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Good evening ladies and gentlemen! I'm seeking some marvelous people to help me out with fleshing out an occultist build. This is the second time I've tried my hand at one, but the first was easy due to rolling stats (and rolling well). I'm wanting this guy to be melee(2handed) damage support with utility casting, and making use of his implements powers for versatility.
-20pt buy
Looking at either elf or half-elf- (human is a possibility, just seem less useful)
Pre racials-
Str: 14 (level 8 + 12)
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 15 (level 4, level 16 and a tome maybe)
Wis: 12
Cha: 08
or
Str: 16
Dex: 13 (level 8)
Con: 12
Int: 15 (level 4, 12, 16)
Wis: 10
Cha: 08
The general build is as follows-
Feats-
1- Power attack or toughness
3- weapon focus or power attack
5- Free (considering extra focus to make more use of focus powers)
7- Free (considering extra focus to make more use of focus powers)
the rest are undecided
For implements, I was thinking to have the 3 following schools and powers at level 2.
1. Transmutation implement, Conjuration implement (or evocation, unsure atm)
2.(level 2), Divination Implement
6. Evocation
10. Abjuration or Necromancy
Powers- (aside from those given via implement)
1-Size Alteration
Advancement would look like this-
3rd level- if conjuration I'd pick up flesh mend (free scaling cure wounds for 1 focus point? neat)
5- Quickness (self haste and doubled the modifiers? Yesh)
7- Mind over matter (fly) + Side step (arcanist dimension slide? sweeet)
9- Haven't looked this far.
Weapon of choice is the Elven Curved blade.
Now, What do you all think? Will I survive dungeon delving, or die horribly?
14 Str/14 Dex is asking to use a reach weapon and combat reflexes I'd have thought. 16 Str to start with is more the pure damage support.
Note that sword-and-board is the obvious way to take a melee occultist due to trappings of the warrior wanting you to carry a shield. Still, the way you're going works fine - I'd go conjuration over evocation because 1/barbed chains 2/glitterdust is a great way to start a spellcasting career and conjuration spells keep being good later too. Remember that as an occultist you need to plan your spells a bit.
I don't have time to go through everything, but here's a couple of notes:
1. Your first stat option has a 19 point buy, so you might want to see if you can improve it slightly.
2. I don't like 12 CON on a front-line character, just sayin.
3. Power Attack - check the maths but on my 8th level occultist it adds something like 0.02 damage per round. The penalty to hit isn't worth it since I'm getting so much damage from Legacy Weapon (Bane).
My stats at level 1 were S-14, D-14, C-15, I-17 (15+2), W-12, C-7. I went Half-Elf for the Elf FCB without the CON penalty. I thought about an exotic weapon but took the +2Will save trait instead.
I'll check back in later when I have more time.
Yay Occultists ^_^
Trappings of the Warrior + Shield Focus + Shield Brace is the classic way to make a reach melee occultist if your GM is being a stickler about "you need to wield the shield to use the panoply." Takes a little bit to come online, but you don't need to actually wield a shield until level 6 when you take the panoply as your 4th implement.
Unfortunately doesn't work the curve blade, but a half-elf can get fauchard proficiency for free.
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thanks for the fast replies, couple notes-
I am leaning more towards the 2nd array, starting with 16 str lets me drop my transmuation implement on it for an 18 total and it scales better IMO (due to making use of every +1 stat from levels)
Honestly, I went with the curved blade for style and just because I've found it to be a great weapon. (especially on my rogues, love 1 1/2 dex on rogues.)
A reach build could certainly work, the only downside is I fell into the generic fantasy trap of imagining the guy wielding a sword of sorts. That said, I could use most any other weapon really. I also forgot about the dual minded trait, that is tempting if I go with half-elf.
I'll look into the trappings of the warrior, haven't heard about it until now. A longsword would work just fine thematically. And if what Mr. Charisma says is true that power attack is not much of a damage upgrade, then no big loss there. If I go this route, I'd likely go for
1- toughness
3- weapon focus
5- extra focus
7- extra focus power.
Toughness would help counteract the 10-12 con mod.
TRAPPINGS OF THE WARRIOR is a Panoply (Implement - sort of) that makes you a full BAB character. Like, actually a full BAB character. It's rediculius.
If you need to ask how Panoplies work let us know.
Personally I think the Occultist is a strong enough combatant without it (my occultist has 14 STR and no combat feats and she's doing just fine), but if you're looking to be a more martial-focused character it is a pretty huge buff.
I don't know how your games go, but I really do want to stress that starting with 10 CON as a front-line character sounds like suicide. Even with Toughness. Your games might play slightly less deadly than mine (or maybe you have better scoutong/party-cohesion/etc, so you're more portected), but I'm usually way more comfortable with a little less offence and a little more defence.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42bjm?Occultist-Build#1
The above link is my kick at the can of a melee occultist build... I recommend Necromancy as one of your 2 implements at 1st level; the expendable combat buddy from Necromantic Servant is very nice.
Now in link form
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they way I look at it, Con is not that much of a defense. Take a 10 con, vs a 14 con. Thats a difference 2 hp a level, I admit, I rarely make a character with a con lower than 12 myself, so I am hesitant. But, thats only if I go for elf due to the -2 con.
I'd be banking on- higher AC, armor, shield, abjuration bonuses, conjuration healing, and, at level 10 mirror image, and being able to pick where and when I want to get into, or out of, melee with side step teleporting. The biggest issue for me is the lower fort save.
I've found 12 con is acceptable in most situations. As the few times I've had a character die, the extra hp wouldn't have made a difference.
I like the idea of the trappings of the warrior, I also like the trappings of the mage one, and it gives me an idea for a caster focused occultist based on elemental energy damage.
As said, I don't see him being the one to take the brunt of the enemy if I can help it, if I can't, well, I may be up the creak. But as I said, that usually isn't changed by more hp.
If I do decide to go for the panoplies, do you think power attack would be worth investing in?
they way I look at it, Con is not that much of a defense. Take a 10 con, vs a 14 con. Thats a difference 2 hp a level, I admit, I rarely make a character with a con lower than 12 myself, so I am hesitant. But, thats only if I go for elf due to the -2 con.
I'd be banking on- higher AC, armor, shield, abjuration bonuses, conjuration healing, and, at level 10 mirror image, and being able to pick where and when I want to get into, or out of, melee with side step teleporting. The biggest issue for me is the lower fort save.
I've found 12 con is acceptable in most situations. As the few times I've had a character die, the extra hp wouldn't have made a difference.
I like the idea of the trappings of the warrior, I also like the trappings of the mage one, and it gives me an idea for a caster focused occultist based on elemental energy damage.
As said, I don't see him being the one to take the brunt of the enemy if I can help it, if I can't, well, I may be up the creak. But as I said, that usually isn't changed by more hp.
If I do decide to go for the panoplies, do you think power attack would be worth investing in?
Con is a massive defense in the first 5 or 6 levels. Its often the difference between an unlucky crit or high roll dropping you in the fight or not. It does get less relevant later, but builds that ignore the challenges you face GETTING to the levels where they take off tend not to actually reach those levels outside of a discussion or forum.
If you get trappings of the warrior I'd definitely get PA. It's less benefit than with a curveblade, sure, but you need some extra damage more than with a curveblade. 1*Str is less than the 1.5*Str of a curveblade and you average a point or so less on the die as well.
Getting more than one panoply isn't doable really. Each one costs an implement slot, besides having different implement prereqs.
Yeah if you're going Trappings then Power Attack is probably worth it. You'll be hitting as often with power attack as a non-trappings-Occultist would without Power Attack, but you'll be getting bonus damage. Also you'll be getting more bonus damage than the non-trappings occultist would since your BAB is higher.
Getting 2 Panoplies can work by level 14 (which isn't too late) unless one of your panoplies is the Mage's Paraphernalia, in which case you have to wait till level 18. A Panoply wouldn't necessarily be a bad choice at 18, but it's certainly not something you'd base your class around.
Regarding CON, 12 extra HP by level 6 is probably enough to keep you standing for one extra attack, and 4 more CON means 4 more rounds before you bleed out if you do go down (as well as +2 to checks to stabilize). It may not look like much on paper but 4 extra CON makes a big difference.
If you have someone else to tank some hits for you it may not matter so much (I'm playing the only front-liner in both my current games, so it probably matters more to me).
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Con is a massive defense in the first 5 or 6 levels. Its often the difference between an unlucky crit or high roll dropping you in the fight or not. It does get less relevant later, but builds that ignore the challenges you face GETTING to the levels where they take off tend not to actually reach those levels outside of a discussion or forum.
I tend to disagree with this save in regards to critical hits. While, yes, extra HP can matter the first 1-2 levels, playing smart has served me very well in surviving fights. This is coming from someone that played chained rogue often(before unchained), and I'll tell ya I hated some big bads as that class. But, we love what we love. Then the magus and eldritch scoundrel came along and, well. heh. anyway, many of my rogues survived the first few levels by being smart, and not just going toe to toe with enemies. It actually got MORE dangerous for them the higher levels we got.
That is also my general anecdotal experience. I've only ever had PCs die at level 1, due to crits. (usually they just go unconscious, but I've had a couple get crit by Orcs with a Power attacking battle axe) and levels 11+ due to rocket tag starting to come online. I have NEVER once had a character actually bleed out and die.
But I do understand the sentiment in your statement.
Hmmm...
Ruin Reading is quite flavourful and potentially useful. It replaces other abilities that are the same, so I think this is a fine trade.
Trap sense isn't great unless there are a LOT of traps. Losing a Focus power here hurts.
Crumbling Strike is a 1/day Disintegrate tied to an attack. The way I read it is that this is added damage (so it's like a spellstrike), which I think makes this great. If you don't get weapon damage as well it' a bit less great. I think it's an upgrade on what it replaces, especially since you still get the first Outsider Contact, you just lose the upgrades.
Honestly, it looks pretty good. The only thing I'd do is make my GM read Ruin Reading, because that ability could create a lot of work for the GM, and if they're not expecting it they could get pretty flustered (it would also make it significantly less useful if they don't have any info ready).
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Okay, I've jimmied some things around in the build, Here is what I have so far now. We are starting level 1.
Half-elf
Ability scores:
Str: 14 (16)
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 18 (+2 from elf)
Wis: 12
Cha: 08
Alternatively-
Str: 15 (17) (level 4 goes her, rest go to Int?)
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 18 (+2 from elf)
Wis: 10
Cha: 08
HP: 12
AC:18 (when using shield)
Weapons-
Longsword
heavy shield
chain shirt
Guirsarme
Chakrams (for cheap ranged options early on)
Traits:
Trapfinder
Student of Philosophy
Drawback: Undecided
Additional trait: Undecided.
Feats:
1- Toughness
3- Weapon focus OR Extra focus power/Extra focus (I'm not sure which is better for me)
5- Extra Focus
7- Extra Focus Power
9- Power attack
Implements:
Transmutation, Conjuration
Focus Powers-
Legacy weapon
Servitor
Size Alteration (also looking at Psychic Fog)
Spells:
Knacks:
Create water, Purify food and drink OR mage hand.
1st level:
Unseen servant, or Cure Light wounds
Lead blades Or Enlarge person. - Lead blades would stack with enlarge from focus power, making 1d10-> 3d6, or 2d4-> 2d8? Enlarge lets me use spell slots instead of focus to grow.
Build-
2nd level Implement- Divination or abjuration, abjuration gives me shield and resist energy. However, Divination gives me detect magic (a busted spell), and comprehend languages/detect spell access. Hard choice.
6th level implement- Pick up Abjuration or Diviniation, whichever I did not grab at 2nd level.
10th level- Trappings of the warrior (if I take it) or illusion.
14- Abjuration again (higher level spells are great for occultist in abjuration).
Reason why I prioritize divination-
The implement allows its bearer to notice that which can’t easily be seen. The implement grants a +1 insight bonus on Perception checks per 2 points of mental focus stored in it, to a maximum bonus equal to the occultist’s level. If the occultist is 3rd level or higher and stores at least 3 points of mental focus in it, the implement also grants low-light vision. If the occultist is 5th level or higher and stores at least 6 points of mental focus in it, the implement also grants darkvision 60 feet. (If the bearer already has darkvision, the implement increases the range of the darkvision by 30 feet.) If the occultist is 7th level or higher and stores at least 9 points of mental focus in it, the implement also grants the effects of see invisibility. If the occultist is 13th level or higher and stores at least 12 points of mental focus in it, the implement also grants blindsense 60 feet. If the occultist is 19th level or higher and stores at least 15 points of mental focus in it, the implement also grants blindsight 30 feet.
It is also the reason I like to try to stack focus. I'm not sure if its -worth- it though. I'd probably stop putting focus in it at 9 points.
Ok now you've gone the other way - both your stat-arrays are 22 points worth. You can make either of them work by dropping your CHA to 7, or the first one could work if you drop your WIS to 10.
Reguarding spell choices, remember you don't need 10 different ways to improve your damage. Stacking Enlarge Person and Lead Blades and Legacy Weapon (Bane) will get you to 4d4+2d6+X damage, but if you skip Enlarge and Lead Blades you're still at 2d4+2d6+X damage, it's only about 6 damage less. You're still doing a huge chunk of damage but you've spent 2 less spells (or 1 less spell and 1 less Mental Focus) and you're getting into the fight a round or two earlier. You seriously don't need all the buffs, one will do.
Regarding Implements, I went: (Winifrrd is a a Haunt Collector)
1. Transmutation, Abjuration
2. Conjuration (Haunted, Champion Spirit)
6. Divination
At level 10 I'll probably take Necromancy (we're playing Carrion Crown so it's thematic, I probably should have taken it at 6 but I wanted divination).
Both Transmutation and Divination want a big chunk of your Mental Focus investment. The way I handle this is that I have two "Loadouts": One for combat heavy days (max everything but Divination), and one for other days (max Divination Resonant power and spread the rest out fairly evenly). This is kinda fun because it actually plays fairly differently depending on my loadout.
Regarding the Divination Implement: The main thing I've found super useful is being able to give it to my party to give them dark vision (I already have it from a Half-Elf alternate racial trait). Being able to hand-off dark vision - or occasionally see invisibility - to another character who's more equipped to handle whatever needs handling is super useful. I took Danger Sight so when I'm using my non-combat loadout I can still be useful in combat in a pinch.
Also, Sudden Speed (Transmutation) plus Sidestep (Conjuration) means you can get anywhere on the battlefield in a single move action. It's pretty amazing.
I didn't even think of Heavy Armour with Sudden Speed, that's quite good actually. I'm using a Mithral Breastplate for speed (and eventually the MENTAL FOCUS armour property), but +3 AC might be worth more.
And yes I also use a Lucerne Hammer. Resch works great with Occultists (too many standard action powers), and having 2 damage types means you have more options for Legacy Weapon (eg. DISRUPTION when fighting a hoard of undead).
Lucerne doesn't really fit the sword theme though.
Maybe a Bardiche could be flavoured as a long handled sword?
Another option would be a Reliquarian with the Animal/Feather (or Scalykind) domain for an Animal Companion. Boon Companion at level 5 and you've got a fully leveled companion with the Share Spells feature. While mounted you can wield a Lance and Buckler for 1.5x Str dmg, reach, and AC bonus.
The downside is losing an Implement School at level 1 and basing your Mental Focus on wisdom. As a melee occultist this might not result in as much lost Focus though, and Elf FCB helps a lot.
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Since this is a dungeon heavy setting, I will pass on the mounted aspects.
I also do not want to trade out any implements, occultist spell selection is very limited already. Especially if I take trappings of the warrior.
I'm actually thinking of just ignoring divination implement until level 14. Because I was thinking of picking up necromancy for access to the undead servant + servitor from conjuration.
So-
1- transmutation, conjuration
2- abjuration
6- trapping of the warrior (this does not count as an implement for spells does it?)
10- necromancy
14- abjuration
Or
1- transmutation, conjuration
2- divination
6- abjuration
10- trappings of the warrior
14- necromancy or abjuration.
Another idea is to just ignore the panoply, and pick up illusion.
So many choices. So many good choices... I actually hate it haha.
Trappings does count as an implement for spells. You get a spell of every leve you van cast, and you van choose from both transmutation and abjuration spells for that implement (so your trappings spells could be 2 abjuration spells and 1 transmutation spell). It's more or less a straight upgrade in that respect.
Remember though that if you give your Implement to a friend (eg. Transmutation implement to give a friend a STR bonus) you'd have to make concentration checks to cast spells from that implement or from the panoply, and that those spells are cast at minimum level.
But yeah as long as you have all your stuff it's basically all good.
I also do not want to trade out any implements, occultist spell selection is very limited already.
Also just a note on this. Occultists start with less spells known, but by the end of the game they get more than any other spontaneous caster (except sorcerers with the Human FCB).
At level 10 you'll see a huge jump where you get a new Implement and a new spell-level at the same time, so you end up getting 9 new spells known all at once.
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I also do not want to trade out any implements, occultist spell selection is very limited already.Also just a note on this. Occultists start with less spells known, but by the end of the game they get more than any other spontaneous caster (except sorcerers with the Human FCB).
At level 10 you'll see a huge jump where you get a new Implement and a new spell-level at the same time, so you end up getting 9 new spells known all at once.
I see, I was more talking about not only spells known(total), but the limited selection process of those spells.
Example- spell levels 4/5 for occultist has a lot of great Abjuration spells, however, you can only select one form the list unless you have Abjuration twice.
The fact that a panoply does count as an implement is good knews though. As two abjuration choices should do just fine.
What would be your recommendation for the last implement at 14 (AP goes to 17), necromancy or illusion?
At the very endgame illusions work less than you'd like. Far too many enemies are immune or see thru your invisibility or something.
I also do not want to trade out any implements, occultist spell selection is very limited already.Also just a note on this. Occultists start with less spells known, but by the end of the game they get more than any other spontaneous caster (except sorcerers with the Human FCB).I see, I was more talking about not only spells known(total), but the limited selection process of those spells.
Example- spell levels 4/5 for occultist has a lot of great Abjuration spells, however, you can only select one form the list unless you have Abjuration twice.
The fact that a panoply does count as an implement is good knews though. As two abjuration choices should do just fine.
Yeah if you have one or two schools that you think you'll want more spells from then Panoplies really help this. I think Transmutation and Abjuration both have levels where you'd like more than one spell, so Trappings helps a lot there too.
Also, if you REALLY want lots of spells from a certain school, you can choose the same school twice. This isn't usually as good as picking a new school because the Resonant powers don't stack, but it can be worth it. Transmuation is a good example of one that can be picked more than once since it has a lot of useful spells and you could even use the Resonant power on 2 different stats and see a benefit. Abjuration would be terrible for this though. Either way Trappings is likely the superior option.
At the very endgame illusions work less than you'd like. Far too many enemies are immune or see thru your invisibility or something.
It does have mirror image though
In a game run by a friend (which I'm not in) a couple of characters are discovering that mirror image after working for ages has stopped being reliable due to enemies seeing thru illusions in the last few sessions of their game.
In a game run by a friend (which I'm not in) a couple of characters are discovering that mirror image after working for ages has stopped being reliable due to enemies seeing thru illusions in the last few sessions of their game.
Yeah, but you still wanna layer defenses. maybe SOME of what you fight is immune to illusions but at the point EVERYTHING you fight is immune to non mind affecting illusions you're kinda getting a raw deal
Transmuation is a good example of one that can be picked more than once since it has a lot of useful spells and you could even use the Resonant power on 2 different stats and see a benefit. Abjuration would be terrible for this though. Either way Trappings is likely the superior option.
I should clarify, Abjuration would be terrible for the Resonant power, but if you think the spells are good enough it could be worth it.
Also if you do think you'll want to double up on spell schools the HAUNT COLLECTOR archetype lets you replace resonant powers with Medium Spirit boons (kinda). This means you wouldn't have the problem of redundant powers. It won't stack with the Occult Historian though, so if you like that archetype then it's not necessary.