Silksworn Occultist and Trappings of the Warrior.
When a silksworn chooses an implement school, he does not choose a specific object. Instead, a silksworn must be wearing an ostentatious garment or magic item worth 10 gp or more of the appropriate type and in the appropriate slot: abjuration (wrists), conjuration (shoulders), divination (eyes), enchantment (neck), evocation (hands), illusion (head), necromancy (chest), and transmutation (feet). A silksworn who does not meet this requirement is treated as lacking the appropriate implement for the purpose of his class features, including spellcasting.
Shield (abjuration) and weapon (transmutation).
Am I correct in assuming that the Silksworn doesn't need their implements to be specifically worn in the magic item slots, but just their location? So that a level one Silksworn could use their fancy (but mundane) gloves for the Evocation implement school even though the gloves doesn't actually take up a magic item slot.
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Then, since the Wrist slot consists of items that would more aptly be described as on the forearm, would a Buckler be considered to be in the "wrist slot location"?
This slot consists of armbands, bracelets, bracers, gauntlets, manacles, shackles, vambraces, and other items that can worn over the wrists.
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm
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If the above is true then I'll be equipping my high heels to qualify for Trappings.
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Shields do not count as occupying your wrist slot unless they say they do. Furthermore, the blade Boot does not count as occupying your Feet slot unless it says it does.
However...you're in luck. I happened to be researching this very thing and concluded that it was indeed possible to combine the two. What you need is a Hard Light Shield (which explicitly occupies your Wrist Slot), and a pair of Brutish Boots (a scaling magic weapon that specifically occupies your feet slot).
With these two, you should be able to be a Silksworn with Trappings of the Warrior. Note that if you want to use your shield though, you might have to make due with Arcane Spell Failure, because you ARE an arcane spellcaster.
Alas, I have yet to be able to find a way to make the other Panoplies work with Silksworn.
Shields do not count as occupying your wrist slot unless they say they do. Furthermore, the blade Boot does not count as occupying your Feet slot unless it says it does.
Yes, agreed.
But since the Silksworn can use fanciful garments instead of actual magic items, the Magic Item Slots doesn't seem to be a deciding factor. Which is what I wanted to confirm with my example of the Gloves.
"Instead, a silksworn must be wearing an ostentatious garment magic item worth 10 gp or more of the appropriate type and in the appropriate slot"
I will note that shields and weapons are not ordinarily garments however. Even the bladed scarf is more of a performing scarf than a wearing scarf.
"Instead, a silksworn must be wearing an ostentatious garment ... worth 10 gp or more of the appropriate type and in the appropriate slot"
"Instead, a silksworn must be wearing an ... magic item worth 10 gp or more of the appropriate type and in the appropriate slot"
That's how it reads.
So for magic items they must be the appropriate type AND in the appropriate slot. If you decide to use ostentatious clothing instead it still has to be in that space, but doesn't occupy the slot as far as wearing other magiv items is concerned. The magic item slot matters, but since level 1 characters don't usually have many magic items there's an exception where you can wear clothes instead. This doesn't let you wear items in the wrong slot and let them qualify (eg. Bucklers don't work).
Kaouse did find a way for it to work though, good find.
That's how it reads.
So for magic items they must be the appropriate type AND in the appropriate slot. If you decide to use ostentatious clothing instead it still has to be in that space, but doesn't occupy the slot as far as wearing other magiv items is concerned.
Okay, so that sounds like exactly what I was trying to say. That the Silksworn can use magic items or mundane items. And that mundane items don't have Magic Item Slots.
A nonmagical Blade Boot would be a viable target for the Transmutation implement, no? It's worn on your feet and costs at least 10 gp.
Oh right.
Yeah I guess a blade boot is both an item of clothing and a weapon, and is worn on the feet. That sounds like it checks all the boxes to me.
The buckler doesn't work though, as it doesn't occupy a wrist slot, it specifically occupies a shield slot (which is separate). The Hard Light Shield should work there though.
A nonmagical Blade Boot would be a viable target for the Transmutation implement, no? It's worn on your feet and costs at least 10 gp.
Depends if it's ostentatious clothing. Put some rhinestones on it to be sure.
A nonmagical Blade Boot would be a viable target for the Transmutation implement, no? It's worn on your feet and costs at least 10 gp.Depends if it's ostentatious clothing. Put some rhinestones on it to be sure.
Haha
...
But seriously avr's right =P
I could see a GM disallowing this on the basis that it's the weapon (not the clothing) that brings the Bladed Boot above 10gp (which the clothes needed to be an implement). The simple fix is to buy an ostentatious version that costs 10gp more (hence the rhinestones). Paying an extra 10gp for Trappings doesn't seem that upsetting.
It definitely feels like the silksworn is supposed to be incompatible with panoplies. It's easy enough for the GM to say "you have no idea where to get a hard light shield; why would your character even have heard of it?" since it's an item in the technology guide (similarly the barbarian can't just get a chainsaw). So it's sort of in the realm of "the GM lets you have this" intrinsically.
Oh I was thinking of the Ring of Shielding when I saw the Hard Light Shield. It didn't even occur to me that it wasn't a normal item =P
Yeah that's probably not available unless you're playing Iron Gods.
If you do manage to get one remember you need BATTERIES to charge it. Batteries are 100gp and hold 10 charges, so it's basically 10gp/minute to use a Hard Light Shield (you touch the battery to the HLS as a move action to transfer 10 charges from the battery to the HLS, and the HLS holds 20 charges so you don't have to waste charges or wait for it to reach 0 charges).
While you don't technically need it to be active to get the Panoply bonus, it is VERY meta-game-y got get a tech item with no intention of actually using it just to qualify for this Panoply.
A nonmagical Blade Boot would be a viable target for the Transmutation implement, no? It's worn on your feet and costs at least 10 gp.Depends if it's ostentatious clothing. Put some rhinestones on it to be sure.
You better believe I'm going to be wearing the gaudiest shoes on the material plane if I have retractable stiletto heels.
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The buckler doesn't work though, as it doesn't occupy a wrist slot, it specifically occupies a shield slot (which is separate). The Hard Light Shield should work there though.
Let's say I'm wearing a pair of bracers passed down for generations, with an iconography depicting the time when some ancestor fought a dragon. Completely mundane but quite valuable.
If I can use these bracers as my Abjuration Implement (as intended by the class feature) then that means that the class feature doesn't revolve around the Magic Item Slots, but items worn in their location.
I think we're all in agreement on that.
So if I can wear a shield in the location of the wrists, it seems to me like it would fulfill the Silksworn's restrictions.
So if I can wear a shield in the location of the wrists, it seems to me like it would fulfill the Silksworn's restrictions.
It may seem to you like that, but it's not what it says in the rules.
It has to be an appropriate magic item in the appropriate slot. Bucklers don't go in the wrist slot, they go in the shield slot.
Should it work? Probably, I also don't see why the wrists are related to Transmutation more than other parts of the body, it's completely arbitrary ... but it's what the rules say.
If you want to put this in the General Discussion or Homebrew forum you might get a different answer, but in the Rules form it doesn't work. If you're a GM you could ask the Advice forum what they think, but if you're a GM you can allow it anyway.
If you're not a GM and you're trying to argue for a benefit, then you're taking the most powerful casting archetype of the class and trying to add the most powerful martial aspect to it as well, which is (seemingly) something intentionally locked out by the devs.
Honestly - you don't need it. My 14 STR Occultist does perfectly fine as a front-line fighter without Trappings of the Warrior. It's a powerful but ultimately unnecessary Implement choice, you have enough combat tricks without full BAB.
It has to be an appropriate magic item in the appropriate slot. Bucklers don't go in the wrist slot, they go in the shield slot.
You're confusing me here. I thought the whole point of the Silksworn is that they can use an "ostentatious garment" instead of a magic item for their implements.
So that a level one Silksworn doesn't need four different magic items to access their implements.
The point of the silksworn is that you get way more casting than other occultists. There is a cost to this, thematically "you are less good at fighting" that seems to rule out panoplies.
It has to be an appropriate magic item in the appropriate slot. Bucklers don't go in the wrist slot, they go in the shield slot.You're confusing me here. I thought the whole point of the Silksworn is that they can use an "ostentatious garment" instead of a magic item for their implements.
So that a level one Silksworn doesn't need four different magic items to access their implements.
They can use magic items or garments or a mixture of both. However if they use any magic items then they have to be the appropriate type, and in the appropriate slot. In this case you want an Abjuration Implement, so for the Silksworn that means it must occupy the wrist slot, and must be an item that is appropriate for the wrist slot - which doesnt include bucklers.
And as to why they made this so hard, PossibleCabbage pretty much nailed it.
(Woops in my previous post I said Transmutation = wrist slot. That was just me forgetting which goes where.)
The "or a magic item" clause is probably there because if it was only "an ostentatious garment" then people would wonder if you were precluded from wearing certain magic boots, belts, etc. because they are insufficiently fancy.
From level 1 your implements are going to be "fancy clothes" that you're going to eventually replace some of with magic gear.
I understand that the Silksworn is supposed to be worse at fighting, which is why its armor and weapon proficiency take a huge hit in addition to suffering from ACP. But you're not explicitly prevented from taking any Panoplies, that's just the side effect of messing with the Implements.
They can use magic items or garments or a mixture of both. However if they use any magic items then they have to be the appropriate type, and in the appropriate slot. In this case you want an Abjuration Implement, so for the Silksworn that means it must occupy the wrist slot, and must be an item that is appropriate for the wrist slot - which doesnt include bucklers.
Alright, so what about this example.
I use a couple of mundane gold-trimmed gauntlets as my Evocation implement at level 1. Gauntlets are directly called out in the description of the Hands magic item slot, so I'm assuming we're all okay with that.
Later on I find a pair of Assisting Gloves and equip them. I can still wear the gauntlets because normal gauntlets do not take up the Hands magic item slot. (Otherwise nobody with heavy/medium armor would be able to use Hands magic items). Since the Assisting Gloves can burn out I do not make them my Implement. My Evocation Implement is still the mundane Gauntlets I'm wearing on top of the gloves, but they evidently do not occupy the Hands slot.
The mundane gauntlets are fine because they're associated with the location of the Hands magic item slot, even though they do not occupy it.
Do you disagree with any of this?
It doesn't matter if I agree with it.
You've proven that all squares are rectangles, so therefore you're trying to prove that all rectangles are squares. Just because it works one way doesn't mean it works the other.
If you wear magic gloves and also mundane gauntlets they can absolutely occupy the same space. That doesn't help the fact that a +1 Buckler doesn't occupy the Wrist Slot.
The boots work because they simultaneously provide all the prerequisites at once:
- Is a weapon (Trappings) - tick
- costs 10gp (Silksworn) tick
- Is a magic item or item of clothing (Silksworn) - tick
- Occupies feet slot for Transmutation Implement (Silksworn) - tick
The buckler doesn't:
- Is a shield (Trappings) - tick
- costs 10gp (Silksworn) tick
- Is a magic item or item of clothing (Silksworn) - tick
- Occupies wrist slot for Abjuration Implement (Silksworn) - cross
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Per one of the creators of the archetype, Silksworn can not use panoplies:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ublz?Silksworn-gnome-advice#2
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ubjr&page=4?Silksworn-Occultist-Legality- Reconsideration#196
Huh, never noticed that.
So their wrist and feet slot items aren't actually implements, they're more like components. If you have fancy clothes/items in those slots you get the benefits, but you could swap one item for another in the middle of the day and still retain the benefits.
Well I guess that kills the idea entirely then.
(I was still on-board for an Silksworn Occultist with a Hard-Light Shield and a Blade-Boot in Iron Gods, but I guess that doesn't work either.)
Well I guess that kills the idea entirely then.
No, you don't understand. My own interpretation holds more value than the literal word of the creator of the archetype because it's not explicitly stated in the archetype.
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It doesn't matter if I agree with it.
It would have helped me understand exactly how we disagreed, since the Gauntlets in the example could have been replaced with the Boot Blade which you did agree would work.
I struggled to understand what exact difference you made between the Boot Blade and the Buckler, but from your recent reply I realize that you didn't allow a mundane buckler (with rhinestones) to count as an "ostentatious garment" because it's not an "item of clothing", so you assumed I would be talking about a magical buckler.
If that was the sole issue you had then I would have simply used something like a Dragonhide Buckler, which could pass as a "garment".
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Thanks for the responses, everyone! The question has been answered and it was a non-negotiable "No".
Silksworn can't use Panoplies because they do not select specific objects to serve as implements. They instead use their item slots as implements.
It would be super weird if the archetype that is all about "being so fashionable you're magic" were unable to change their clothes because they just have one set of magic clothes.
It doesn't matter if I agree with it.It would have helped me understand exactly how we disagreed, since the Gauntlets in the example could have been replaced with the Boot Blade which you did agree would work.
Fair enough.
For the rest of this post we'll Assume Taja hadn't explained it to us ...
The problem with gauntlets is that they don't occupy the wrist slot, they occupy the hand slot. Since they have to occupy the wrist slot to be a Silksworn Implement they don't work.
The problem with a buckler is that it doesn't occupy the wrist slot either, it occupies the hand slot. Since it has to occupy the wrist slot to be a Silksworn Implement it doesn't work.
Wrapping a Buckler around your wrist doesn't work either. Strapping a sword to your head doesn't make it a hat, strapping a shield do your back doesn't make it a cape, and strapping a Buckler to your wrist doesn't make it clothing.
The items (or clothing) also have to be worn in the correct place. If you're using a bladed scarf as your Enchantment Implement then it ceases to function as an Implement if you remove it in order to wield it as a weapon (but would resume functioning when you put it back around your neck). The item must be the correct type and in the correct slot. Bucklers attach to your forearm, but do NOT occupy your Wrist Slot. Since it's not a wrist-slot item if you put it in the wrist slot it would not count as being in the appropriate slot, and thus would jot count as an Implement. This may seem like semantics (and maybe it is) but it's semantics by the rules.
(Also sorry if I sounded a bit dismissive, I was trying to be matter-of-fact, but sometimes the distinction is lost.)
I don't see how the Author's words prevent the aforementioned Hard Light Shield + Brutish Boots combination from being a legal choice with Trappings of the Warrior.
Silksworns don't use normal implement objects, sure. But the implements they do use count as the necessary objects for the Panoply, in this one singular case.
The alternative is to say that the Silksworn doesn't really have any physical implements, and thus never invests mental focus into anything, never gets the resonant powers of any of their implement schools, and pays double cost for any activated focus power.
But that's a bit silly, IMHO. At that point, the archetype just doesn't function at all. Implement Mastery (it's capstone) also wouldn't function as written; you gain 4 points of Mental Focus that must be invested into your chosen Implement(s) - suggesting that Implements can be chosen and and can be invested with Mental Focus.
So it stands to reason that the Silksworn's slotted magic items behave in all important ways like implements, and thus should count for the sake of Panoplies...at least in this one case, where the requirements for both are met.
Without the author's clarification I would have let that combo work.
Essentially what the author is saying is that you don't actually invest your implements with Mental Focus, you invest the Slot with Mental Focus instead. Since the Panoplies require specific items to be invested with Focus you can't take them.
It's possible actually that you COULD take a Panoply, you just wouldn't be able to invest any Focus into it, so you wouldn't get any Resonant Powers from it, and any Focus Powers would cost double (because you'd have to spend Generic Focus for it). I'm not sure about this though, I'd have to read through everything again to check how it all interacts, what does everyone else think?
Regardless it seems like a deliberate choice that the Silksworn can't use Panoplies. The Silksworn is objectively a better caster than the base Occultist (without Panoplies) this seems to have been one of the balancing factors.
Nowhere in the archetype does it suggest that you invest mental focus into the "slot" and not "the item occupying the slot."
If anything, needing to have an item occupying the slot as a requirement suggests that it is "the item occupying the slot" that acts as your implement to be invested with mental focus. Furthermore, saying that the Silksworn does not choose "specific" objects, doesn't preclude them choosing objects to begin with, rather than slots.
It's also not the case that this was a deliberate choice for the Silksworn to not be able to use Panoplies. The Silksworn archetype actually PREDATES the introduction of Panoplies as alternatives to implements.
It's also not a balancing factor when you consider the existence of the Mage's Paraphernalia Panoply. That Panoply allows for the casting of spells on the sorcerer/wizard list, gives boosts to caster level, gives free variable metamagic, and even lets you cast those metamagic for free.
For all intents and purposes, Mage's Paraphernalia is a stronger caster than the Silksworn. Silksworn is simply more versatile due to having access to more spells. It is also legal to have both Mage's Paraphernalia AND Trappings of the Warrior on the base class. So I see no reason why a Silksworn with Trappings of the Warrior would be all that different.
Though I must admit that I would much prefer a Silksworn with the Mage's Paraphernalia Panoply instead. Performer's Accoutrements wouldn't be bad, either. Alas, I have yet to determine a way for those to work.
Nowhere in the archetype does it suggest that you invest mental focus into the "slot" and not "the item occupying the slot."
Oh you're right, I misremembered that.
It's possible that combo would work then (I'd have to look it up again), but that item isn't likely to be allowed outside of a Numerian campaign (eg. Iron Gods).
And sorry if I wasn't clear, what I meant was that a Silksworn is a stronger caster than an Occultist-without-Panoplies. I agree the Mage's Paraphernalia is probably stronger, and giving it to the Silksworn is really stretching the idea of "balance".
I'd say that a Silksworn Occultist with Mage's Paraphernalia breaks into the realm of Tier 2. Nothing is as good as 9 levels of spells, but with free Metamagic you can almost pretend to have something close to it.
I played a Gestalt game with one side being Silksworn Occultist w/ Mage's Paraphernalia while the other side was an Exploiter Pact Wizard. Since this was level 20, the wizard side definitely carried the build, but the Silksworn side offered surprisingly immense amounts of support.
Actually I'd be kind-of interested inhearing people' experiences with gestalting the Occultist. I love the class (it's my new favourite), but a lot of it's strengths seem to disappear when Gestalting.
Trappings of the Warrior is absolutely broken, but in a Gestalt game it's easy to get full-BAB on a caster. The Occultist also has a lot of Standard action abilities, kind-of limits their useful in a gestalt game.
This is all totally theory for me though, I haven't actually tried it.
What are people's thoughts and/or experiences?
Like I said, I absolutely loved my Occultist Gestalt with an Exploiter Pact Wizard. I'm more than fine with replacing Mage's Paraphernalia (which was a GM favor) with Trappings of the Warrior in this build. Having Full BAB is helpful here and there. Having higher CMD is always appreciated. And there's always the odd spell that uses your BAB, like Telekinesis.
Sure, Occultist is action-gated by a ton of Standard actions. But they also have a ton of swift action and immediate action powers, as well as one of the better move action teleports. On top of this, they have resonant powers that, once you invest mental focus into them, basically act as all-day buffs.
There was another Occultist gestalt that I only theorycrafted, but never got to actually play. It was a Haunt Collector Occultist w/ Trappings of the Warrior, gestalted with a Lamplight Investigator (I like Lamplighter a little bit better than Empiricist nowadays).
At any rate, the build was basically a monster, since it had access to ludicrous amounts of stacking attack buffs. It's defenses weren't all that bad either, thanks to perfect saves, Inspiration, Studied Defense and Occultist immediate actions.
On top of that, the Alchemist extract list fills in some of the missing pieces of the Occultist spell list. Namely, the complete lack of polymorph spells.
I'd say it was one of my scarier Gestalts, though I do still tip the hat to the Exploiter Pact Wizard Gestalt, because not much tops an Exploiter Pact Wizard.
Nice.
Yeah I honestly didn't even factor in Resonant Powers, that's a pretty great buff for anyone. Well now they're even more my favourite.
And yeah Lamplighter is definitely superior in my opinion. The Empiricist's INT-to-skills is really good, but you're already great at skills. Having bonuses that high stops the other characters from even rolling. The Lamplighter's INT-to-Initiative (and free Inspiration on the roll) is an incredible bonus that noone else gets and doesn't lock everyone else out of playing half the game. Oh and also you're still ludicrously good at skills.