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So planning out some stuff, want to make sure I understand how Fabricate works from a scroll
Character has a Craft weapons at +13 (Valet Familiar, Int, Skill, masterwork tools)
Wants to make a quarterstaff out of Mitheral and Darkwood (I know this is not allowed, but cool idea, in play will be darkwood but cost more gold for Rule of cool)
Level 4 caster with a fabricate scroll. Needs 440 gold worth of darkwood and Mitheral (1/3 the cost of the staff normaly), the scroll, some time
After gathering everything together he goes to his workshop/forge/whatever and casts the scroll
This is where I start to get myself confused. The scroll would be DC 10, so as a CL 4 I would need a 6 to succeed, but can take 10 to auto pass.
I now need to make crafting rolls
One for the staff (DC 12)
two for Masterwork, as it is a duel headed weapon (DC 20)
All 3 can be done as "Take 10's)
I accept that as a role play aspect my character spent 1565 gp for a 640 gp weapon mechanically...
I missed the caster level could not take 10, thank you for that
Is the character distracted in this situation however? That he needs to make multiple checks to do a single project is not the same as being distracted by it, is it (all would be craft weapon)? For that matter I am not sure if it would be 3 rolls or one (at the highest level)
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I missed the caster level could not take 10, thank you for that
Is the character distracted in this situation however? That he needs to make multiple checks to do a single project is not the same as being distracted by it, is it (all would be craft weapon)? For that matter I am not sure if it would be 3 rolls or one (at the highest level)
You are casting a spell, so you aren't concentrating on making the item. Take 10 requires you to be undistracted.
What about if it would be 1 or 3 skill rolls
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What about if it would be 1 or 3 skill rolls
When you are making a masterwork item I would allow you to take 10 on both rolls, as you are essentially doing a single action.
If the rolls are sequential it should be possible to take 10.If they are different things, like opening a safe while you say hidden, it shouldn't be possible.
Some class and archetype has special abilities that allow them to take 10 even if distracted, giving that ability to all characters cheapen the special ability.
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As they've said, it is mostly the scroll for which you can't Take 10, as a failure could have consequences that would prevent simply trying again right away.
Take 10 for crafting, using the relevant roll, usually a skill, is allowed. I'd even say it is expected. To be able to Take 10, you must be in a place quiet enough, any place suitable for one to prepare one's daily spells in is suitable for one to Take 10 with regards to quietness.
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It is possible to Take 10 even in some stressful situation, as long as the stress is directly related to the action on which you are taking 10.
As an example, climbing a mountain is dangerous, but as long as there isn't any other thing distracting you, you can take 10.
Climbing a mountain while hiding for aerial searchers is stressful and doing two different tasks, you can't take 10.
One catch, to make sure people understand. The craft skill involved is part of the spell not separate from it
The possible Craft check is part of the effect of the spell, not of the casting of the spell. Should you fail the Craft check, it doesn't mean the casting of the spell has failed. Likewise, if you fail to activate the scroll - barring a glitch -, the crafting materials won't be consumed.
You are able to Take 10 on such a Craft check, provided something else isn't distracting you.
Fabricate allows you to exchange the expenditure of time usually required to create an object for the expenditure of a fifth level spell slot.
Well, this made me think.
The components of a spell are needed for the scroll. The raw materials are components of the Fabricate spell, not external elements elements acted upon by the effect of the spell, like it is the case for Transmute Metal to Wood, for example.
Hence a scroll of Fabricate must have been written using at least the materials you need. Those materials are not to be provided when the scroll is used but when the scroll is scribed. Your initial scenario is incorrect.
As they've said, it is mostly the scroll for which you can't Take 10, as a failure could have consequences that would prevent simply trying again right away.
You are mixing up the Take-10 rule with the Take-20 rule.
Take-10 is used explicitly when fear of failure is an issue. It means you put forth average effort to get the roll of "10".Take-20 cannot be used if a failure means you cannot try again. With a scroll, you get one try to use it. Therefore, no Take 20.
If, however, you are using UMD to activate the scroll, then you cannot Take-10 by the rules of UMD.
Take 10 for crafting, using the relevant roll, usually a skill, is allowed. I'd even say it is expected. To be able to Take 10, you must be in a place quiet enough, any place suitable for one to prepare one's daily spells in is suitable for one to Take 10 with regards to quietness.
You can easily buff your crafting check with a casting of Crafter's Fortune. You can further buff it with Tears to Wine. As they are different bonus types, they stack.
/cevah
Can one take 10 on a caster level check to use a scroll then?
- I do not think I am mixing take 10 and 20 though it is quite possible I didn't communicate without ambiguity. Take 20 is about nothing preventing you from trying again and again, exploring every possibility until you find one that works. Take 10 is about raising the floor at the expense of a lower ceiling, minimising losses, betting on the horse with the lowest odds, about minimising the swing.... If it isn't possible to mitigate circumstances in this way, a take 10 is not permitted. -
As the question was about take 10, I didn't go into take 20.
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Can one take 10 on a caster level check to use a scroll then?
No. It is not a skill check.
- I do not think I am mixing take 10 and 20 though it is quite possible I didn't communicate without ambiguity. Take 20 is about nothing preventing you from trying again and again, exploring every possibility until you find one that works. Take 10 is about raising the floor at the expense of a lower ceiling, minimising losses, betting on the horse with the lowest odds, about minimising the swing.... If it isn't possible to mitigate circumstances in this way, a take 10 is not permitted. -
Or using the level of effort you feel you need instead of going for more at the risk of failing.
Your definition is restrictive. You would allow someone to take 10 to jump a 10' dicth?
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Well, this made me think.
The components of a spell are needed for the scroll. The raw materials are components of the Fabricate spell, not external elements elements acted upon by the effect of the spell, like it is the case for Transmute Metal to Wood, for example.
Hence a scroll of Fabricate must have been written using at least the materials you need. Those materials are not to be provided when the scroll is used but when the scroll is scribed. Your initial scenario is incorrect.
This is technically correct (the best kind of correct).
Source
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 280
Casting
Casting Time see text
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
Effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Description
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.
The raw materials for your item are the spell's material components, which means it is actually consumed when the scroll is created rather than when the final item is created.
Source
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 552
All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell.
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
Scribing a scroll requires 1 day per 1,000 gp of the base price. Although an individual scroll might contain more than one spell, each spell must be scribed as a separate effort, meaning that no more than 1 spell can be scribed in a day.
Item Creation Feat Required: Scribe Scroll.
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (calligraphy), or Profession (scribe).
So, technically you actually need to get a Scroll of Fabricate that had at least 440gp of material components included in its creation.
@Agénor, the rule states:
In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10).
Followed by:
The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to concentration checks or caster level checks.
You can Take-10 on the scroll's skill checks, but not the CL check.
@Taja the Barbarian:
While scrolls should have the material component as part of their price, that is not always the case. How much component do you have in a scroll of animate dead? The component is scaled to the amount animated, not to the spell. Ditto a scroll of wish. In fact, some scrolls are priced with a value for material components that does not match the expected default. [See Trap The Soul and Wish. Commentary here.] This means that the missing component must be supplied when the scroll is used.
/cevah
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@Taja the Barbarian:
While scrolls should have the material component as part of their price, that is not always the case. How much component do you have in a scroll of animate dead? The component is scaled to the amount animated, not to the spell. Ditto a scroll of wish. In fact, some scrolls are priced with a value for material components that does not match the expected default. [See Trap The Soul and Wish. Commentary here.] This means that the missing component must be supplied when the scroll is used./cevah
Hey, I don't make the rules: I just enforce them with ruthless efficiency... ;)
There is nothing in the rules to indicate you can provide material components when using a scroll. In fact, it is quite clearly stated in the rules I quoted that material components need to be provided when the scroll is crafted. If a specific price is listed for a scroll of a spell with a variable component, that is just the 'default' version, the effect of which you can back into by reversing the crafting costs (the default scroll of wish can't be used to duplicate a spell with a really expensive material component because the crafter didn't craft it that way).
Honestly, spells with variable components like these (Restoration is another example) should state which version they are when put into a magic item, but they never bothered to do this...
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@Taja the Barbarian:
While scrolls should have the material component as part of their price, that is not always the case. How much component do you have in a scroll of animate dead? The component is scaled to the amount animated, not to the spell. Ditto a scroll of wish. In fact, some scrolls are priced with a value for material components that does not match the expected default. [See Trap The Soul and Wish. Commentary here.] This means that the missing component must be supplied when the scroll is used./cevah
You play very loose with the rules.
Trap the soul requires: "gem (singular) worth 1,000 gp per HD of the trapped creature", you want to have it work with "gems (plural) worth 1,000 GP per HD of the trapped creature".
The same thing for Wish, you want to add part of the components after creating the scroll and say that it works because you want it to work, but the rules from scrolls don't say that.
For animate dead when you crate the scroll you set the level at which it works, so you add all the onyx needed to animate the appropriate number of HD of undead. If you want to animate fewer HD of undead when you use it it is your loss, but you don't get refunds and don't get to animate more HD than what is allowed by the scroll CL.
The treasure tables of the Came Mastery Guide has several errors, as not all the items that need it are hyphenated, but you should read the legenda at their end (sadly, I suppose for space constrictions it wasn't added at the bottom of each subtable).
1 Requires gem
2 This scroll affects up to 20 HD, but is still only CL 17th.
3 Additional cost
The only spell with "1 Requires gem", so where the gem can be added after making the scroll, is soul bind, and soul bind says:
"The focus for this spell is a black sapphire of at least 1,000 gp value for every HD possessed by the creature whose soul is to be bound. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the binding is attempted."So it is a focus, not a component, and it isn't consumed in the casting.
You play very loose with the rules.@Taja the Barbarian:
While scrolls should have the material component as part of their price, that is not always the case. How much component do you have in a scroll of animate dead? The component is scaled to the amount animated, not to the spell. Ditto a scroll of wish. In fact, some scrolls are priced with a value for material components that does not match the expected default. [See Trap The Soul and Wish. Commentary here.] This means that the missing component must be supplied when the scroll is used./cevah
Perhaps, but I think it is a reasonable way to play.
My point was that the component supplied did not always match the expected value.
Trap the soul requires: "gem (singular) worth 1,000 gp per HD of the trapped creature", you want to have it work with "gems (plural) worth 1,000 GP per HD of the trapped creature".
The same thing for Wish, you want to add part of the components after creating the scroll and say that it works because you want it to work, but the rules from scrolls don't say that.For animate dead when you [create] the scroll you set the level at which it works, so you add all the onyx needed to animate the appropriate number of HD of undead. If you want to animate fewer HD of undead when you use it it is your loss, but you don't get refunds and don't get to animate more HD than what is allowed by the scroll CL.
Some spells are easier to rationalize adding additional material.
I recall reading about some magit items where it provided magic, but the PC had to supply the component as part of the activation. I thought that was a good idea.
The treasure tables of the Came Mastery Guide has several errors, as not all the items that need it are hyphenated, but you should read the [legends] at their end (sadly, I suppose for space constrictions it wasn't added at the bottom of each subtable).
1 Requires gem
2 This scroll affects up to 20 HD, but is still only CL 17th.
3 Additional costThe only spell with "1 Requires gem", so where the gem can be added after making the scroll, is soul bind, and soul bind says:
"The focus for this spell is a black sapphire of at least 1,000 gp value for every HD possessed by the creature whose soul is to be bound. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the binding is attempted."
So it is a focus, not a component, and it isn't consumed in the casting.
I agree that RAW you are more correct than me. I just happen to think the game is more fun by bending the rules.
/cevah
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Some spells are easier to rationalize adding additional material.
I recall reading about some magit items where it provided magic, but the PC had to supply the component as part of the activation. I thought that was a good idea.
I did that with a staff that could cast Raise Dead, the players had to get the diamond. It was for a game with the slow track progression, so they had several adventures between level 7 and 9.
I agree that RAW you are more correct than me. I just happen to think the game is more fun by bending the rules./cevah
Yes, I often use houserules and I think they generally increase the fun, but we are discussing in the rules forum, it is better to be clear when we are discussing rules and when we are suggesting what is more fun or more balanced.
Your definition is restrictive. You would allow someone to take 10 to jump a 10' dicth?
Yes, clearly! - as long as there isn't outside stress. I feel this is a typical case as of why Take 10 exists. This is raising the floor, doing what you know rather than trying to adapt and tune in to the situation at hand.