I'm fairly certain the UMD option was shot down years ago, as I looked into this when I was playing an oracle.
Not quite. There were 2 different issues and 1 was shot down -- reflected in the language for the Ring of Revelation.
You can not get a revelation from either the Ring or the Raiment unless you are an Oracle already. UMD does not allow you to emulate being an Oracle: UMD only allows emulating a class feature, but not a class itself.
But if you are an oracle already, and just have a different mystery, then you can indeed use the Ring and Raiment and emulate having the necessary mystery (which is a class feature).
Similarly, only actual paladins can use a Holy Avenger, because it requires the class itself in order to work, not just a specific paladin class feature.
That's why I said you need to be an Oracle to use the Raiment.
p.s.: I also found a way to get 18 times the necessary Favored Class Bonus to augment this, even if you just take 1 level in Oracle (and have a different race) in your build. Ask me, if you want to know.
...an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature.
I would read the 'as a normal class feature' to mean it comes with all the benefits AND all the restrictions of said class feature. e.g, a 6th level or lower oracle with a mental acuity raiment could not actually activate said bonus class feature on the raiment (unless you can UMD class level? I can't recall).
I would read the 'as a normal class feature' to mean it comes with all the benefits AND all the restrictions of said class feature. e.g, a 6th level or lower oracle with a mental acuity raiment could not actually activate said bonus class feature on the raiment (unless you can UMD class level? I can't recall).
...an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature.
i suppose the counter argument would be that the revelation states the level you need to select not use the revelation. you can always get it early from another source. the question is whether or not this is an acceptable alternate source, and so far it seems like it works RAW. seems like it probably wasn't the intent, though, so GMs will probably interpret needing to be 7th level differently.
I would read the 'as a normal class feature' to mean it comes with all the benefits AND all the restrictions of said class feature. e.g, a 6th level or lower oracle with a mental acuity raiment could not actually activate said bonus class feature on the raiment (unless you can UMD class level? I can't recall).
First, that makes no sense at all.
Second, this would make most of the UMD skill pathetically useless.
Third, prerequisites are something entirely different from restrictions on taking something; for example, most feats [e.g., you have Point-Blank Master (Shortbow)] can only be taken once even if you fulfill all prerequisites to take it a second time [e.g. for Point-Blank Master (Crossbow)].
Fourth, using something you have depends only on fulfilling prerequisites; e.g. if you had Point-Blank Master (Shortbow), but an item you wear grants you Point-Blank Master (Crossbow) you can use both feats.
Fifth, there have been long discussions about this for nearly a decade now (seriously: February 21st 2011 is the earliest post in this regard, that I found!), FAQs have been issued and clarifications were made. Do you really think nobody would have brought this up already if it were an actual concern?
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2plbr?Soothsayers-Raiment-inquiry
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lwhs?Soothsayers-Raiment
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pzn0?Revelations-from-different-mysteries
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rvry?Oracle-equipment-advice
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pv55?Soothsayers-Raiment-Oracles-and-UMD
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxgj?gaining-a-mystery-of-another-oracle-myst erium
So no, that's where it stands:
UMD allows an oracle (of any level) to get a revelation (of any level) from a different mystery via Soothsayer's Raiment.
A Ring of Revelation would not.
A ring of revelation is a divine item attuned to a particular oracular mystery and containing a revelation associated with that mystery (see the oracle class description). While wearing the ring, an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature. The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring, and must meet the level requirements (if any) of the revelation itself; for example, a ring of revelation (combat healer) is only usable by an oracle of at least 7th level with the battle mystery. If the oracle already has that revelation and the revelation gives an ability with a limited number of uses per day, the oracle can use that ability one additional time per day. The ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle, and Use Magic Device doesn't allow a character to gain a revelation from this ring.
A lesser ring of revelation contains a revelation that has no level prerequisite or a prerequisite that is less than 6th level. A greater ring of revelation contains a revelation that requires the oracle to be 7th level or higher. A superior ring of revelation contains a revelation that requires the oracle to be 11th level or higher.
This +1 chainmail is attuned to a particular oracular mystery and contains a revelation associated with that mystery (see the oracle class description in the Advanced Player’s Guide). Its design and coloration are typically suggestive of its related mystery. While wearing the armor, an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature. The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the armor; for example, a soothsayer’s raiment (battlecry) is only usable by an oracle of battle. If the wearer already has that revelation and the revelation grants an ability with a limited number of uses per day, the oracle can use that ability one additional time per day. This ability has no effect if the armor is worn by a non-oracle.
For divination spells with a percentage-based chance of success (such as augury and divination), the wearer’s chance increases by +5.
Only Oracles can use Rings of Revelation.
Only Oracles can use Soothsayer's Raiment.The Rings of Revelation have level restrictions on the wearer and the contained revelation: Lesser Ring, Normal Ring, Greater Ring respectively
Soothsayer's Raiment has no level restrictions on either the wearer or the contained revelation.
Use Magic Device allows you to emulate a class feature, but neither a class nor a level.
Both items are from the same book -- Ultimate Equipment -- and Paizo updated the language on the Ring of Revelation, but did not do so on Soothsayer's Raiment. [in case you had any RAI worries]
First, that makes no sense at all.
That's not much of an argument.
Second, this would make most of the UMD skill pathetically useless.
You mean like wands, staves, rods, and scrolls? Oh wait... :) Before additional books added lots and lots of magic items, these were the primary reason for UMD.
Third, prerequisites are something entirely different from restrictions on taking something; for example, most feats [e.g., you have Point-Blank Master (Shortbow)] can only be taken once even if you fulfill all prerequisites to take it a second time [e.g. for Point-Blank Master (Crossbow)].Fourth, using something you have depends only on fulfilling prerequisites; e.g. if you had Point-Blank Master (Shortbow), but an item you wear grants you Point-Blank Master (Crossbow) you can use both feats.
I don't see the relevance of this to the current discussion.
Fifth, there have been long discussions about this for nearly a decade now (seriously: February 21st 2011 is the earliest post in this regard, that I found!), FAQs have been issued and clarifications were made. Do you really think nobody would have brought this up already if it were an actual concern?https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2plbr?Soothsayers-Raiment-inquiry
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lwhs?Soothsayers-Raiment
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pzn0?Revelations-from-different-mysteries
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rvry?Oracle-equipment-advice
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pv55?Soothsayers-Raiment-Oracles-and-UMD...
Irrelevant IMO. There have been hundreds (thousands?) of FAQ requests that were never answered. Many topics also receive numerous threads on them with no designer input on the topic. Lack of PDT response is not proof of intent.
The Rings of Revelation have level restrictions on the wearer and the contained revelation: Lesser Ring, Normal Ring, Greater Ring respectively
Soothsayer's Raiment has no level restrictions on either the wearer or the contained revelation.Both items are from the same book -- Ultimate Equipment -- and Paizo updated the language on the Ring of Revelation, but did not do so on Soothsayer's Raiment. [in case you had any RAI worries]
This is a fair point, though it honestly looks more like an oversite given the increasing cost on the ring version that the armor version doesn't have. But fair enough, RAW is RAW.
RAI, do you really believe they meant to allow, say a 4th level oracle (when WBL would allow them that much coin), access to a 4th (or higher) level spell effect from
Dweller in Darkness (Sp): Once per day, you cast your psyche into the void of space to attract the attention of a terrible otherworldly being. The dweller in darkness behaves in all ways as if you had cast phantasmal killer. At 17th level, the dweller in darkness can be perceived by more than one creature, as if you had cast weird. You must be at least 11th level to choose this revelation.Read the Tapestry (Sp): Once per day, you can spend 10 minutes meditating on the mysteries of the Dark Tapestry to send your mind to another plane and communicate with the strange or alien beings there. This functions as the contact other plane spell. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation.
Soul Siphon (Su): As a ranged touch attack, you can unleash a ray that causes a target to gain one negative level. The ray has a range of 30 feet. This negative level lasts for a number of minutes equal to your Charisma modifier. Whenever this ability gives a target a negative level, you heal a number of hit points equal to your oracle level. You can use this ability once per day, plus one additional time at 11th level and every four levels thereafter. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation.
...Or any number of other quite powerful abilities from different mysteries...