Assumption 1: In PF2, an individual PC has level-based limits on how Optimized they can become at any one thing. They can have the expected (max) AC for their level, max out their skills, but they can't over-optimize and completely ignore risk or defeat all challenges (even of a specific type) all on their lonesome.
Assumption 2: With PF2's tight math, there's a sharp change in perceived difficulty of the published adventures when the PCs are an optimized team versus if they are created as a bunch of independent individuals who lack complementary abilities (or maybe this should be, teamwork-related behaviors).
So, if the above are true, I started wondering, what are the essential capabilities that are required (at least for one PC) in an Optimized Group of PCs? Are there any that are basically always needed? And are there others that could be an either-or situation?
IMPORTANT: I am not saying this leads to a right vs wrong way to play the game. More, just trying to figure out some of the levers a group can look at when considering teamwork options. And which are feeling more vs less important to a wider group of folks who've played the game, vs. just my group's perspective.
Always Required #1: The ability to Treat Wounds via maxed out Medicine + earliest possible access to the Medicine skill feats (Continual Recovery, Ward Medic, probably Battle Medicine).
Always Required #2: Detect Magic and Read Aura cantrips, and maxed out skill in one of the skills used to identify magic items; Quick Identification. (Note: If you follow the rules for ID'ing magic items, you need these. My group just announces what items are found, so long as the group has invested in these abilities. If your group just announces what magic items are found without that requirement, then these aren't a mandatory investment.)
Always Required #3: Crafting skill plus Magical Crafting, possibly additional crafting skill feats for crafting items for the group.
Always Required #4: the "Front Line" PC(s) with at least the Martial melee attack proficiency (i.e. cap out at Master) and decent defenses, to absorb a higher share of foes' melee attacks.
So, do you think all of those belong on the list? Does anything else make the list? Monster-identification capabilities? Some way of handing out status bonuses to attacks? Any specific Diplomacy or Society type capabilities?
#1 varies by inherent healing already in the party. It's handy having combat medics wandering around, but if there is at least one good magical healer, and someone who can magically off-heal in a pinch, it becomes less neccessary
#3 relies on more time than gold. If they have gold, but not time, the best they will achieve with crafting is spending the same gold and having to spend time along with it. If they have ridiculous amounts of time, but not a great deal of gold, it can grant easier access to magic items
A 'face' is pretty much required in any campaign with social interactions. Diplomacy, deception, society. It's entirely possible for good social abilities to allow you to completely change how encounters are played on a regular basis.
Related but separate to 'face' is languages. The ability to communicate with a wide range of beings can't be undersold, even if the person doing the speaking isn't the Face
Monster ID abilities come online from around level 5 or 6, where you can start encountering creatures with weaknesses and resistances that should be targeted for efficiency
Nature with some relevant skills (Travel, foraging, tracking related) become more important in any campaign where overland travel is a regular thing, particularly if that overland travel is through hostile environments (cold, desert, shattered/broken/bad lands)
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About half of both #1 and #2 and all of #3 are okay, but not really required. In terms of Medicine, as Asethe notes it depends on your other healing resources, as well as how much time you're willing to take. There are now, I think, three Classes with Focus Spells for healing (Bard, Champion, and Witch), any of those can replace Medicine in a pinch.
Quick Identification is nice but you can always also just take more time. Very rarely is taking more time gonna actually be an issue. You do need Detect Magic and Read Aura, but Quick Identification is a luxury, not a necessity.
And #3 is a means, not an end. What you need is a way to get specific magic items, particularly at high levels. Magical Crafting is one way to do that, but so is the campaign being set in Absalom, sufficient level and Teleport, and potentially other options as well.
Really, I think specifying means over ends is a fundamental problem with your list, the more I think on it.
My own list, I will post separately, shortly.
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Actual requirements for an optimal party, a list in no particular order:
#1. Out of combat unlimited healing. Maxed out Medicine or a Focus Spell to allow complete HP recovery if you have some time.
#2. Access to specific magic items. As noted in my previous post, there are several routes to this goal, though Magical Crafting and maxed Crafting Skill is probably easiest.
#3. A frontliner with martial AC, damage, and to-hit chance (technically, how they achieve these doesn't matter, though most casters will have trouble...I think there's a valid Bard build). For a really optimal party, you probably want two of these, actually.
#4. A full spellcaster. Some things really do just require one, including Detect Magic and Read Aura, which the party's collected spellcasters should have. You also want the ability to inflict area damage, buffs and debuffs, and use utility spells. Those are the things the party needs, though they can be split among multiple casters (an Alchemist can also handle a lot of the utility stuff).
#5. In-combat damage mitigation. This can take the form of Battle Medicine, healing spells, a Champion protecting allies, everyone having Shield Block...lots of options really. But you need a way to survive.
#6. Skill Coverage. As in, people with at least fairly decent stats (at least 18 by 20th level), maxed out Proficiency, and Skill Items for the following Skills. This is sort of more than one really, but necessary. Ideally, all five monster knowledge skills (Arcana, Nature, Occultism, Religion, and Society) should certainly be covered, as should at least one social Skill but preferably more (ideally, you want Deception, Diplomacy, and Intimidation), Stealth (so someone can scout), Athletics (for breaking down doors and combat maneuvers), and possibly other skills depending on campaign (Survival is necessary for many games, but not one that's entirely city-bound). This one is often tricky, but to be optimal, it's needed. Also ideally, people other than the specialist should have all these Skills at Trained so as to be a backup, and provide some insurance against poor rolls (if your specialist has an 80% chance and someone else has a 50%, your total odds of success rise to 90%, after all).
#7. Good language coverage. Speaking to people is important and useful. The Tongues spell can sub in for this in a pinch, but in a lot of situations speaking to people is useful and having some options in that regard is good.
#8. Synergies. Which of these you'll have will vary by party, but the more the different abilities of different characters synergize with each other the better. A Wit Swashbuckler + Bard is a better combo than the sum of their parts, as is a Ruffian Rogue with Vicious Debilitations and coordination on weapon damage types within the party. Those are just two examples, but PF2 is a team game and there are a lot of potentially synergistic options for a party that should be kept in mind.
#9. Ranged combat options. You need serious, dedicated, ranged combatants. This can easily overlap with spellcasters, and even with Dex-based frontliners, but sometimes you just need to a character who does solid ranged damage.
#10. Adaptability. No character can afford to only use one type of damage, only target one Save as a spellcaster, or similar things. You need options for what to do when your favorite trick just flatly won't work. This one is a bit more individual, but it remains an important point.
#11. Sort of a meta concern, but the party needs to actually be cohesive. Playing a Cleric of Asmodeus in the same party as a Champion of Cayden Cailean is a terrible idea and one of you should stop that. PF2 is more of a team game than PF1 ever was, and that's not just relevant to party builds (as discussed in Point #8 above), but in actual in-combat tactics, and if the party can't use those effectively due to either character or player conflicts, they're gonna have a bad time.
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#11. Sort of a meta concern, but the party needs to actually be cohesive. Playing a Cleric of Asmodeus in the same party as a Champion of Cayden Cailean is a terrible idea and one of you should stop that. PF2 is more of a team game than PF1 ever was, and that's not just relevant to party builds (as discussed in Point #8 above), but in actual in-combat tactics, and if the party can't use those effectively due to either character or player conflicts, they're gonna have a bad time
All of his points are valid, but this one especially. A group that plays really well together can make up for a lot of lost optimisation
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In terms of Medicine, as Asethe notes it depends on your other healing resources, as well as how much time you're willing to take. There are now, I think, three Classes with Focus Spells for healing (Bard, Champion, and Witch), any of those can replace Medicine in a pinch.
Druid's Goodberry makes four, though being a wisdom based class if you're taking Goodberry you're also almost certainly investing in Medicine.
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There is also the blessed one archetype which gives LoH and the Herbalist which gives access to healing elixirs.
#3 relies on more time than gold.
Highlighting this specific comment because that's a very good point. So it's really making sure that the campaign's expectations for access to cities vs availability of downtime is reflected in the PC's method of obtaining magic items. (And that GMs need to really think about it before they switch that expectation over time...at least, if it's going to change for more than a limited number of levels.)
Really, I think specifying means over ends is a fundamental problem with your list, the more I think on it.
I really appreciate this feedback - and you're right, the goals approach is much better. Thanks for putting together your list, I really like it.
Thanks to everyone for the responses so far!
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DMW put up a good list. I think I'll add that everyone should have something to do during the 10 minute breaks between fights, and ideally you want a to cover a certain set of bases.
1) Healing. Either treat sounds or certain focus spells.
2) Searching the battlefield for loot.
3) Identifying any of said loot.
4) If you use shields, someone should be repairing them.
5) Investigating clues left behind, such as a journal or encoded message.
6) Refocusing if you have focus points.
Notably, it is a bad idea to have a single character covering all of these bases because they can't do them all at once. This may not matter if time is no issue, but it isn't strictly a given. If your cleric who used their domain spell is also your medic and the only one who speaks Abyssal and is trained in a magical skill... Well, you may as well get comfortable because you're going to be there a while.
This is also where choices like Quick Identify can start to shine because they free up a PC to do get that job done and do something else.
(Also, it just feels better if everyone is actively contributing at all times.)
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I think it's good to be able to spread the load on exploration time work, but don't overdo it. If everyone is terrified of wasting their ten minutes while someone else is doing it, you'll spend most of the game session optimizing exploration activities.
What you actually want is to get the most adventuring and excitement done in your gaming evening. So if really the only important thing is healing, you could also just do the math and say "it'll take the paladin and cleric 40 minutes to heal everyone", and then move on with what the party does next.
However, you have a good point about spreading this load, because sometimes you don't have the full 40 minutes, and there are multiple things that need doing.
#3. A frontliner with martial AC, damage, and to-hit chance (technically, how they achieve these doesn't matter, though most casters will have trouble...I think there's a valid Bard build). For a really optimal party, you probably want two of these, actually.
I'd be curious about such a bard build as that's what I'm trying to create. My best effort so far is a Bard (warrior muse) with a Champion dedication.
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#3. A frontliner with martial AC, damage, and to-hit chance (technically, how they achieve these doesn't matter, though most casters will have trouble...I think there's a valid Bard build). For a really optimal party, you probably want two of these, actually.I'd be curious about such a bard build as that's what I'm trying to create. My best effort so far is a Bard (warrior muse) with a Champion dedication.
That or Sentinel plus Dirge of Doom and, eventually, Rogue Dedication for Dread Striker are basically the build. It takes a bit to get going, but hits full martial level in everything but damage (and HP, though Rogue and some other martials don't hit that either) as well as being a full caster.
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Could you sub out champion or sentinel for Hellknight feats to be a bardic signifer? That was a build I had been toying with for a while and was trying to figure how well they'd do on the front lines.
In theory, if you have two General Feats to invest purely into armor (so, basically, if you're Human and invest in it) this would work, yes.
That or Sentinel plus Dirge of Doom and, eventually, Rogue Dedication for Dread Striker are basically the build. It takes a bit to get going, but hits full martial level in everything but damage (and HP, though Rogue and some other martials don't hit that either) as well as being a full caster.#3. A frontliner with martial AC, damage, and to-hit chance (technically, how they achieve these doesn't matter, though most casters will have trouble...I think there's a valid Bard build). For a really optimal party, you probably want two of these, actually.I'd be curious about such a bard build as that's what I'm trying to create. My best effort so far is a Bard (warrior muse) with a Champion dedication.
Cool, thanks - nice to know that I'm on the right track.
I think it's good to be able to spread the load on exploration time work, but don't overdo it. If everyone is terrified of wasting their ten minutes while someone else is doing it, you'll spend most of the game session optimizing exploration activities.
What you actually want is to get the most adventuring and excitement done in your gaming evening. So if really the only important thing is healing, you could also just do the math and say "it'll take the paladin and cleric 40 minutes to heal everyone", and then move on with what the party does next.
However, you have a good point about spreading this load, because sometimes you don't have the full 40 minutes, and there are multiple things that need doing.
Sure, but optimal from a power gamer standpoint is not always the same as fun. The difference between taking an hour to clear a dungeon vs 8 hours to do so may be simply academic, but often so is the difference between doing 2 or 3 points extra damage if you finish an enemy in the same amount of rounds. The party that cleared the challenge in an eighth of the time objectively outperformed the other one, even if the same amount of time elapsed in real life.
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I think it's good to be able to spread the load on exploration time work, but don't overdo it. If everyone is terrified of wasting their ten minutes while someone else is doing it, you'll spend most of the game session optimizing exploration activities.
What you actually want is to get the most adventuring and excitement done in your gaming evening. So if really the only important thing is healing, you could also just do the math and say "it'll take the paladin and cleric 40 minutes to heal everyone", and then move on with what the party does next.
However, you have a good point about spreading this load, because sometimes you don't have the full 40 minutes, and there are multiple things that need doing.
Sure, but optimal from a power gamer standpoint is not always the same as fun. The difference between taking an hour to clear a dungeon vs 8 hours to do so may be simply academic, but often so is the difference between doing 2 or 3 points extra damage if you finish an enemy in the same amount of rounds. The party that cleared the challenge in an eighth of the time objectively outperformed the other one, even if the same amount of time elapsed in real life.
See, I think the OOC performance is much more important. I've had enough sessions where you get a situation like this:
Cleric: okay, so I need about 60 minutes to heal everyone up and get my focus back.
Rogue: well then I have to go do stuff in those 60 minutes (digression on what exactly)
Fighter: well then I have to go do stuff in those 60 minutes (digression on what exactly)
Wizard: well then I have to go do stuff in those 60 minutes (digression on what exactly)
And so what could have been handled in five minutes actually takes 20 minutes. And because this happens with two more encounters, the party isn't able to do the bossfight before the players have to go home that night. Two weeks later, everyone's a bit fuzzy on why that boss was so important to begin with and what should have been a climactic scene just kinda passes by.
Now here we see the abuse of the word "objective"; the point of playing a game is to have fun, so while in-game the result may be objectively optimal, the more important subjective goal of a big climax to the game session was missed.
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As a GM, I would not allow digressions on what the other PCs do, unless they want to split the party, leaving the Cleric alone with the wounded.
I have usually seen PCs wait the required time without doing anything specific, or the time for healing and/or get the focus point back being shortened, or even skipped, when time is too much of the essence.