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After a discussion with some fine folks on Discord I'm now in the camp that thinks they should nix spell slots in favor of leaning Martial with pervasive magical abilities.
Specifically, I'd like to see them get the Oracle's Focus Point Progression, with Focus Spells as a "Striking Spell" type thing where each one is a cool, curated, flavorful "arcane weapon technique" based on the Magus fantasy-- Flaming weapon sweep attacks, teleporting reposition strikes, lightning infused burst attacks, magically guided thrown weapons, exploding thrown weapons, the works.
These takes on Spell Strike could be curated to be balanced without having to use the pre-existing spell damage numbers exactly, have weird neat magic rider effects, and because Focus Points are so easy to recharge (and like an Oracle, you'd start with two of them) you'd be able to use them very frequently-- the game even already has support for things that interact with your focus recharge!
For those that want proper spell casting, they could create class feats that are equivalent to the caster multi-class spell-casting feats-- Basic/Expert/Master, and build them right into the Magus so that you can get real spell-casting on a multi-class progression if you want utility magic, but save yourself the dedication feat. This'd be a decent compromise I think, since the worth of that casting style is pretty well established in the system.
Class feats like Spirit Sheathe, could help to punch up the pervasive magic feel of the class, others could add more of the "arcane-martial techniques" the way you can get more Witch Lessons for that class.
This is very much in line with one of the survey questions which suggested the possibility of nixing spell slots and focusing more on "magical abilities" on a Martial-focused class. This model also makes it very different than the fighter/wizard hybrid you can already do, and might be covered by a melee equivalent to the Eldritch Archer (Eldritch Knight?), which I've seen a lot of support of. This would let the team really chase down and pursue that Blended-Martial-Magic feel that can be so hard to replicate with multi-classing (where the abilities are disparate and taken from multiple places.)
I'm sure that the Team will create something great whether or not they go this route, but I'm very much in support of it.
I haven't seen a thread taking this idea completely seriously yet, so lets see how people feel about it.
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i am not against this. I am not going to go out of my way to push it.
but i also thought that if they were to rely more on focus points.
that they should get oracle focus point progression
but also get useful focus cantrips like bard.
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I haven't seen a thread taking this idea completely seriously yet, so lets see how people feel about it.
With respect, one of the largest complaints about the Magus (besides Striking Spell itself) is the lack of spells.
Changing them to Focus Casters and allowing significant opportunities to recharge just makes Magus the go-to Class to try to exploit "recharge" mechanics, which would be the only way they'd be able to effectively replicate the casting in this regard.
I am not a fan of the current casting progression, but if they were made Focus Casters, I would like them even less.
This model also makes it very different than the fighter/wizard hybrid you can already do
It actually doesn't IMO, because it further skews the interaction into a Fighter MCD Wizard, with the only exception being Striking Spell. Sprinkling a smidge of magic on a Martial does not a Magus make (IMO).
In fact, I'd say that if the Focus Point system were adopted over spells entirely, we'd be looking at a 75/25 Martial Caster split that pretty much already exists.
Flaming weapon sweep attacks, teleporting reposition strikes, lightning infused burst attacks, magically guided thrown weapons, exploding thrown weapons, the works
I mean, "the works" in your above example is literally just attacking with a weapon over and over again with different types of damage.
That doesn't sound like a "50/50" martial/magic split to me, that sounds like a Fighter that has Striking Spell and a cantrips (which quite literally makes all of the above possible).
To quote the playtest book:
"...power of arcane magic impressive, but the combination of the two is where things get really interesting. You’re a polymath, schooled in both spells and strikes. A hefty spellbook boasts your arcane research, and your skill on the battlefield shows how you’ve trained your body"
So one, we're talking a massive lore rewrite in general, but I fail to see how a Focus caster is going to be able to reproduce the feeling of being able to cast Magic.
The only way you'd be able to allow the flexibility for spell options that an arcane polymath would have would be to allow Magi to pick Spells as Focus spells and at that point I would argue "what's the difference between that and just preparing spells?"
Even sans all the logistics some how magically coming out to be perfect (Focus Point recharging in any capacity that allows Magus to "nova" is going to be a problem period) I fail to see how this exemplifies the types of Magi that existed in PF1, that exist in the lore, or really do anything besides "I SWING MY WEAPON... YA KNOW... MAGICALLY"
But hey, that's me.
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To each their own. If people love it, who am I to disagree, but this would be a step backwards for me personally.
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While I strongly disagree with the premise, I will point out that this:
For those that want proper spell casting, they could create class feats that are equivalent to the caster multi-class spell-casting feats-- Basic/Expert/Master, and build them right into the Magus so that you can get real spell-casting on a multi-class progression if you want utility magic, but save yourself the dedication feat. This'd be a decent compromise I think, since the worth of that casting style is pretty well established in the system.
...has been considered in a similar vein to the Summoner Revelation thread where someone realized that archetyping your eidolon into other classes at the right levels is inherently balanced.
I disagree that the Magus should lose baseline casting on many fronts. Here are a few:
1. The Magus' whole reason for being is to let someone play a gish in a streamlined fashion. The idea is a person with equal parts spellcaster and fighter. Without baseline spell slots it does not fulfill this fantasy, even if it is technically an acceptable way to build a different class not called the Magus.
2. Abandoning spell slots to get some magical effects like you suggest will make it feel like a martial with a coat of paint on. That's what they did in 4e, and it is in my opinion, the easy way out that will wind up making the class bland compared to what a Magus should be.
3. In-class feats to pick up casting will be "must-take" feats
4. Class feats that grant casting at the same rate as multiclassing would make for an unsatisfying "half-caster". That spell progression is the majority of the reason why we even need a Magus class in the first place. If it was good enough, Fighter/Wizard would be the Magus.
5. This "magical effects tacked onto martial abilities" should really, really, really be given to the future Kineticist. Sending the Magus down this path will severely limit the design space of the non-spell-slot magical martial of the future.
There are other reasons, but these are my main ones.
i am not against this. I am not going to go out of my way to push it.
but i also thought that if they were to rely more on focus points.
that they should get oracle focus point progression
but also get useful focus cantrips like bard.
I think that wouldn't be bad at all-- it would solve problems with the idea of not being able to 'do Magus things often enough' people have been bringing up in regards to limited resources. You could have the more powerful focus point tier for the big showy encounter-shifting moves, and cantrips that add a little magic zest to a regular turn.
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While I’d still preffer a working spellstriking wave casting Magus, I could live with that class. It would be more of a 4e or 13th Age Swordmage at that point and even though I never played one, I saw players who had a blast with it.
But then I think Striking Spell would probably need to go in favor of focus cantrips/spells that already incorporated striking in them. If we’re going that route, why not go the booming blade, thunder blade and flame blade route rather than the ‘you out this in your sword and then maybe that spell does something on a crit’ route?
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But doing Magus things is using existing spells (which have a MUCH greater variety than your focus spell could ever have, unless your focus spells are something like "Choose 1 spell of level 3 or less, this spell becomes a focus spell for you") not doing what basically would be a Ki-Strike but magic.
gish mathematically and power budgetwise dont work in 2e the way they did in 1e.
if a magus is to remain a gish, it will severely lack something somewhere. thats just how it is.
so i find the argument that magus is supposed to be the gish as funny, if a little sad, because i know it wont ever be what people want if we hold it to that metric.
like i said, im fine with spell slots staying, and id be more than fine with a cantrip/focus oriented magus as well.
focus points are basically how a gish functions well in 2e outside of self buffing like haste/heroism/true strike/etc. wich is extremely binary/boring to me. magus is halfway into that vein right now, due to spell slots.
so, id be happy with a focus and focus cantrip magus. because imo they could more easily envision the gish in terms of playstyle even if not mechanics (no spell slots)
If a "spellslotless" magus has ways to choose his magical abilities within spell traditions, it could work. Like "you know only 4 spells, but casts them as focus spells" or something.
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-snip-
On the subject of abusing recharge mechanics, I'm proposing we use the already existing progression of the Oracle. So any exploitation is already possible as of the end of the July, any other recharge stuff is already in the game-- the familiar recharge, or the Gnome Recharge.
As for the rest, I'm thinking that the techniques are fancy in that they replicate spell effects, but are redesigned to work for the magus. when I said flaming sweeps, I was thinking more like swinging and using sheets of fire to hit multiple targets in front of you. This would let you get the best elements of the game's actual spells (in this case burning hands) with melee, while redesigning a variant of the spell specific to the Magus.
I think you're, in general, underestimating the amount of magic you can create with focus spells and focus cantrips in this scenario. The Split would be 50/50 because you'd be doing magic every turn. Your concern about "I swing my weapon... Magically!" is refuted by the simple fact that focus spells are spells and have spell like effects, so long as they don't design all the focus powers to be "I hit them with elemental damage" its unfounded.
The flavor can indeed be rewritten, this is still a playtest after all, though a spellbook as a repository for your techniques is still doable.
-snip-
As an aside, I actually love the 4e Swordmage, if we achieve something that good, its pretty much the ideal. To this day, I yearn for my 4e Wandering Swordmage when I create gish characters. I disagree with your assertion about coats of paint, but either way, I think that's mitigated by the fact that unlike 4e, the martial classes aren't on the same 'power' system as spell casters in the first place.
Here we have actual focus spells, that are spells, are a semi-limited resource (unlike martial stuff), and pure martials have no access to them, and where they've gained, its explicitly magical in that case to-- so why not make Magus's the kings of that.
I don't think in-class feats to pick up casting would be must take, simply because they'd already be must take from whatever archetype, I also don't think 1 dedication feat cost is single handedly deterring the reality you're afraid of.
I think the kineticst niche is protected because they wouldn't be focused on weapon things, and instead would probably be direct energy manipulation type stuff, they'd also be occult rather than arcane, and probably aren't interested in having intelligence as their primary stat.
Finally, i challenge you on your first point, justify for me the assertion that the Magus requires spell slots to be equal parts caster and martial-- I don't think that spell slots are an essential part of that fantasy, I think that a robust focus point take covers it as well, and even better.
While I’d still preffer a working spellstriking wave casting Magus, I could live with that class. It would be more of a 4e or 13th Age Swordmage at that point and even though I never played one, I saw players who had a blast with it.
But then I think Striking Spell would probably need to go in favor of focus cantrips/spells that already incorporated striking in them. If we’re going that route, why not go the booming blade, thunder blade and flame blade route rather than the ‘you out this in your sword and then maybe that spell does something on a crit’ route?
That is actually what I meant by "Arcane Weapon Techniques" I'm talking about replacing Striking Spell wholesale with what you're discussing here, at most I'd name them "Striking Spells" in the way the Oracle refers to their mechanic as "Revelation Spells" or Witches refer to them as "Hexes"
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But doing Magus things is using existing spells (which have a MUCH greater variety than your focus spell could ever have, unless your focus spells are something like "Choose 1 spell of level 3 or less, this spell becomes a focus spell for you") not doing what basically would be a Ki-Strike but magic.
Why? This is Pathfinder 2nd edition, not 1st, so we have to rework some things anyway. The Magus is a blend of fighting and magic, originally intended to patch glaring flaws in 3.5's core design of multiclassing. I am confident we can convey the same fantasy without being beholden to identical mechanics.
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As long as the class is functionning well, we could also MCD to get spells (if the Magus features work with any spells)
gish mathematically and power budgetwise dont work in 2e the way they did in 1e.
if a magus is to remain a gish, it will severely lack something somewhere. thats just how it is.
so i find the argument that magus is supposed to be the gish as funny, if a little sad, because i know it wont ever be what people want if we hold it to that metric.
like i said, im fine with spell slots staying, and id be more than fine with a cantrip/focus oriented magus as well.
focus points are basically how a gish functions well in 2e outside of self buffing like haste/heroism/true strike/etc. wich is extremely binary/boring to me. magus is halfway into that vein right now, due to spell slots.
so, id be happy with a focus and focus cantrip magus. because imo they could more easily envision the gish in terms of playstyle even if not mechanics (no spell slots)
i don' find focus points boring, but otherwise your last line is pretty spot on-- tailored focus spells could fulfill the magus fantasy in a way that clunkily strapping spells to weapon attacks may not be able to.
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That’s very interesting! Like I said, I’d be fine with that.
Since you like Swordmages. Have you had a look at the 13th Age Swordmage? Incidentally, one of my players brought my attention to it this weekend and, IMO, if that is not a perfect blend of martial and magic might, I don’t know what is. You can check it out in the SRD site for that system (I’d paste over here, but am typing on the cell). It tries to do exactly what you suggest.
If the alternative turns out to be crit fishing via the quasi-playtest Investigator multiple rolling short accuracy mechanic we currently have, I’d trade slotted Magus for something like that in a heartbeat.
One thing I'd like a little less would be the lack of spells to choose from, it could lend magi to be very similar (without MCD I mean).
Like, I really want to try using stuff like Cold Iron Spike with a Magus because that's kino as f***.
That’s very interesting! Like I said, I’d be fine with that.
Since you like Swordmages. Have you had a look at the 13th Age Swordmage? Incidentally, one of my players brought my attention to it this weekend and, IMO, if that is not a perfect blend of martial and magic might, I don’t know what is. You can check it out in the SRD site for that system (I’d paste over here, but am typing on the cell). It tries to do exactly what you suggest.
If the alternative turns out to be crit fishing via the quasi-playtest Investigator multiple rolling short accuracy mechanic we currently have, I’d trade slotted Magus for something like that in a heartbeat.
Just checked it out a bit and felt pangs of Nostalgia for my 4e Swordmage, I really dig it, thanks for passing it along.
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I think nixing spell slots is the easiest way to make the super magical martial class that boosts combat with powers and feats that are arcane in origin, without being an actual caster.
That class would be fairly easy to build and the ability to MC already gives it access to support spell casting slots to be the buff casting martial. It would even feel different from a Fighter/MC caster because all of its martial boosts could be tied to focus power stances that enable special attacks.
However, it really does lose out on the fun an intricate ways PF2 spell casting exists as the incredibly tactical chess game that it is (for the better for many, for the worse for the rest of us). I am hoping that the developers have some ace options up their sleeves that don't rule out spell slots.
Skimmed through 13th Swordmage and that looks fun, I'll have to join a table next time I see one.
Skimmed through 13th Swordmage and that looks fun, I'll have to join a table next time I see one.
I GM’ed for one a couple of years ago and my chin just dropped when the guy pulled out the fire lasso spell on my monster. Had forgotten about it until lately.
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Skimmed through 13th Swordmage and that looks fun, I'll have to join a table next time I see one.I GM’ed for one a couple of years ago and my chin just dropped when the guy pulled out the fire lasso spell on my monster. Had forgotten about it until lately.
Yeah I saw that. It's fun how they have a bunch of spells specific to them. I mean Pf1 kinda had some like that but this seems stricter.
The Magus would really stretch the limits of the focus spells system then, but that'd be a good think I guess ?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Skimmed through 13th Swordmage and that looks fun, I'll have to join a table next time I see one.I GM’ed for one a couple of years ago and my chin just dropped when the guy pulled out the fire lasso spell on my monster. Had forgotten about it until lately.Yeah I saw that. It's fun how they have a bunch of spells specific to them. I mean Pf1 kinda had some like that but this seems stricter.
The Magus would really stretch the limits of the focus spells system then, but that'd be a good think I guess ?
Honestly having a class that does push those limits, and gets a bunch of custom focus spells because it relies on them actually sounds super fun, I'd dig the play style of being based around my focus points. The idea of a Magus that plays like a dolphin, blowing cool tactical moves, resting for 10 minutes, and then doing it again feels awesome.
It even fits their midpoint between Wizard and Fighter, Fighter can go all day on nothing, the Wizard needs super long rests, our Magus would be able to go all day, with periodic breathers-- you can run them ragged by pressuring them with many encounters in a short time frame, but they still have staying power in most circumstances.
That's a good last point.
I assume the Magus would then get some special abilities to recharge focus in combat. The cleric has a feat for that I think so maybe the Magus will get some (like criting a spell gives you back 1FP, once every 10 minutes or once every hour)
That's a good last point.
I assume the Magus would then get some special abilities to recharge focus in combat. The cleric has a feat for that I think so maybe the Magus will get some (like criting a spell gives you back 1FP, once every 10 minutes or once every hour)
If the cleric has one then yeah probably, if not I don't think it would need one-- or it would be limited to once per day like the other focus point recharges.
Though, for a penultimate or capstone class feat, something more powerful could be neat, those are always designed to look and feel bonkers.
That's a good last point.
I assume the Magus would then get some special abilities to recharge focus in combat. The cleric has a feat for that I think so maybe the Magus will get some (like criting a spell gives you back 1FP, once every 10 minutes or once every hour)
If the cleric has one then yeah probably, if not I don't think it would need one-- or it would be limited to once per day like the other focus point recharges.
Though, for a penultimate or capstone class feat, something more powerful could be neat, those are always designed to look and feel bonkers.
Ah yes, the level 20 "Anime Character Second Wind" You were supposed to be out of power, but the cheering of your friends back home made you reach new heights. You regain all your focus points and focus refill abilities, and now your maximum is 4 FP for that encounters
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Ah yes, the level 20 "Anime Character Second Wind" [i]You were supposed to be out of power, but the cheering of your friends back home made you reach new heights. You regain all your focus points and focus refill abilities, and now your maximum is 4 FP for that encounters"That's a good last point.
I assume the Magus would then get some special abilities to recharge focus in combat. The cleric has a feat for that I think so maybe the Magus will get some (like criting a spell gives you back 1FP, once every 10 minutes or once every hour)
If the cleric has one then yeah probably, if not I don't think it would need one-- or it would be limited to once per day like the other focus point recharges.
Though, for a penultimate or capstone class feat, something more powerful could be neat, those are always designed to look and feel bonkers.
....
I like it
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Ah yes, the level 20 "Anime Character Second Wind" [i]You were supposed to be out of power, but the cheering of your friends back home made you reach new heights. You regain all your focus points and focus refill abilities, and now your maximum is 4 FP for that encounters"That's a good last point.
I assume the Magus would then get some special abilities to recharge focus in combat. The cleric has a feat for that I think so maybe the Magus will get some (like criting a spell gives you back 1FP, once every 10 minutes or once every hour)
If the cleric has one then yeah probably, if not I don't think it would need one-- or it would be limited to once per day like the other focus point recharges.
Though, for a penultimate or capstone class feat, something more powerful could be neat, those are always designed to look and feel bonkers.
....
I like it
Of course you would, weeb! (All magi are weebs anyway)
It'd make a pretty powerful captsone tho'. Maybe nerfing it a bit would make it doableEDIT: Rising Phoenix is already anime.
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After playing the Magus for a session, I had fun with it. That being said, I really liked the 4e Swordmage. I think a gish class could work as a 8 HP class that gets plenty of focus spells and ways to refocus. Also give it focus cantrips thst mimic 5e spells like Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade. They can be 2 action cantrips that include a weapon strike plus additional magical effects. Weapon cantrips plus plenty of focus spells is just as much magic as the current Magus if not more. Maybe one of the subclasses could be getting early spellcasting like arcane trickster
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I'd hate it, I'd much rather they remove spell strike.
Spell slots + martial proficiencies is what a magus needs.
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If they went focus martial I'd basically require an extra set of feats to spend to make sure I have enough variety rather than just one or two powers at low levels, and it'd need to basically all be cantrips so you can do supernatural stuff more than once per short rest.
Otherwise you just end up with the problems of a ki monk.
My only issue with focus spells is that it requires them to print specific spells for Magi, taking up more design resources than just using new arcane spells.
Maybe it could be cheated by making a thing like "Combat spell" where you chose a limited number of spells to become focus spells for you. That way the Magus still has a very wide variety of choice, that'll get richer with new books.
This could be very cool! The Druid’s Wild Shape mechanic works similarly, I think (unless I’m rusty on my Druidism, they get their Form Spells through the Wild Shape Focus Spell) and is a concept that could be expanded upon
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The more I see the ideas around here, the more I am convinced this could be a nice way to update Magus to 2e or at least a valid case for a new class (Eldritch Knight or Swordmage maybe?).
- With focus Striking Spells and cantrips, you’d have more freedom in combining the spell and the strike because you’d have a controlled environment for what effects and damage you’re looking to cause. This could open up for a better action economy and accuracy, addressing the contentious topic of spell combat, spellstrike and striking spell.
- You could insert spellcasting via a subclass or Martial Caster-like feats. I don’t know, but maybe shifting the paradigm of few high level slots in favor of low level slots that focus on what the class needs (buffs, defensive casting, etc)
- You’d make MCD relevant from both sides (Magus going out and Casters/Non casters going in). Frankly, I don’t even want to ponder the nightmare that must be making a Magus Dedication and having to balance proficiencies, striking spell and spellcasting. Plus, a Wizard or Witch MCD becomes more of an option rather than something very enticing and almost mandatory
- The concept would have a 2e facet to it and kind of explore new ground
This could be very cool! The Druid’s Wild Shape mechanic works similarly, I think (unless I’m rusty on my Druidism, they get their Form Spells through the Wild Shape Focus Spell) and is a concept that could be expanded upon
It could easily make up the 4 slots limitation when replacing it, I guess in a way it'd be similar to 5E Warlock, having very few spells but recharging them very quickly between encounters.
Maybe a downtime activity would be swapping those Combat Spells with others from your spellbook and such.
This could be very cool! The Druid’s Wild Shape mechanic works similarly, I think (unless I’m rusty on my Druidism, they get their Form Spells through the Wild Shape Focus Spell) and is a concept that could be expanded uponIt could easily make up the 4 slots limitation when replacing it, I guess in a way it'd be similar to 5E Warlock, having very few spells but recharging them very quickly between encounters.
Maybe a downtime activity would be swapping those Combat Spells with others from your spellbook and such.
Woah. I like this!
Plus you’d get the narrative of the Magus being a character that is constantly skimming through tomes and scraps of eldritch theory for what they feel works as opposed to the wizard’s scholarly approach.
This could be very cool! The Druid’s Wild Shape mechanic works similarly, I think (unless I’m rusty on my Druidism, they get their Form Spells through the Wild Shape Focus Spell) and is a concept that could be expanded uponIt could easily make up the 4 slots limitation when replacing it, I guess in a way it'd be similar to 5E Warlock, having very few spells but recharging them very quickly between encounters.
Maybe a downtime activity would be swapping those Combat Spells with others from your spellbook and such.Woah. I like this!
Plus you’d get the narrative of the Magus being a character that is constantly skimming through tomes and scraps of eldritch theory for what they feel works as opposed to the wizard’s scholarly approach.
Quick, let's send that idea in the feedback forms ! xD
Honestly I would settle with that. I guess it'd be a main featline ? Or maybe a backed in progression with some feats to improve them so you could still take a caster MCD with it if you wished.
I'd hate it, I'd much rather they remove spell strike.
Spell slots + martial proficiencies is what a magus needs.
It won't ever realize greatness that way though as it will always hit the power budget wall while being weaker than everyone at everything.
On another class I wouldn't be opposed to this, but I don't think it fits a magus at all. I'd rather see the magus get more spellcasting, as part of my hope for the class was to get a comparable number of spells quicker than a multiclassing martial and be better in combat than full casters.
Won't happen from what I've seen.
It won't ever realize greatness that way though as it will always hit the power budget wall while being weaker than everyone at everything.I'd hate it, I'd much rather they remove spell strike.
Spell slots + martial proficiencies is what a magus needs.
I agree. People who want full martial proficiency and spell slots have already seen what that looks like in the form of a Martial character MC'd with a caster. If you are wanting that + more spells out of a magus, you are basically looking for Paizo to begin the process of superseding previous content rather than providing material that is supposed to fit in along side it.
It seems pretty important that the magus offer a class feature that plays with the way that a character casts spells in combat specifically, that builds around being a martial weapon expert.
It won't ever realize greatness that way though as it will always hit the power budget wall while being weaker than everyone at everything.I'd hate it, I'd much rather they remove spell strike.
Spell slots + martial proficiencies is what a magus needs.
I agree. When reflecting on it, the 1e Magus was built around and to benefit from 1e's action economy. I feel the problem we are having is that translating those mechanics to 2e's action economy is very hard. We're basically trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
I know I've disagreed with Unicore on several topics, but they are spot on when they mention the way spell casters and spells are built in PF2 as a paradigm that the Magus either seems to demolish (and gets to play like 1e Magus while risking imbalance) or submit to (and we get a contentious class).
Which is why The-Magic-Sword's idea keeps growing on me. Building the Magus around Strikes that incorporate Magic, whether in the form of feats, stances or Focus powers and baking in some spell support (maybe with a chassis akin to the druid orders') seems neat.
This could be the same process as the one used to build the 1e class, except it would be applied to the things that make 2e unique. Could adress several concerns such as the power budget one and the balance one (also known as 'what if this gish just crits an automatic hit with a gazilion heightened shocking grasp on a single turn? - just joking).
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It won't ever realize greatness that way though as it will always hit the power budget wall while being weaker than everyone at everything.I'd hate it, I'd much rather they remove spell strike.
Spell slots + martial proficiencies is what a magus needs.
I'd settle for good enough. It should be weaker than martials at fighting and weaker than casters at casting, that's the point.
It's just a question of what kind of split is fair, 80% martial fighting + 80% caster casting? 90% seems a bit too high, 85%? I think that can be fun and effective, and is impossible with multiclassing. That's the whole point of having a gish class to me.
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It won't ever realize greatness that way though as it will always hit the power budget wall while being weaker than everyone at everything.I'd hate it, I'd much rather they remove spell strike.
Spell slots + martial proficiencies is what a magus needs.
I'd settle for good enough. It should be weaker than martials at fighting and weaker than casters at casting, that's the point.
It's just a question of what kind of split is fair, 80% martial fighting + 80% caster casting? 90% seems a bit too high, 85%? I think that can be fun and effective, and is impossible with multiclassing. That's the whole point of having a gish class to me.
Yeah, if it's literally impossible to have a class that feels like a 50-50 caster-martial that spells "significant structural changes to the system required" to me.
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My only issue with focus spells is that it requires them to print specific spells for Magi, taking up more design resources than just using new arcane spells.Maybe it could be cheated by making a thing like "Combat spell" where you chose a limited number of spells to become focus spells for you. That way the Magus still has a very wide variety of choice, that'll get richer with new books.
I think focus spells are on a very different power budget than normal spells, so granting Magus the ability to cast slot spells as focus spells would certainly create a large number of problems.
Slot spells are clearly balanced around them being something you can only recharge on a daily basis outside of some very limited class abilities, and giving a class the ability to recharge slots freely every 10 minutes would definitely break some parts of the system.
So, if such a feature were to be added, the combat spell list would have to be carefully and constantly curated to avoid game-breaking spells, so you would end up in the exact situation as if you had a predefined list of focus spells.
And as for the whole idea of making Magus a focus-only class, I'm completely against it. We've seen classes that do this like Monks or Champions and neither of those really feel like the magical warrior Magus strives to be, even if they sacrifice every single of their class feats on focus spells and focus improvements. And giving Magus MCD-style feats wouldn't solve that either, since the focus martials can open up access to those very same feats with a single class feat of their own (or even through their heritage with Ancient Elf), and doing so would still leave them at the same overall number of class feats since they have a level 1 feat whereas Magus doesn't.
Finally, Oracle getting improved focus casting is a direct result of their focus casting being counterbalanced by the oracular curse, so I don't really think it's something that can just be ported between classes like that.
And as for the whole idea of making Magus a focus-only class, I'm completely against it. We've seen classes that do this like Monks or Champions and neither of those really feel like the magical warrior Magus strives to be, even if they sacrifice every single of their class feats on focus spells and focus improvements. And giving Magus MCD-style feats wouldn't solve that either, since the focus martials can open up access to those very same feats with a single class feat of their own (or even through their heritage with Ancient Elf), and doing so would still leave them at the same overall number of class feats since they have a level 1 feat whereas Magus doesn't.
You do make fine points.
Plus, if we're being realistic, I think that regardless of whatever ideas we can come up with or theorize in that sense, completely dissociating Magus from Casting Spells would be highly unlikely, huge backlash. Might as well keep that for another class.
On another though, what about nixing striking spell in favor of combat oriented focus powers akin to 5e's booming blade, etc? They could have slots for regular caster spells and combat-oriented focus spells or cantrips to replace the spellstriking part.
I believe that what's keeping the Magus back from reaching full potential could be apprehension towards potential abuse of spellstrike + high level spells;
If the Magus was made into a focus only class, it would have to be different from Champions/Monks. It needs to be more magical. That means Focus Cantrips and plenty of Focus Spells with ways to regain focus points. Focus Cantrips alone make a huge difference because it gives you a round to round ability to do magical attacks. As I mentioned before, this could work like 5E's Booming/Greenflame Blade cantrips. For example, let's say Magus can get the "Burning Blade" Focus Cantrip. Its a 2 action spell that requires a weapon attack as part of the spell. If you hit, you deal normal weapon damage plus 1d4 fire damage. On a critical hit, you also deal persistent fire damage. A necromancy version could cause the Enfeebled condition on a crit or let you gain temp HP on a crit (Vampiric Blade). Essentially the focus cantrips let you do magical weapon attacks that deal magical damage plus cool secondary effects on a crit.
Then plenty of Focus Spells inspired by the 4E Swordmage powers. You can have feats to easily regain focus points such as the Champion's 1st level feat that lets you as a free action, once per day, regain a focus point. Maybe regain a focus point on a critical hit with a Focus Cantrip. Lots of ways to do this.
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You do make fine points.
Plus, if we're being realistic, I think that regardless of whatever ideas we can come up with or theorize in that sense, completely dissociating Magus from Casting Spells would be highly unlikely, huge backlash. Might as well keep that for another class.
This I can definitely agree on. A huge driving force behind my wanting Magus in 2e was so that there was a way to have slot casting, albeit diminished, from level 1 onward. But the idea of focus melee caster would be great to keep in mind for when Bloodrager or something similar comes along (although Bloodrager will probably be a Barbarian instinct, but it could still end up as its own class again).
On another though, what about nixing striking spell in favor of combat oriented focus powers akin to 5e's booming blade, etc? They could have slots for regular caster spells and combat-oriented focus spells or cantrips to replace the spellstriking part.
I can agree with this too. I feel like this is the exact opposite of the stated design goal of Striking Spell allowing Magi to channel all kinds of spells through their weapons, but I think that design goal is flawed anyway, so might as well throw it away for something more fitting, and melee focus cantrips/spells would fill the void left by Striking Spell nicely. I haven't played any 5e, but a quick lookup of Booming Blade makes it seem like the ideal spell to give to Magus if Striking Spell is to be nixed.
I believe that what's keeping the Magus back from reaching full potential could be apprehension towards potential abuse of spellstrike + high level spells;
True, although I think a part of that apprehension came from how Striking Spell was designed to work with every kind of spell, even full debuffs like Feeblemind or Fear. I think limiting the kinds of spells that Striking Spell works with would lower this apprehension while still letting Striking Spell be a part of the class. Or course, removing the ability to use that kind of spell with Striking Spell would no doubt limit Magus' tactical options, but I think it might be a necessary sacrifice.
If the Magus was made into a focus only class, it would have to be different from Champions/Monks. It needs to be more magical. That means Focus Cantrips and plenty of Focus Spells with ways to regain focus points. Focus Cantrips alone make a huge difference because it gives you a round to round ability to do magical attacks. As I mentioned before, this could work like 5E's Booming/Greenflame Blade cantrips. For example, let's say Magus can get the "Burning Blade" Focus Cantrip. Its a 2 action spell that requires a weapon attack as part of the spell. If you hit, you deal normal weapon damage plus 1d4 fire damage. On a critical hit, you also deal persistent fire damage. A necromancy version could cause the Enfeebled condition on a crit or let you gain temp HP on a crit (Vampiric Blade). Essentially the focus cantrips let you do magical weapon attacks that deal magical damage plus cool secondary effects on a crit.
Then plenty of Focus Spells inspired by the 4E Swordmage powers. You can have feats to easily regain focus points such as the Champion's 1st level feat that lets you as a free action, once per day, regain a focus point. Maybe regain a focus point on a critical hit with a Focus Cantrip. Lots of ways to do this.
I think the problem with this is that you have to do it while making sure focus Monks and Champions don't get invalidated by Magus. As it is, a Monk is able to spend every single class feat on ki spells if they so wish (at the cost of getting no martial class features outside of the few they get from their core progression), and a Monk who made this choice should not be significantly worse at focus spells than a Magus who only invested a portion of their class feats into focus spellcasting, so the upper limit on how much power can be packed in a martial focus casting Magus is not too high.