A friend at our table wants to give a shot at a bomber, but he's concerned about accuracy.
He's hesitating between taking ranger archetype for hunter's aim, or investigator archetype for devise stratagem.
Which would you choose ? Which might be the most accurate (assuming there are secondary targets if the stratagem rolls poorly) ?
As an aside, does hunted shot work with bombs, i.e. are they a ranged weapon with 0 reload once you take Quick Bomb ?
Thanks for your input !
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Hunted Shot doesn't work with thrown weapons. And Quick Bomb doesn't reduce the reload, it allows you to draw a bomb and shoot it in the same action.
Devise a Stratagem is always nice, even if one of the strength of bombs is to deal damage even on a miss (especially if you take the splash increasing feats).
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Dual-Weapon Warrior with the Dual Thrower Feat allows you to throw two bombs per rond without too much MAP. Make the first bomb a Bottled Lightning to negate the -2 on the second bomb.
You can also combine a bomb with a poisoned bolt from a hand crossbow or maybe some returning throwing weapon.
You'll also need an Independant Valet Familiar to "pull" one bomb for free every round.
Wow, didn't think about dual-thrower. That's pretty awesome, although it might deplete his bombs pretty quickly and is very feat-intensive.
Quick Bomber, Far lobber are feat taxes.
Calculated splash is pretty useful, as is directional bomb.
So he could see himself go half-elf with elf atavism for the dedication, but taking a familiar might stretch his resources pretty thin at low level.
Something like:
Human (Half-elf)
Racial feat: Elf Atavism (Ancient Elf)(Dual warrior dedication)
Alchemist Feat 1: Quick Bomber
Alchemist Feat 2: Far Lobber
Alchemist Feat 4: Dual Thrower
Racial Feat 5: Nature ambition (Alchemical familiar)
Alchemist Feat 6: Calculated splash or directional bomb
At level 5, when he'll be able to use dual thrower, he'll have 9 batches so maybe 15 bombs and 4 different batches.
Edit: Also, at level 7 when he gets perpetual, his action economy will be pretty messed up.
- 1 action for quick alchemy
- 2 actions for dual thrower.
Wait, how does this even interact with quick bomber ?
Thanks for those clear explanations, that's awesome.
I spoke a bit with him and he'll probably pass the dual warrior archetype, too many shenanigans for his taste. So we're back to either ranger or investigator.
Ranger seems a bit action-intensive, though, what with switching hunter's prey every time.
Ranger doesn't work at all with bombs. You can't use Hunted Shot with bombs. The only thing you can get is a bonus to range thanks to Hunt Prey, but it's not what your player is looking for.
Unfortunately, investigator archetype doesn't let you use your Int to hit. You could, however, use the Investigator class as the base and get the Alchemist archetype. Then you get better proficiency in bombs (as martial weapons) as well as using Int to hit. But you lose out on the more powerful bomb abilities.
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Unfortunately, investigator archetype doesn't let you use your Int to hit. You could, however, use the Investigator class as the base and get the Alchemist archetype. Then you get better proficiency in bombs (as martial weapons) as well as using Int to hit. But you lose out on the more powerful bomb abilities.
Yes, the best way to play an alchemist is to play another class altogether.
On a serious note, talk to your GM using house ruled to buff the Alchemist. Here are some good ones.
Ranger doesn't work at all with bombs. You can't use Hunted Shot with bombs. The only thing you can get is a bonus to range thanks to Hunt Prey, but it's not what your player is looking for.you don't go ranger for Hunted Shot, you go for Hunter's Aim for accuracy and Hunt prey for range.
The good thing is the dedication feat gives you something (range) and the followup gives you Accuracy.
I find it quite flexible in the sense that it gives you outs:
low level enemy closeby? no need to waste actions
low level enemy far away? just 1 action to double your range (and you have an action left which can be converted to Aim if you do not have to move and etc)
high level enemy? hunt+Aim, and since he's high level there's good chance he doesn't die immediately, so you can keep hitting him with Aimed shots without speniding additional actions in the followup turns for Hunt prey again.
I see. Not crazy bonuses then.
Then you can also go Archer. It gives you an at will attack with the bow. You can take point blank shot (as long as you keep your bow at hand) and Archer's Aim (at higher level, but I think Point Blank Shot is more useful). For long range combat you have a Longbow, the best long range weapon. And bombs when the enemy is within 30 feet.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A friend at our table wants to give a shot at a bomber, but he's concerned about accuracy.
Your friend is right to be concerned, but it doesn't sound like concern for the right reasons.
Are they starting with 16 DEX and bumping it at Level 5? If so, they're only -1 from Levels 1-4, compared to a fully maxed DEX-based combatant, and equal to a maxed-DEX from Levels 5-9. It's a problem, but a minor one; certainly not one that warrants taking multiple feats to cover, and arguably not one that warrants taking even one feat to cover.
The problem with accuracy is actually at higher levels, because alchemical weapons expertise (Level 7) never goes to master. This seems like an oversight, and one that I had honestly expected to be fixed in the errata before the errata came out (that it wasn't fixed suggests it's intentional).
That being said, none of the alchemist feats at level 2 are particularly enticing, so there's very little downside to taking a ranger dedication (investigator doesn't work for the reasons others have pointed out). Picking up a spellcasting dedication (wizard, witch) is also popular, but doesn't help accuracy. I've always wondered if rogue dedications could allow fun shenanigans, but it also has nothing to do with accuracy (unless you didn't take Stealth as a skill, then a rogue dedication would allow you to use the hide-based strategies; I'm assuming that's baseline for the basic alchemist).
The problem with dedications is that at later levels, the alchemist feats are very good, and you won't have too many opportunities to further your dedication. Hence, the "multiple feats" comment above - complicated solutions that involve taking chained dedication feats may improve your accuracy, but sacrifice a lot of fun stuff that happens later for alchemists.
I went wizard dedication for my Class Feat 2 (witch didn't exist when I was Level 2) which helps on the resource conservation side, but ranger was a very close second. The wizard cantrips are nice, but the action economy is wonky (I almost never have two actions to Cast a Spell), and the wizard DC is only ever trained unless I want to sink more feats into it. If I could go back, I'd choose ranger.
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I see. Not crazy bonuses then.
+2 to hit is actually crazy good. My maths might be off, but an alchemist with quicksilver and hunter's aim actually has the best accuracy of the game, 1 more than an equal level fighter (well, till level 13 at least).
investigator doesn't work for the reasons others have pointed out.
I don't see where they pointed out it doesn't work. You cannot use INT instead of DEX but that's not the point. It's all about Devise stratagem.
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+2 to hit is actually crazy good. My maths might be off, but an alchemist with quicksilver and hunter's aim actually has the best accuracy of the game, 1 more than an equal level fighter (well, till level 13 at least).
I see. Not crazy bonuses then.
+2 to hit is crazy good. +2 to hit for an action is not crazy good at all. You'll get more mileage out of 2 Strikes.
So, it's just to use less reagents at the cost of less damage.
Hunted Shot doesn't work with thrown weapons.
It doesn't work with bombs. It CAN work with thrown weapons and does work with the Shuriken [a thrown weapon]. It's all about the reload.
I actually just theorycrafted a build
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/k0ts78/alchemist_with_staff_ of_divination/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
The general idea is take Wizard Dedication + Basic Spellcasting, ideally ancient elf works best if you want to be an elf. Otherwise you are just down a feat as another class which is perfectly fine.
The basic idea is use true strike + bombs on important targets. Main uses would be acid flask/important bottled lightning.
At level 4 you just buy a staff of divination and have up to 2 true strikes per day.
At level 6 you have up to 4 true strikes per day.
At level 8 you have up to 7 true strikes per day
The best part is you will have the option for true strike spam or slot in more utility spells.
True strike of course is limited but rolling two attack when it counts could be a big help. I could be wrong but "I think" true strike adds roughly +5 on average which is amazing in theory. In practice I have no idea.
Also wanted to say this particular build only requires 2 feats total. It would be tough fitting in any other spellcasting feats though.
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I do not think dual thrower is as good as people are making it out to be. Dual thrower suffers from the same (and probably worse) problem as dual wielders: drawing weapons/bombs, and it does not interact with quick bomber, which is better than dual thrower. To make dual thrower work, you need to spend a round getting bombs out before throwing them in the next, which is not worth it.
I think devise a strategem is probably the greatest assurance for making bombs hit.
I do not think dual thrower is as good as people are making it out to be. Dual thrower suffers from the same (and probably worse) problem as dual wielders: drawing weapons/bombs, and it does not interact with quick bomber, which is better than dual thrower. To make dual thrower work, you need to spend a round getting bombs out before throwing them in the next, which is not worth it.
You spend one action to pull one bomb, have your Independant Valet familiar hand you another one without costing you any action, then throw both with Dual-Thrower. It's a specific build but really not that bad. You can also save a bomb and an action by throwing something like a returning dagger instead.
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Playing an alchemist/ranger right now, and I gotta say it feels pretty good.
Hunt prey serves as a pseudo range booster, and Hunter's Aim brings up your accuracy a pretty decent amount. It doesn't work with quick bomb though, so you have to use the familiar with independent+valet (imo, the familiar is better in almost every circumstance anyway)
Personally, I prefer a single, more accurate hit to lobbing two bombs, though idk, might change my tune when perpetual bombs is available.
Another thing worth looking at (potentially) is wizard dedication and using a staff of divination for true strike. There might not be shifting staves anymore, but you aren't using it as a weapon anyways
All of you taking 2 dedication feats ... what alchemist feats are you giving up?
(Are you not fixing your math? :D)
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All of you taking 2 dedication feats ... what alchemist feats are you giving up?
(Are you not fixing your math? :D)
Play with the Free Archetype option and you aren't using any alchemist feats. ;)
you do lose on directional bombs though so there is an investment
I just wanted to make sure it was clear to everyone that there aren't that many weak levels past Level 2.
(I think there was another alchemist thread where we've already disagreed on how good the specific feats are, so I'll avoid specifying which feats are Feat-worthy and focus on the aggregate number.)
There are zero Feat-worthy Alchemist class feats at Level 2, agreed. But between Levels 4, 6, and 8, there are 4 Feat-worthy feats (I'd argue 5, actually, but let's agree there are at least 3), and then at 10/12/14, there's arguably one opening, but definitely not more than 1, and maybe even 0.
No matter which feat you think is the weakest from 4-14, you're either giving up one pretty good Alchemist class feat; or, delaying a whole bunch of really good feats by 2 levels; or, you're waiting until Level 10-14 to get that second dedication feat. You're also giving up the opportunity for other Level 2 dedications from the APG that give an immediate benefit without requiring a second dedication feat - Medic, for instance.
I'd rather lock myself into a 16 DEX / 18 INT character at creation (which is a minor negative that nobody's brought up - requiring two high values ends up really restricting options on backgrounds and personality) and take the -1 for half the levels.
At quick look I see Far Lobber>Wizard Dedication>Calculated Splash>Basic Spellcasting. I feel like that could be worth it.
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There are zero Feat-worthy Alchemist class feats at Level 2, agreed. But between Levels 4, 6, and 8, there are 4 Feat-worthy feats (I'd argue 5, actually, but let's agree there are at least 3), and then at 10/12/14, there's arguably one opening, but definitely not more than 1, and maybe even 0.
No matter which feat you think is the weakest from 4-14, you're either giving up one pretty good Alchemist class feat; or, delaying a whole bunch of really good feats by 2 levels; or, you're waiting until Level 10-14 to get that second dedication feat. You're also giving up the opportunity for other Level 2 dedications from the APG that give an immediate benefit without requiring a second dedication feat - Medic, for instance.
I'm pretty sure your list would not be mine. I think there's lots of place for dedications. My Alchemist goes with 2 of them, for a total of 5-6 feats when she will be level 20.