what is the most optimal wizard universalist?


Advice


i'm trying really hard to get into the game so i guess i will wave the immortality stuff away and focus on something else

can some expert in optimization help me makes a 1 -> 20 build feel free to focus on any aspect you want

only 3 rules

1- no uncommon and above rarity allowed even for archetypes

2- no faction archetypes or with similar restrictions specially alignment restrictions

3- no archetypes that rely on gods, nature, patrons or similar external forces that could decide to charge me later for it


ArchSage20 wrote:

i'm trying really hard to get into the game so i guess i will wave the immortality stuff away and focus on something else

can some expert in optimization help me makes a 1 -> 20 build feel free to focus on any aspect you want

only 3 rules

1- no uncommon and above rarity allowed even for archetypes

2- no faction archetypes or with similar restrictions specially alignment restrictions

3- no archetypes that rely on gods, nature, patrons or similar external forces that could decide to charge me later for it

Honestly I think "optimal" and "Universalist" don't go together in the same sentence. Universalists have one less casting per day at every level up to 8th, at which they start to pull ahead if, and only if, they take Bond Conservation. Which is, in my opinion, a "white room powerhouse" which will never come close to its theoretical benefit in a real game.

Oh yeah, and as a Universalist you get one extra 1st level wizard feat. Meh.

Again, it's only my opinion but I think anyone interested in optimizing is better off picking a school. Universalist is only a good option if Hand of the Apprentice is critical to your character idea.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
mrspaghetti wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:

i'm trying really hard to get into the game so i guess i will wave the immortality stuff away and focus on something else

can some expert in optimization help me makes a 1 -> 20 build feel free to focus on any aspect you want

only 3 rules

1- no uncommon and above rarity allowed even for archetypes

2- no faction archetypes or with similar restrictions specially alignment restrictions

3- no archetypes that rely on gods, nature, patrons or similar external forces that could decide to charge me later for it

Honestly I think "optimal" and "Universalist" don't go together in the same sentence. Universalists have one less casting per day at every level up to 8th, at which they start to pull ahead if, and only if, they take Bond Conservation. Which is, in my opinion, a "white room powerhouse" which will never come close to its theoretical benefit in a real game.

Oh yeah, and as a Universalist you get one extra 1st level wizard feat. Meh.

Again, it's only my opinion but I think anyone interested in optimizing is better off picking a school. Universalist is only a good option if Hand of the Apprentice is critical to your character idea.

Universalist is pretty great imo if you want to play a "semi-spontaneous" caster. Being able to recast a spell of every level rather than preparing another one is a huge boon in my opinion.


mrspaghetti wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:

i'm trying really hard to get into the game so i guess i will wave the immortality stuff away and focus on something else

can some expert in optimization help me makes a 1 -> 20 build feel free to focus on any aspect you want

only 3 rules

1- no uncommon and above rarity allowed even for archetypes

2- no faction archetypes or with similar restrictions specially alignment restrictions

3- no archetypes that rely on gods, nature, patrons or similar external forces that could decide to charge me later for it

Honestly I think "optimal" and "Universalist" don't go together in the same sentence. Universalists have one less casting per day at every level up to 8th, at which they start to pull ahead if, and only if, they take Bond Conservation. Which is, in my opinion, a "white room powerhouse" which will never come close to its theoretical benefit in a real game.

Oh yeah, and as a Universalist you get one extra 1st level wizard feat. Meh.

Again, it's only my opinion but I think anyone interested in optimizing is better off picking a school. Universalist is only a good option if Hand of the Apprentice is critical to your character idea.

i don't mind a specialist (can't change the title) i just don't see the benefit of being one


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Wizards are versatile, but you kinda have to know what you want to be your primary thing: AoE damage spells? Battlefield control? Buffing the rest of the party? Debuffing?

For any kind of damage build, the amount of extra spells you get, plus a damaging 1 action focus spell, plus some solid higher level feat support makes the evoker one of the stronger wizard builds now.

Illusion magic is really great in PF2 and with silent spell, the secret caster is definitely a wizard now, and you can start controlling the battlefield from level one

I am really partial to the diviner wizard because their focus power is good in combat or out, but if you know you can't have any uncommon options then there will be some levels where you won't have great spells.

Abjurers make pretty good buffing wizards and can be pretty tough with the right build and spell selection.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Don't be tricked into any kind of weapon or fancy armor build though. Save your gold for items that give you more spells. The wizard shines by being able to cast spells from spell slots as frequently as possible.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would build a wizard to cast a lot of spells.

1. I'd go elf or half-elf.

2. I'd take a ranged weapon early on, a bow is best. I would use it while casting cantrips to make up for the slow progress at low levels. You can do this with an ancestry feat.

3. I would get crafting to make sure I can make a lot of lower level scrolls and wands as I level.

4. Focus on picking the highest value spells like AoE damage, fear and status penalty spells, get invisibility, and the like.

5. Tough out the low levels until you can start unleashing powerful AoE.

6. Cast opportunistically.

Once you get to the higher levels and you play more like Gandalf early on, you should be good as you start to reach levels where you have tons of spells.

Or make a storm druid with wild shape or animal companion. Pretend your the Alanon from Shannara version of a wizard, be a total badass.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
mrspaghetti wrote:

Which is, in my opinion, a "white room powerhouse" which will never come close to its theoretical benefit in a real game.

My Wizard hit 19th last month, and it's not as much of a white room as people think!

What I have noticed is that is a distinct curve, where it becomes increasingly beneficial as enemy HP starts to outscale damage. I say, from around level 15 or so, fights tend to go longer and your ability to cascade really takes off.

Not to say I wasn't using it ever fight from 8th onwards, and it is true that if you are trying to cascade all the way down from 10th to 1st in successive rounds, then chances are you aren't going to get away with it.

Spell choice really matters though. You want as many Type A spells as possible so that you never hit a "cascade breaker" when trying to chain.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Well, if you want to play a wizard that's all about using magic that they've studied themselves, then I'd recommend taking the Scroll Trickster archetype. Think about it; this archetype allows you to create scrolls with spells on the Divine, Occult, and Primal spell lists, and makes it more likely that you can successfully cast them. And the reason you can use magic that is normally only reserved for those who pledge themselves to a higher power? It's because you're a big brain nerd who figured it out thanks to that big brain of yours.

I dunno, feels like it might be what you're going for.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
mrspaghetti wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:

i'm trying really hard to get into the game so i guess i will wave the immortality stuff away and focus on something else

can some expert in optimization help me makes a 1 -> 20 build feel free to focus on any aspect you want

only 3 rules

1- no uncommon and above rarity allowed even for archetypes

2- no faction archetypes or with similar restrictions specially alignment restrictions

3- no archetypes that rely on gods, nature, patrons or similar external forces that could decide to charge me later for it

Honestly I think "optimal" and "Universalist" don't go together in the same sentence. Universalists have one less casting per day at every level up to 8th, at which they start to pull ahead if, and only if, they take Bond Conservation. Which is, in my opinion, a "white room powerhouse" which will never come close to its theoretical benefit in a real game.

Oh yeah, and as a Universalist you get one extra 1st level wizard feat. Meh.

Again, it's only my opinion but I think anyone interested in optimizing is better off picking a school. Universalist is only a good option if Hand of the Apprentice is critical to your character idea.

*checks*

are you sure about that that? Drain Bonded Item works once per spell level for a Universalist, a Universalist who restores a fireball, and an Evocation Wizard who has an extra spell slot to prepare that fireball in, are on even footing so long as you don't intend to use the spell slot to prepare a unique spell (though that part is fixed if you have spell substitution.)


The-Magic-Sword wrote:
mrspaghetti wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:

i'm trying really hard to get into the game so i guess i will wave the immortality stuff away and focus on something else

can some expert in optimization help me makes a 1 -> 20 build feel free to focus on any aspect you want

only 3 rules

1- no uncommon and above rarity allowed even for archetypes

2- no faction archetypes or with similar restrictions specially alignment restrictions

3- no archetypes that rely on gods, nature, patrons or similar external forces that could decide to charge me later for it

Honestly I think "optimal" and "Universalist" don't go together in the same sentence. Universalists have one less casting per day at every level up to 8th, at which they start to pull ahead if, and only if, they take Bond Conservation. Which is, in my opinion, a "white room powerhouse" which will never come close to its theoretical benefit in a real game.

Oh yeah, and as a Universalist you get one extra 1st level wizard feat. Meh.

Again, it's only my opinion but I think anyone interested in optimizing is better off picking a school. Universalist is only a good option if Hand of the Apprentice is critical to your character idea.

*checks*

are you sure about that that? Drain Bonded Item works once per spell level for a Universalist, a Universalist who restores a fireball, and an Evocation Wizard who has an extra spell slot to prepare that fireball in, are on even footing so long as you don't intend to use the spell slot to prepare a unique spell (though that part is fixed if you have spell substitution.)

Specialists still get one use of Drain Bonded Item, putting them one spell slot ahead of universalists.


Salamileg wrote:
The-Magic-Sword wrote:
mrspaghetti wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:

i'm trying really hard to get into the game so i guess i will wave the immortality stuff away and focus on something else

can some expert in optimization help me makes a 1 -> 20 build feel free to focus on any aspect you want

only 3 rules

1- no uncommon and above rarity allowed even for archetypes

2- no faction archetypes or with similar restrictions specially alignment restrictions

3- no archetypes that rely on gods, nature, patrons or similar external forces that could decide to charge me later for it

Honestly I think "optimal" and "Universalist" don't go together in the same sentence. Universalists have one less casting per day at every level up to 8th, at which they start to pull ahead if, and only if, they take Bond Conservation. Which is, in my opinion, a "white room powerhouse" which will never come close to its theoretical benefit in a real game.

Oh yeah, and as a Universalist you get one extra 1st level wizard feat. Meh.

Again, it's only my opinion but I think anyone interested in optimizing is better off picking a school. Universalist is only a good option if Hand of the Apprentice is critical to your character idea.

*checks*

are you sure about that that? Drain Bonded Item works once per spell level for a Universalist, a Universalist who restores a fireball, and an Evocation Wizard who has an extra spell slot to prepare that fireball in, are on even footing so long as you don't intend to use the spell slot to prepare a unique spell (though that part is fixed if you have spell substitution.)

Specialists still get one use of Drain Bonded Item, putting them one spell slot ahead of universalists.

that is something i'm confused my interpretation was that the specialist gets 1 and the universalist gets 2 am i wrong?


ArchSage20 wrote:
Salamileg wrote:
The-Magic-Sword wrote:
mrspaghetti wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:

i'm trying really hard to get into the game so i guess i will wave the immortality stuff away and focus on something else

can some expert in optimization help me makes a 1 -> 20 build feel free to focus on any aspect you want

only 3 rules

1- no uncommon and above rarity allowed even for archetypes

2- no faction archetypes or with similar restrictions specially alignment restrictions

3- no archetypes that rely on gods, nature, patrons or similar external forces that could decide to charge me later for it

Honestly I think "optimal" and "Universalist" don't go together in the same sentence. Universalists have one less casting per day at every level up to 8th, at which they start to pull ahead if, and only if, they take Bond Conservation. Which is, in my opinion, a "white room powerhouse" which will never come close to its theoretical benefit in a real game.

Oh yeah, and as a Universalist you get one extra 1st level wizard feat. Meh.

Again, it's only my opinion but I think anyone interested in optimizing is better off picking a school. Universalist is only a good option if Hand of the Apprentice is critical to your character idea.

*checks*

are you sure about that that? Drain Bonded Item works once per spell level for a Universalist, a Universalist who restores a fireball, and an Evocation Wizard who has an extra spell slot to prepare that fireball in, are on even footing so long as you don't intend to use the spell slot to prepare a unique spell (though that part is fixed if you have spell substitution.)

Specialists still get one use of Drain Bonded Item, putting them one spell slot ahead of universalists.
that is something i'm confused my interpretation was that the specialist gets 1 and the universalist gets 2 am i wrong?

Specialists get 1 use of drain bonded item, period. Universalists get 1 use per level of spell slots they can cast from.


Ventnor wrote:
Specialists get 1 use of drain bonded item, period. Universalists get 1 use per level of spell...

oh ok in that case i can definitively see why one would pick a specialist

i would probably go with divination since wish is from that school

necromancy would be thematically my favorite but i don`t think there is 10th level necromancy spell

so either divination specialist or evocation specialist

1 from level + 1 from school + 1 from blending + 1 from bond + 1 from capstone = 5

5 casts of cataclysm can probably kill a balor

still i tend to like the wish better

5 casts of wish every day sounds very very useful

Dark Archive

Just to lay it all out:

A base Wizard would normally have say 3 slots per spell level

All Wizards get 1 use of Drain Bonded Item

A specialist Wizard gains an extra spell slot per level, so we'll call it 4 average + 1 use of drain bonded item.

A Universalist Wizard retains the base 3 slots + 1 use of drain bonded item per level. This gives them an effective 4th slot.

This means that because of that 1 use of drain bonded item the would look like:

Specialist Wizard Spells per Day = (N)
Universalist Wizard Spells per Day = (N-1)

This is, of course, because we account for additional feats / abilities which adjust the those numbers.


Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Just to lay it all out:

A base Wizard would normally have say 3 slots per spell level

All Wizards get 1 use of Drain Bonded Item

A specialist Wizard gains an extra spell slot per level, so we'll call it 4 average + 1 use of drain bonded item.

A Universalist Wizard retains the base 3 slots + 1 use of drain bonded item per level. This gives them an effective 4th slot.

This means that because of that 1 use of drain bonded item the would look like:

Specialist Wizard Spells per Day = (N)
Universalist Wizard Spells per Day = (N-1)

This is, of course, because we account for additional feats / abilities which adjust the those numbers.

i was talking about 10th level slots the rest doesn't really matter they could be 1 for all i care


I've always thought the alchemist dedication pairs thematically with the wizard. It adds a bit of versatility, while potentially helping to save spell slots and gp.


Decimus Drake wrote:
I've always thought the alchemist dedication pairs thematically with the wizard. It adds a bit of versatility, while potentially helping to save spell slots and gp.

they are the 2 intelligence classes (ignoring investigator) sp thematically yeah since reckless scientist npc seem to be related to alchemy and wizards are often compared to scientists


Witch is also Int based and she can offer quite a bit of support as a multiclass for a Wizard, especially if you pick divine/occult spellist.


shroudb wrote:
Witch is also Int based and she can offer quite a bit of support as a multiclass for a Wizard, especially if you pick divine/occult spellist.

I dunno, you could go witch for INT-based spells off of other traditions, but you might also be better off going Scroll Trickster to access spells from all 4 traditions.

Lantern Lodge

I haven't played him yet, but my guy is a:

Wizard / Witch (Arcane) multiclass (At level 2) / Alchemist Multiclass (at level 9)

Note that normally a Witch multiclass must improve the skill governing their tradition in order to take Expert and Master Witch spellcasting... you're probably already improving your Arcana because you're a Wizard, so no need to devote one of your three skill progressions to another skill.

Also note, that you use Arcane spellcasting when casting arcane spells, REGARDLESS of where you obtain those spells. So, as a witch who casts arcane spells, you use your FULL arcane spellcasting (from wizard) to cast your witch arcane spells (plus you get full stat bonus since wizard and witch both use INT).

Alchemist multiclass doesn't come on-line until Level 9, but gets to Mastery Alchemy by Level 14 (just 5 levels!). Alchemy mutliclass requires crafting skill, but it's probably one of your three full progressions anyways, so no real pain there.

There is a cost... all but 2 of the character's class feats are soaked up by the Multiclasses. You only have Level 16 an 20 available.

I also have an alternate build that replaces Alchemist multiclass with Sorceror multiclass. You get full wizard spellcasting for your Sorceror spells, BUT your CHA will likely by much lower than INT, so the sorceror spells will lag. You do get alot of spell slots though, but need to eat up your Level 20 class feat.


Captain Zoom wrote:

I haven't played him yet, but my guy is a:

Wizard / Witch (Arcane) multiclass (At level 2) / Alchemist Multiclass (at level 9)

do you think it can be done by switching the witch with a sorcerer? as in wizard/ sorcerer/ alchemist?

intelligence and charm don't affect as much on utility spells like create food or create water fly etc... and those are the kind i tend t pick so no problem there


1 person marked this as a favorite.
ArchSage20 wrote:
Captain Zoom wrote:

I haven't played him yet, but my guy is a:

Wizard / Witch (Arcane) multiclass (At level 2) / Alchemist Multiclass (at level 9)

do you think it can be done by switching the witch with a sorcerer? as in wizard/ sorcerer/ alchemist?

intelligence and charm don't affect as much on utility spells like create food or create water fly etc... and those are the kind i tend t pick so no problem there

you would need at least 14 Cha at character creation to pick up Sorc Dedication at level 2, but sure.

Your DCs will be lower, and instead of like 2 prepared slots (up to level 6 and 1 7th and 1 8th) youd have the same amount of spontaneous slots.

You'd also be lacking a familiar unless you pick it up from wizard.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Advice / what is the most optimal wizard universalist? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.