|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I just saw in one of the griping about errata threads a quote from Eric Mona that the Absalom book that got delayed will have a temple for every core deity. (And visiting Absalom's temple of Norgorber is a part of the new Agents of Edgewatch adventure), so I'm now really curious to see how Absalom handles it.
Yeah, this is a thing. It's also, as Sibelius notes, a bit of an exception to the rule. Absalom and Rahadoum are on opposite ends of the extremes when it comes to religion, with both legally treating all religions the same (in one, all are illegal, in the other all are legal), with most countries being more of a mixed bag in that regard.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Skimming through a few campaign setting books, I've found some specific examples of varying God legality with the worship of Rovagug being banned in Katapesh, but the worship of Lamashtu appearing to be legal (though socially frowned upon outside of gnoll communities). While, per the original Guide to Korvosa , that city bans only the worship of Rovagug, Lamashtu, and Gorum (though Urgathoa is pretty close to banned as well in practice...and maybe officially too, after CotCT) of the core 20.
Per Inner Sea Gods, the faiths of Urgathoa and Rovagug are banned in most places, while those of Norgorber and Calistria are also noted as illegal in some. Others are certainly illegal various places, as stated elsewhere but Urgathoa and Rovagug seem clearly the most often banned.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for looking that up.
You're quite welcome, I'm always happy to be of assistance. :)
I honestly just skimmed some of the more detailed nation or city books doing word searches. Looking a little further into it, Lost Omens: Gods and Magic mentions little about the legality of specific deities aside from reaffirming that Urgathoa's worship is illegal almost everywhere in the Inner Sea region except for Geb.
So yeah, Evil deities in general being illegal seems fairly common but not universal. Rovagug and Urgathoa are pretty close to universally banned, though.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
One has to assume that the authorities in Absalom keep an eye on *everybody* who spends time in the temple of Rovagug.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I wasn't intending to start an alignment debate, only that the anti-faith laws seem oppressive, and couldn't help but harm people in the nation whether or not it has good intentions.
Banning Pathfinder worship is no more evil than banning multi-level marketing schemes or drugs with bad long term side effects. You may like participating in them or taking them, but they don't deliver what they promise.
Rahadoum is just preventing you from trading your allegiance to an alien, powerful creature who offers only a false promise of immortality and protection in the afterlife. They can't deliver and don't tell the truth about how the vast majority of souls/outsiders are destroyed in any cosmically realistic timeframe. Indeed, the gods can't even protect themselves from death, leaving the souls who depended on them in the lurch.
Rahadoum is good, it's the others who allow and encourage the fraud of religion who are evil!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But do the deities of Golarion promise immortality, or just an afterlife of unspecified duration? Striving for a better afterlife would still be worthwhile even if it only lasts for some finite period of time after your mortal life. And if the general alignment of Rahadoum is any indication, the fate of followers of the Rahadoumi faith is comparable to that of followers of Abadar.
An example of this limited duration afterlife in real world mythology would be Valhalla in Norse mythology. Those who end up in Valhalla are not there eternally -- just until Ragnarok, when they along with the gods are killed in glorious battle and do not come back to life thereafter.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rahadoum is just preventing you from trading your allegiance to an alien, powerful creature who offers only a false promise of immortality and protection in the afterlife. They can't deliver and don't tell the truth about how the vast majority of souls/outsiders are destroyed in any cosmically realistic timeframe. Indeed, the gods can't even protect themselves from death, leaving the souls who depended on them in the lurch.
There's literally no evidence the Gods of Golarion promise this, and a lot that they don't. The way that the planes and afterlife work is known in-setting and we have no evidence that most deities lie about it.
This is a bit of a thorny question I think in part because it's relatively easy to see in real life examples, suppressing a people's religion(s) entails actively suppressing their culture, such as in communist Russia or China. In contrast, because of our relationship with the game setting, it's not as easy to see a connection between banning worship of deities and suppressing the myriad of cultures and traditions that likely exist across the world for each of those deities. In the former case, I think it's easy to see why suppressing religion would be an evil act, while the latter it seems like it should otherwise be a non-issue, philosophically (leaving aside the question of objectively evil, near universally banned religions or cults).
On the other hand, there's also possibly the question of individual alignment vs. cultural alignment. Even if we assume that suppressing religion itself is an evil act, I don't know that we can say this is the same thing as the nation itself is evil. It seems to me in general the alignment of a settlement or nation is more based on how restrictive or permissive its laws are, and whether its policies are on the whole cruel or kind towards its people. Likewise, we can see from history how the ban on religion comes on the wake of a brutal war.
---
As for the question of gods being liars--I was going to ask what evidence we had for the gods espousing this belief, but DMW seems to have the right of it. Mortal churches, I have no trouble believing they mix the message a bit, just as they are known to conflate positive energy with the power of the gods and negative energy with evil. Likewise, I think the Antipode and the post-petitioner side of the afterlife is less common knowledge in the setting, but regardless I don't think we have any evidence that any of the major deities has claimed to offer eternal afterlife. Even in the real-world, this claim is neither universal nor particularly common among religions, so it would be weird to assume it as a default in Golarion.
|
The way that the planes and afterlife work is known in-setting and we have no evidence that most deities lie about it.
I suspect there's a vast gulf between what we know of the setting's metaphysics and what most mortal wizards and clerics know, and a vaster gulf between what they know and what the masses know.
We do know that some of the best sources of metaphysical knowledge, Tabris's collected works, are highly restricted.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wasn't intending to start an alignment debate, only that the anti-faith laws seem oppressive, and couldn't help but harm people in the nation whether or not it has good intentions.Banning Pathfinder worship is no more evil than banning multi-level marketing schemes or drugs with bad long term side effects. You may like participating in them or taking them, but they don't deliver what they promise.
Rahadoum is just preventing you from trading your allegiance to an alien, powerful creature who offers only a false promise of immortality and protection in the afterlife. They can't deliver and don't tell the truth about how the vast majority of souls/outsiders are destroyed in any cosmically realistic timeframe. Indeed, the gods can't even protect themselves from death, leaving the souls who depended on them in the lurch.
Rahadoum is good, it's the others who allow and encourage the fraud of religion who are evil!
Definitely less evil than banning MLMs. At least with evil gods you know you're joining a cult.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I suspect there's a vast gulf between what we know of the setting's metaphysics and what most mortal wizards and clerics know, and a vaster gulf between what they know and what the masses know.
I'm not sure that first part (the gap between us the reader and mortal scholars on the subject) is very true, there's probably some gap, but not necessarily an immense one.
The gap between average people and scholars is definitely more of a thing, but the basics of how petitioners work (including dissolving into their plane eventually) is definitionally a DC 15 Religion check.
Which means that, in a random collection of uneducated people with average intellect, 30% will know this fact. That's not really very obscure. Knowing this fact is as obscure as knowing the normal habits of wolves or horses, not some deep mystery being kept from people.
Now, other aspects of the metaphysics are much less well known, but the basic way petitioners work is fairly common knowledge.
We do know that some of the best sources of metaphysical knowledge, Tabris's collected works, are highly restricted.
True, but that's for fairly specific reasons.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I prefer having the actual mortal representatives of deities on Golarion mostly talk about how their deity's portfolio stands to improve your mortal life, or reveals some sort of fundamental truth about life on the material plane.
Like Erastilites are more about "forming tight knit communities allows people to thrive" and Desnans are more about "by traveling and keeping an open mind you can find wonders" and Sheylnites are more about "finding beauty where it can be found, and creating beauty where none exists" than any of them are about "earn your place in Heaven/Elysium/Nirvana".
Imagine there is splinter cult of the god of rape that worships him as a consensual BDSM god, insists that the mentions of rape are mistranslations and other followers are evil and/or misguided.
Why would it be moral to ban that cult?
Humbly,
Yawar
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Really awful hypothetical
Why would it be moral to ban that cult?
Humbly,
Yawar
Don't even go there.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Now you have a cult of goddess of assassins that worships her as a goddess of artist, outcasts and midnight and insist she has been redeemed.
How is that different from an in-game perspective?
Humbly,
Yawar
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well for one thing, she literally is redeemed and is no longer how she was.
I'm not really sure it is different, from an in-game perspective. To many people across the world, worshipping Nocticula in any capacity is likely undifferentiated from worshipping any other demon lord. People who have heard of the Cult of the Redeemer Queen may know that this cult is fundamentally concerned with outcasts and art rather than assassination, or they may not believe that.
Given that she has left her demonic nature behind, to those aware of the change there is a rather significant difference between Nocticula and the ban on demon worship, though. She's not a demon.
Granted, while she was a demon her worship would likely have been banned in many places. I'm sure there are many heretical splinter cults out there which a given deity must choose whether to or not do endorse. Doesn't make worshipping a demon lord not worshipping a demon lord, from a social perspective, unless you happen to be right.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well for one thing, she literally is redeemed and is no longer how she was.
Yes, but NPCs haven't read the setting books.
In the first example, they don't know they are wrong and they are sincere in their believes. There are even example of clerics that confuse their own theology and still get spells.Humbly,
Yawar
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Haagenti might be a clearer example of an unredeemed demon lord whose cult is likely to be viewed as harmless. Certainly only the most paranoid government would arrest or prosecute somebody for performing his obedience (basically conducting alchemical experiments).
|
|
Given that she has left her demonic nature behind, to those aware of the change there is a rather significant difference between Nocticula and the ban on demon worship, though. She's not a demon.
Neither is Lamashtu, but her cult is probably still treated like a demon lord's would be. To say nothing of Rovagug (setting aside that he was never a demon - the distinction between all-devouring CE demons and all-devouring CE qlippoths is almost certainly lost on most people and probably doesn't matter to most governments). If you're positing that Nocticula's cult will be treated differently than either of theirs, then you're stating that the venerated being's alignment, or the actions of their cult, matters more in the eyes of most places' laws than the venerated being's kind.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I understood that Lamashtu is still, in fact, a demon goddess, same as Asmodeus being the archdevil god, while the lore for Nocticula claims she left demon hood behind. If there is no distinction there, it still remains that Nocticula is no longer an evil goddess.
That aside, I made no claim that demons were the exclusive class of banned deities. At minimum, there are other evil demigod species and a variety of other gods who are evil, and would appropriately be banned from veneration. The current topic seems to have honed in rather specifically on the question of demon worship.
Nocticula's (even non-evil) adherents aren't precisely the sorts of people who regularly find themselves on the right side of the law anyway.
You don't get a bunch of bohemian CN weirdo outcasts together and get them to follow other people's rules except by accident.
Now you have a cult of goddess of assassins that worships her as a goddess of artist, outcasts and midnight and insist she has been redeemed.
How is that different from an in-game perspective?
Humbly,
YawarThat's also assuming that the people into Noticula worship for the assassination and lust aspects changed over with her and are trying to fit into society. They probably just drifted over to Shaxx or some other demon lord.
I'm curious as to how many people changed worship with the goddess. (That might be a fun character to play, really. Used to be a high level cleric of CE Noticula, then went into the Midnight aspect a newbie.)
I also wonder if any succubi followed Noticula, seeing as that was also part of her portfolio, if I recall. (Strike that, they were just a popular worshipper).
That's probably a topic for a different thread though.
Good point, I imagine that many, now heretical cults, continue to worship her in her previous aspect, due to ignorance, stubbornness, denial, etc. After all, many people continue worshiping Aroden after his death.
Side question, does worship of a god affect a god in Golarion? If enough faithful believe something about their god, does it become true?
Humbly,
Yawar
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Good point, I imagine that many, now heretical cults, continue to worship her in her previous aspect, due to ignorance, stubbornness, denial, etc. After all, many people continue worshiping Aroden after his death.
I don't know about 'many'. She no longer accepts CE worshipers so they don't get power from her any more, so I'd expect many of them to have moved on to greener pastures (as many followers of Aroden moved on to Iomedae). There are certainly still some die hards, but I'd expect it to be a small number.
Side question, does worship of a god affect a god in Golarion? If enough faithful believe something about their god, does it become true?
It does not. Gods are discreet entities in Golarion and Paizo's setting in general, with worship effecting them very little, if at all. It has no effect at all on how powerful they are, for example.
Though, since they can't interfere with mortals directly, the amount they're worshiped does play a part in how much they can effect the world of mortals, if only inasmuch as it determines how many mortals are out there working towards their goals.
Side question, does worship of a god affect a god in Golarion? If enough faithful believe something about their god, does it become true?
It is my understanding that the line is not entirely cut-and-dry, but generally no, mortal worshippers do not exert belief-based influence over their deity in this way. That said, there has been a history of a few deities who have shifted in response to mortal worship. Lissala is an Azlanti goddess of the virtues of rule, who embraced evil when her followers perverted those virtues to sin magic.
In general, however, I believe it has to be a choice of the deity whether something is included, or whether to shift their focus in response to an evolution in religious practices on the ground. Nocticula ceased granting her former assassin worshippers powers, so they had to change to embrace the new orthodoxy or jump ship to a different demon lord according to their values
|
|
Side question, does worship of a god affect a god in Golarion? If enough faithful believe something about their god, does it become true?It is my understanding that the line is not entirely cut-and-dry, but generally no, mortal worshippers do not exert belief-based influence over their deity in this way. That said, there has been a history of a few deities who have shifted in response to mortal worship. Lissala is an Azlanti goddess of the virtues of rule, who embraced evil when her followers perverted those virtues to sin magic.
Gods can shift with their worshipers, but it appears to be entirely non-magical and voluntary. Lissala wasn't forced to shift by some God/worshiper bond, she chose to shift in the same way any mortal ruler might choose to change alignment to better fit in with their subjects.
They can also, as Nocticula demonstrates, shift in direct opposition to the will of most of their worshipers. Again, just as a mortal ruler might in regards to their subjects.
I don't know about 'many'. She no longer accepts CE worshipers so they don't get power from her any more, so I'd expect many of them to have moved on to greener pastures (as many followers of Aroden moved on to Iomedae). There are certainly still some die hards, but I'd expect it to be a small number.
While the clergy would certainly loss spell access, other faithful who don't communicate directly with their goddess, low level hitmen for example, that followed partly because of superstition and faith than tangible benefits wouldn't notice a difference immediately.
A side effect of not having an organized religion would be that changes in orthodoxy wouldn't be spread through the ranks rapidly or easily.Humbly,
Yawar
|
Ya know, decided to delete my post and rewrite it since I figured out posting while sleep deprived isn't really helping my coherence ;P
Anyway, I do agree that quote in its context doesn't work as argument for banning evil religions, though I'm still insulted that you started to suggest things about my personal belief when I haven't at any point made implications on Yawar's personal beliefs. I don't really feel like my purposely interpreting Popper's message to be more extreme warranted that, though I'm too sleep deprived to understand your post fully whether you actually did that or not.(since I literally can't remember what "manifest demonstration" means since those two words mean different things)
Soo basically better to delete post since I'm too tired to tell if you actually insulted me or not :p Though yeah, I admit that I did that misinterpretation on purpose just to debate for sake of debating. I've been sleep deprived for whole day and for some reason that seemed amusing thought at the time before I felt insulted.
...Is this what it feels like to be drunk? I don't get how people like acting in erratic and incredibly mood swingy way, this feels embarassing