I think all should get to Step as part of Striking Spell at minimum, at most move to half speed, and Slide moving at full.
You know, you bringing that up really illustrates how close current Striking Spell could be to Spell Combat. Unless memory fails me, in 1e, you could Step, Strike and Cast as part of it
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I think all should get to Step as part of Striking Spell at minimum, at most move to half speed, and Slide moving at full.You know, you bringing that up really illustrates how close current Striking Spell could be to Spell Combat. Unless memory fails me, in 1e, you could Step, Strike and Cast as part of it
I've been saying it constantly :p
Just change the name and the description and it becomes spell combat.It works basically like Double Slice, just that you slap your hand full of magic in your foe's face. It even makes sense that critting the weapon strike gives you such a great opportunity that you get a +10 to your spell roll (or -10 to their save)
Action economy is fine for Slide Magus in my experience. However, some of these action economies concerns could be eased if the new book gives us a good number of 1-action cantrips/spells. I would like a free Step (at least) to be a part of the baseline Striking Spell though. That at least helps out non-Slide/Comet Magus. I also would love to get some focus cantrips like Booming/Greenflame Blade that work without Striking Spell.
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A step for free might be ok ( improved by slide casting to half stride).
But it has to be just for spellstrikes delivered through melee weapon, in order not to give it to the ranged one ( which already has range).
I'm against nerfing Slide Magus. I think the base Striking Spell could be a Step, with Slide upgrading it to a full Stride. Otherwise, Slide is rather weak compared to Sustaining Steel.
I think all should get to Step as part of Striking Spell at minimum, at most move to half speed, and Slide moving at full.You know, you bringing that up really illustrates how close current Striking Spell could be to Spell Combat. Unless memory fails me, in 1e, you could Step, Strike and Cast as part of itI've been saying it constantly :p
Just change the name and the description and it becomes spell combat.
It works basically like Double Slice, just that you slap your hand full of magic in your foe's face. It even makes sense that critting the weapon strike gives you such a great opportunity that you get a +10 to your spell roll (or -10 to their save)
Exactly! Then make Spellstrike a 4th or 6th level feat works similarly (I don't know exactly) to either the NPC or the Eldritch Archer version and you've pleased both camps.
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Exactly! Then make Spellstrike a 4th or 6th level feat works similarly (I don't know exactly) to either the NPC or the Eldritch Archer version and you've pleased both camps.I think all should get to Step as part of Striking Spell at minimum, at most move to half speed, and Slide moving at full.You know, you bringing that up really illustrates how close current Striking Spell could be to Spell Combat. Unless memory fails me, in 1e, you could Step, Strike and Cast as part of itI've been saying it constantly :p
Just change the name and the description and it becomes spell combat.
It works basically like Double Slice, just that you slap your hand full of magic in your foe's face. It even makes sense that critting the weapon strike gives you such a great opportunity that you get a +10 to your spell roll (or -10 to their save)
I would rather make it a class feature that you get around those levels (like Divine Ally, upgraded hunter's edge and so on) to make it unavailable to MCD. MCD Magus only get Spell Combat (which, as is, would be pretty damn strong on a fighter) but only Magi get Spellstrike.
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Plus that is a nice nod to the 1e Magus.
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Plus that is a nice nod to the 1e Magus.
Yeah, making Spellstrike (base) limited to attack spells, then having feats to include AoE spells, options to make them turn from single target blasts to cone/line/burst etc.
So it sounds like people definitely want the Magus features to revolve around slotted spells mixed into Martial activities, I can accept that and evolve the conversation a little:
How would we feel about potentially having multiple melee/magic options for different spells?
So, you might have an Eldritch Shot Style 'Spell Strike' specialized to help you make Spell Attacks accurate, a Swing and Cast Lubricant 'Spell Combat' that lets you move as suggested, and so forth?
This would allow them to address saving throws and spell attacks in different ways.
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Since those could remain class features this next part is technically separate:
I'm feeling like these should be low level class feats in the way things like Double Slice, Power Attack, and etc are and the Magus chassis itself should be about having the spell slots + spell casting prof it needs, and having the martial prof it needs. If there's room, you could create a replacement for synthesis that just awards one of the low level class feats.
That way if you want, you can use the class as a ready made "Warrior who can do spells or attacks" without combining them (you'd just take other feats I guess.) You could build around "I imbue my blade with a spell to hit people hard" or "I'm better fthan others at swinging and casting in the same turn" they could also easily expand this to add other variations as the game evolves.
AND in addition, while Magus would be unquestionably best at it so long as the base chassis is set up right (they'd have the better spells or the better fighting depending on what other starting class you're considering), it would be great for dipping other gishes in for the tools. Which helps every other gish in the game even if you do want to start with another class.
It sounds like we have to have slotted spells, so the above would be my preference, to have multiple ways of combining magic + weapons built into the class, in the same way other classes can combine strikes in interesting ways in their class feats.
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I am realizing that over time, I've not remembered what the proposed spell combat is.
I just want the class to not feel clunky, to not be extra RNG dependant like swashbuckler, and for cantrips to have a valid place with spell strike. Instead of it being that thing you could do but it's a trap option.
I am realizing that over time, I've not remembered what the proposed spell combat is.
I just want the class to not feel clunky, to not be extra RNG dependant like swashbuckler, and for cantrips to have a valid place with spell strike. Instead of it being that thing you could do but it's a trap option.
Not sure what proposition you are referring to exactly (since we were several giving our ideas I think). Mine is to keep Striking Spell as "Spell Combat" and oppening it to any kind of spells, you can then either release the spell as a reaction on a succesful strike (targetting the same creature as the strike). Or a single action on your next turn.
Spellstrike I suggested to make it a special type of strike (you basically announce it before doing it) that replaces a spell attack roll by a melee strike, not action cost change, but double MAP. You can do it with save spells if you are holding a charge through spell combat (or capture spell).
Mine is similar, but very bad compared to Kalaam's
Spell Combat is the current Striking Spell minus the imbued blade narrative. Lets you Strike and Cast a Spell in any order you'd like plus step and trigger synthesis exactly like the 1e version. You could even maintain the crit fishing aspect in some form (i.e. if enemy is critically hit or crit fails against the spell, you improve your strike by one step and vice-versa)
Spellstrike works like the AoA NPC's ability, except it adds double MAP and has the Fortune trait. You can combine it with Spell Combat. For a Spellstrike + Double Map Strike, just like the 1e Magus got their Strikes going. You hold the charge until the end of your next turn
Mine is similar, but very bad compared to Kalaam's
Spell Combat is the current Striking Spell minus the imbued blade narrative. Lets you Strike and Cast a Spell in any order you'd like plus step and trigger synthesis exactly like the 1e version. You could even maintain the crit fishing aspect in some form (i.e. if enemy is critically hit or crit fails against the spell, you improve your strike by one step and vice-versa)
Spellstrike works like the AoA NPC's ability, except it adds double MAP and has the Fortune trait. You can combine it with Spell Combat. For a Spellstrike + Double Map Strike, just like the 1e Magus got their Strikes going. You hold the charge until the end of your next turn
Can you walk through a couple of scenarios on how it could vary and work in play?
This does sound promising especially with the “special spell combat actions/strikes” idea that’s been floating.
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Okay! I’m gonna be honest and say I haven’t thought about this much.
Let’s start with Spell Combat. Like Kalaam said, a potential idea could be for it to work with any offensive or debuffing spell. The idea would be that you could keep the Cast + Strike (or Maneuver) and crit fishing idea.
Scenario A- could be the simplest, let’s say you use Burning Hands (hence casting first) against a bunch of Trolls and then one of them crit fails. Let’s assume you’re a Slide Magus. You then trigger your Synthesis, Stride toward them and hit with an improved resolution.
In essence, you could combine the activities in any way you see fit. For instance, maybe you cast Befuddle and then Disarm a foe. Or a grapple + shocking grasp.
Could have feats and or unique syntheses to get other activities or effects. Maybe using the effects people have suggested here.
Shooting Star would have to be reworked, but the other two could work in that sense. Maybe one that allows for self buffing and so on.
For spellstrike, its pretty much the AoA ability, but then it interacts with your Spell Combats . Could have different Strikes. One that stays on longer, one more like spell swipe, one that works like cascading ray and so on.
I know it’s abstract, but this maybe could help us get more tactical options without a too heavy accuracy or action tax.
Certainly opens up the playstyle and makes them a lot less dependent on putting their spells in their weapon just to operate a standard turn.
One thing that was really disappointing to my Magus player in the most recent game was how they almost felt punished for just casting a non attack spell because they couldn’t benefit from synthesis and felt generally encouraged to be striking.
If it were possible to feel like your core mechanic wasn’t limiting spell choice out of the gate, I think that would make the action economy feel a lot less “locked”.
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I'm not sure how since it is still two actions to cast a spell.
Well, the idea in those suggestion is to essentially delay the cast. You still spend 2 actions casting it but hold the spell to release it later for one action, most likely to try and "combo" with it in the same round.
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Yeah. Like Kalaam said, the idea would be to simplify the action economy and the routine.
As for spellstrike taking two actions, I have played with the AoA ability on my Wizard PC before the Magus came out in its playtest version. Actually, it was Fanatic66’s version, but it was based on that.
Although I can’t say much about the deeper interactions or balancing issues, I can say that in my limited experience, using an idea like mine or Kalaam’s that incorporates the Strike in the casting and ties the result of the spell to the melee attack felt great to play. I will say that you can abuse it with True Strike, which is why I suggested the Fortune trait.
To pick up from what Midnightoker said, the current Striking Spell can feel like you’ve been hit with Volcanic Eruption and are encased in hardened lava sometimes.
Sure, you can wait until round two to use other actions, but , to make a Street Fighter analogy, the 2e Magus kind of feels like you’re playing Balrog (and those 2 second button holds really hurt) while the 1e Magus had you spamming hadoukens =)
If we had both Spell Combat and Spellstrike, you’d have the tactical chesslike approach and also an effective reliable way to deliver spells through attacks with accuracy.
So I like the idea of using your reaction to cast the spell if it retains two rolls. But it doesn't mesh well with some current reactions you can get with Magus.
What I do love and hope to retain. Is the open ended way spell strike can be used with other types of strikes. The reaction doesn't necessarily interfere with this.
So the current agreed about issues of spell strike is clunky action economy (slide Magus kinda fixes this) and accuracy issues
The only thing I can think of for action economy is either making slide casting Base. Or accept that sustain steel isn't meant to have great spell strike mobility.
For accuracy we either need a way for it to be one roll, or a way for the spell to use our martial proficiency or/and item bonuses apply to the spell but only with spell strike.
I don't think item bonus to the spells via spell strike (including save spells) hurts other casters.
Just done after work thoughts.
So I like the idea of using your reaction to cast the spell if it retains two rolls. But it doesn't mesh well with some current reactions you can get with Magus.
What I do love and hope to retain. Is the open ended way spell strike can be used with other types of strikes. The reaction doesn't necessarily interfere with this.
So the current agreed about issues of spell strike is clunky action economy (slide Magus kinda fixes this) and accuracy issues
The only thing I can think of for action economy is either making slide casting Base. Or accept that sustain steel isn't meant to have great spell strike mobility.
For accuracy we either need a way for it to be one roll, or a way for the spell to use our martial proficiency or/and item bonuses apply to the spell but only with spell strike.
I don't think item bonus to the spells via spell strike (including save spells) hurts other casters.
Just done after work thoughts.
Being able to use any type of strike for sure adds value (Magus can make very good use of power attack for example) though now I wonder if we may have misread some part of the things...
Revisiting this idea in my head a couple things popped out:
If the magus loses spell slots, then they should be replaced with the ability to still cast cantrips and be considered capable of casting spells equal in level to what they would have if they did have slots so items are still on the table and they can get spell like abilities that work through feats to counter spells or do some utility type things.
Then there should be more skill feats in the secrets of magic book that let you use arcana to do minor magical things, possible even skill feats that require arcana (or another casting skill) and another skill and blend the two together into magical skill usage.
Revisiting this idea in my head a couple things popped out:
If the magus loses spell slots, then they should be replaced with the ability to still cast cantrips and be considered capable of casting spells equal in level to what they would have if they did have slots so items are still on the table and they can get spell like abilities that work through feats to counter spells or do some utility type things.
Then there should be more skill feats in the secrets of magic book that let you use arcana to do minor magical things, possible even skill feats that require arcana (or another casting skill) and another skill and blend the two together into magical skill usage.
Notably, focus spells usually do give you a tradition you're considered to be casting from, which I think might be all that's necessary?