So, based in part on feedback from another thread, I've spent the last several days reading up on the kineticist class. I'm not sure if it's the novel mechanics, my late hours, or if I'm just starting to get an old brain, but its left me with many questions. This thread is likely to meander all over the place, so other questions or ideas welcome, but please number off. If you're answering, please reference the number. My thoughts aren't well organized on this one at all. To be clear though, I do think I like the class, or at least its intent.
1. For the standard class: Con, Dex, Wis, Int/Str, Cha? About that order for stat priority yes? Thinking main stat, ranged attacks, buff crap Will save, skills or melee/carry capacity, dump unless wanting to be face.
2. Is the elemental form (or whatever it's called) infusion worth it? I guess reach and CMB/D bonus, but no stat boosts on an already ranged class just seems like not worth much. What am I overlooking?
3. In general, one perk of the class is that many talents boosted by burn become either all day buffs and/or toggle capable pseudo-SLA's for the day. Is that an accurate understanding?
4. From a build/theme perspective, does the capstone seem like a bit of a slap to those who stay with one element all the way through? Looked at the single element archetype, and its capstone while potentially devastating for damage, just seems so much less versatile or flavorful. I know there are always superior/inferior options, just feels like a better balance or trade of could have been achieved. (Segue: where do I find the alternate capstones I see people mention?)
5. Purely a personal preference thing, but favorite element is earth. Lots of good options for it, but I felt a little let down in the upper level talents. I'm not sure what I'm wanting. Maybe something akin to upper level druid type earth spells. I know there's earthquake, but jet feels a bit to random at times. I'm thinking something like Clashing Rocks(?), or an ability to make/sculpt/use small mountains. Maybe something with crystals/gemstones. Did I miss something awesome in the lists?
6. In general, awesome highlights of other elements? Preferably upper level.
7. If all blasts count as magic, and magic overcomes DR, doesn't that make the rare metals infusion pointless? I'm pretty sure I'm getting my levels and rules for DR mixed up, but can someone help unravel that?
8. Unless its just to have a melee fall back, why kinetic blade?
9. Does the hurricane whip infusion get the initial full circle attack (possibly hitting 24 squares/enemies) or is it just to provide a broader threatened area for a round?
10. Has anyone tried any of the 3pp elements? Were they decently balanced and fair to play?
11. Is there some way to swap out or avoid a basic kinesis? For instance, if I want an electrical theme, without having to have the ability to play with the wind/air. I know sorcerer could do this one better, just trying to understand the possibilities and limitations of this class.
More questions and ideas will follow I'm sure, but that's what shook loose at the moment.
Thanks in advance for the help.
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1: about right.
2: The kinetic form wild talent? It's for kineticists who have been seduced by the damage of kinetic blast combined with the full attack of kinetic blade/whip.
3: more or less. It's the all-day magic that it promises that creates the most attraction I think.
4: I really don't care about L20 capstones, but see Chronicles of legend for more.
5-6: Aether: fly and be invisible all day, and do fun tricks with telekinesis. Air: fly all day, long range attacks and don't do aether's nerfed damage. Fire: Max Damage. Also flight. Void: be a goth. Also, if you're a dhampir or spend a feat you can mess around with undead. Water: not particularly specialised, can do a lot of things. Wood: theme only.
7: Overcoming DR/magic doesn't overcome DR/silver or whatever. If you have an energy blast use that sure.
8: Kinetic blade can full attack.
9: Hurricane whip attacks everything within reach including adjacent once. No full attack tho'.
10: not me tho' I've heard N. Jolly's stuff is decent.
11: If you can't imagine your electricity being able to call a light breeze then you're out of luck. No option to trade it in that I know of.
avr wrote: 2: The kinetic form wild talent? It's for kineticists who have been seduced by the damage of kinetic blast combined with the full attack of kinetic blade/whip. Because of the reach? Or is there more to it?
Quote: 4: I really don't care about L20 capstones, but see Chronicles of legend for more. Link please.
Quote: 7: Overcoming DR/magic doesn't overcome DR/silver or whatever. If you have an energy blast use that sure. Spells do overcome DR, all the way up to DR/- I think. So is it that blast wild talents are only magic the way magic weapons are?
Quote: 9: Hurricane whip attacks everything within reach including adjacent once. No full attack tho'. So, it's sort of like a big, kinetic, mega Cleave. The whip has reach, so every enemy within 2 squares? For smalls or mediums, up to 24 enemies hit right? With the kinetic form's reach, up to 45? I begin to see the appeal even without the size stat boosts.
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12. I've seen "hard light" suggested as a physical option for fire. In that same vein, what about vibration (sonic) as an energy option for earth?
13. Would it somehow break RAW to reflavor metal composite blast as crystal for pure earth types? All metal has crystalline molecular structures, but not all crystals are metals. Shouldn't change anything mechanically, but if you want to be "pure" earth, crystal seems to fit better. (Yes, I know, TOPH IS A BADASS! I just also really loved Bumi.)
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Just reach which stacks with a lot of things.
The top heading on this page has the alternate capstones.
Yes, physical blasts still worry about DR.
Sonic damage usually does less than other energy if you're writing homebrew.
I really can't see fluff as being an issue.
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avr wrote:
10: not me tho' I've heard N. Jolly's stuff is decent.
Me too.
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N. Jolly wrote: avr wrote:
10: not me tho' I've heard N. Jolly's stuff is decent.
Me too. I've heard N. Jolly is a scurrilous rapscallion and a no good brigand.
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Oh. I hope that's all in good fun.
N. Jolly, any links or tips? Or is saying people's screen names on these threads like saying Voldemort in book 7?
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I was indeed joking, N. Jolly is well regarded in these parts.
Also, it's more a of Beetlejuice situation.
1. Con=Dex seems about right for me.
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1 Con=Dex and all other stats are optional depending your build and character.
Everyone seems to forget that kinetic blast do full damage to swarms, that is very useful.
This is my favorite class though I do wish that it got a lot more love, especially void and wood. Well more wild talents and less archetypes would have been nice as well.
Still mad that the void element never got to be reprinted into a hardcover book.
Also N. Jolly has a good Kineticist guide.
I even prefer dexterity slightly over constitution, though that's not the common opinion. I'd want at least 14 constitution, but anything else needed can be made up with belts and hit point options. But having an 18 in dex can free you up to go with a physical blast, and increase your accuracy for use with full attacking with kinetic blade.
My opinion is that the only thing kineticist really excels in is switch hitting. With just a single feat and a single infusion, you can be equally dangerous in melee or range.
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As a cinetist, you have basically 2 choices to do :
- select your element
- if available, select which blast to use : energy or physical
The type of blast (energy/physical) will impact the answers to your questions.
With energy blasts, il will be easier to hit (touch AC) but you will have to bypass Spell Resistance and Energy Resistance.
With physical blasts, you will have to deal with normal AC and DR.
1 : If you use an energy blast, you will hit touch AC so you can go for Cons/Dex. Il you choose a physical blast, you will hit the normal AC and you need all attack bonus, so Dex/Con
2 : Elemental form is useful only to have reach on melee attacks. So it's useless if you don't want to use kinetic blade/whip.
3 : You are right, the cinetist has some "spells" as permanent SLA or all day uses. Many don't need to use burn to use it.
5 : You are right, there isn't many available wild talents at high level. With earth, at 10 level, you will want Spark of Life and Earth Glide. At 12, "Ride the blast" is good (teleportation). If you select a secondary element at 7, you will want to get wild talents of this element. In 3PP, there is some good utilities (plane shift).
6 : I recommand to get a composite blast without half energy damage that could be resisted with energy resistance (like magma blast, resisted by fire resistance). To have versatility, I recommand to get a second element to have more choice on wild talents.
7 : Kinetic blasts count as magic weapons only and bypass only DR/Magic. Rare metal infusion allows you to bypass DR/cold iron (all feys), DR/silver (metamorph) and DR/Adamentium (constructs, buildings, doors...). It's a good infusion to take.
8 : kinetic blade is useful if an enemy with reach is at 5 feet. You can't 5 foot step to avoid an AOO when you range attacks. Kinetic blade can be useful at low levels to go in melee if you don't want malus to shoot in melee. With a whip, you threaten the area and can have AOO. At high levels with iteratives attacks and AOO, melee builds seem to have a higher DPS (but you will need a better AC).
9 : Hurricane whip is a single attack to all ennemies at range. With whip and kinetic form it's a lot of squares threaten.
10 : there is lots of 3PP contents. I highly recommend you "the Ultimate Kineticist Compendium" which is a bible of most 3pp contents(and core content). I don't know for 3pp elements but the addition to core elements are good and not overpowered. You have many (many) archetypes, infusions, wild talents and feats.It should be the official kineticist core rulebook.
11 : in the 3pp kineticist compendium, there is some alternate basic utility wild talents but i don't remember if there is an alternative for all elements (there is one for earth (Glass Canon) and water (Basic cryokinesis)).
Sysryke wrote: 12. I've seen "hard light" suggested as a physical option for fire. In that same vein, what about vibration (sonic) as an energy option for earth? That one's on me... In another topic, one thing I would have loved to see for the Kineticist (amongst other classes) is an Engergy Blast option for Earth and a Physical Blast option for Fire. I also suggested Sonic as an Energy Blast option for Aether.
Acid, and poison-related infusions, could have been an Energy Blast for Earth. Hard Light, and figment-related infusions, could have been an Energy Blast for Fire, in addition of being a counter to Void, much like a Starfinder Solarian can shift between Photon and Graviton.
Can you even believe that the Elemental Annilihator, an archetype focused on wanton destruction, cannot use Devastating Infusion with an Energy Blast? In short, FIRE cannot be used to Devastate! Hence why I suggest that each element gets both a Physical and an Energy Blast.
Kinetic blast shouldn’t worry much about DR regardless. The damage per hit is pretty good and so you will overcome the DR enough, that it won’t kill your damage if you don’t manage to bypass it. There are a couple of options for bypassing DR, but they mostly end up being too expensive in my opinion.
Kinetic blade is great because of the multiple attacks, from iterative attacks and haste. And at only 1 burn, it’s basically free to use at level 5 because of infusion specialization.
DR doesn't matter that much when you're doing 150 damage in one attack.
PCScipio wrote: DR doesn't matter that much when you're doing 150 damage in one attack. Oh? If they have 300 hps 1 point of DR matters quire a bit.
ShadowcatX wrote: PCScipio wrote: DR doesn't matter that much when you're doing 150 damage in one attack. Oh? If they have 300 hps 1 point of DR matters quire a bit. So yeah, in that 1 in 150 case, the creature might live one round longer. I don’t think that will matter almost ever. There would certainly be an exceptional case somewhere eventually, but it would be exceptional.
At 9 lvl and above with haste. With 3 melee attacks, DR*3 can be the difference between 1 round and 2 rounds to kill your target. You give one more round to your target to reply, which means it can be YOUR death.
Typically at levels above 10, you encounter frequently DR 10. So it's 30 less damage. The kineticist does great damage, he can kill a target with a full round at equivalent CR (possibly with burn). The DR can make you fail to kill in one round. You did damage 80-90% target HP.
With range blasts and only one attack per round (but better damage), the DR is less important. You will do 50-60 % damage of the target total HP.
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If you did 80-90% of the creatures HP then the rest of the party can finish it off. You know your character isn't the only one there to fight, right;)
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Artofregicide wrote: N. Jolly wrote: avr wrote:
10: not me tho' I've heard N. Jolly's stuff is decent.
Me too. I've heard N. Jolly is a scurrilous rapscallion and a no good brigand. This is accurate.
Sysryke wrote: Oh. I hope that's all in good fun.
N. Jolly, any links or tips? Or is saying people's screen names on these threads like saying Voldemort in book 7?
Honestly, the only tips I can give are just in my guide. I'm at the moment helping to design an entirely new version of 3.5 known as Corefinder, so my entire mental sphere is basically in Corefinder mode. I am mucking around with a new monk revamp though, so that's fun.
JiCi wrote:
Can you even believe that the Elemental Annilihator, an archetype focused on wanton destruction, cannot use Devastating Infusion with an Energy Blast? In short, FIRE cannot be used to Devastate! Hence why I suggest that each element gets both a Physical and an Energy Blast. I just looked over the Elemental Annilihator. It's possible I missed something, or maybe it's been errata'd, but I didn't see any restrictions on blast type. Are you sure you can't go fire with it?
Thanks to all, especially N. Jolly. I checked out the guide and it cleared some bits up. Now I really want to find links to the 3pp content, archetypes in particular. The elemental purist isn't great, and I want to see the alternatives.
On other questions/thoughts:
14. Outside of very specific builds, why ever kinetic fist and/or energize weapon? Even in a natural attacks or weapon specific build, how are these infusions going to surpass normal blasts or kinetic blade? Level one I see kinda, but after level 3 (maybe 5) don't these infusions get left in the dust?
15. Only relevant to a specific concept of mine, but outside of the evil Blighted Defiler archetype (or an extreme aversion to Weapon finesse), Str really has no purpose for a kineticist does it? Lowest priority then for elemental overflow as well?
16. Tying the above two thoughts together; while proficient, is there really any good reason for a kineticist to bother with weapons? I can only see contingency for anti-magic or some total immunity to your element(s) corner case type creature. Am I missing something?
14 & 16. Energize weapon & a bow is actually competitive with a normal kinetic blast because of the full attack and all the many feats available to bows. I did a worked example once; the EW version is better against weak targets or when receiving party buffs like a bard or haste.
15. A Str-based kinetic knight is entirely viable, and requires less workarounds than dex-based KK. But for kineticists generally it's a dump stat.
Edit: & JiCi's right. Devastating Infusion is a classic wall of text, you probably missed this bit: This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with any physical blast (but not energy blasts).
avr wrote:
15. A Str-based kinetic knight is entirely viable, and requires less workarounds than dex-based KK. But for kineticists generally it's a dump stat. I see Str for the KK surpassing Dex, but that's only for accuracy correct? Con is still your primary and damage stat right?
Thanks for the catch, I did miss that line on EA.
Sysryke wrote: avr wrote:
15. A Str-based kinetic knight is entirely viable, and requires less workarounds than dex-based KK. But for kineticists generally it's a dump stat. I see Str for the KK surpassing Dex, but that's only for accuracy correct? Con is still your primary and damage stat right? Con > Str > Dex is what I mean, yes. Something like Str 16, Dex 12, Con 15+2 race=17 at the start perhaps. Accuracy matters, especially if you're using a physical kinetic blade.
16. A system-smart kineticist keeps a weapon or two around for AoO's and threatened area...and the occasional corner case (for example, wanting to fight without revealing your special abilities to onlookers.)
pad300 wrote: 16. A system-smart kineticist keeps a weapon or two around for AoO's and threatened area...and the occasional corner case (for example, wanting to fight without revealing your special abilities to onlookers.) I like the cestus. Keeps the hand free and doesn't need to be drawn.
Melkiador wrote: pad300 wrote: 16. A system-smart kineticist keeps a weapon or two around for AoO's and threatened area...and the occasional corner case (for example, wanting to fight without revealing your special abilities to onlookers.) I like the cestus. Keeps the hand free and doesn't need to be drawn. Yep, cestus, spiked gauntlet both very popular...
Thanks for those clarifications. If I'm following correctly, melee weapon focused kineticist isn't a thing (at least not for good tactics), but bow can combo well; and, having a melee weapon is prudent for the same reason it's almost always a good call to have a ranged attack choice. Never get left without an option to do something.
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