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I've been trying to figure out what happens with Home Region and Languages in Guide 2.0, and if the changes are intentional. Home Region says this:
This is also the stage at which you should choose your character’s home region (Core Rulebook 420-429), and in the case of human characters, your ethnicity. (Core Rulebook 430-431). Home regions fulfill access requirements and prerequisites for character options. See Rarity for more information.
Looking at pages 420-429, the only regions included in that are the 10 regions of the Inner-Sea, which does not include Tian-Xia, Vudra, etc. Is it no longer legal to have a character from Tian-Xia?
The Tian ethnicity is listed, so presumably you could be Tian and be from somewhere other than Tian-Xia (or be from Tian-Xia originally), but it doesn't look like you can select anywhere in Tian-Xia as your Home Region anymore.
On languages, the Guide says:
All Pathfinder Society characters are literate and speak Common (Taldan) as well as any other languages granted by their ancestry. Regional languages (Core Rulebook 432) are uncommon and require access.
So languages that were previously widely available are now Uncommon and require access. That means that, for example, my Dwarf, who is from the Saga Lands (Varisia), can't select Tien as a bonus language, which he took when he raised his INT to 14 at 5th level, because he had traveled to Tian-Xia in Lost on the Spirit Road.
According to the chart on page 432, the only locations that have Tien available to them are "Lands of the Linnorm Kings, Realm of the Mammoth Lords, Tian Xia"
Similarly, Varisian is only available to, "Brevoy, the Gravelands, Nidal, Nirmathas, Ustalav, Varisia."
Shoanti is only "Hold of Belkzen, Varisia."
And so on for the other languages, which are all limited to very specific places. Ethnicity might also open the language up, though some of those are listed in the World Guide, not the pages referenced in the core rulebook, so if you're Tian from the Mwangi Expanse, you can select Tien as a bonus language. It's possible that being available to one nation within a region means that it's also available to the entire region, but that is not the way that the rule reads right now.
Humans also no longer appear to get their ethnic languages for free, meaning that they need to use their 1 free bonus language to select either their regional language or their ethnic language, and they can only start with both if they have a 12+ INT and use one of those bonus languages (and have a home region with access). I expect this to become even more problematic when an equivalent to the Dragon Empires Gazetteer is released, and Tian-Min, for example, will have to choose between Tien and Minkaien.
And finally, of particular note and interest, Absalom is not listed anywhere on the chart on page 432. So if a character is from Absalom, it's not clear that they can select any human languages other than their ethnic language with their bonus language.
I suspect, for example, there might be a lot of characters who speak Osiriani who no longer have access to it, since it now requires being from "Geb, Katapesh, Mana Wastes, Nex, Osirion, Rahadoum, Thuvia" which rules out the Acadamae in Korvosa or any other academic themed character from any other part of Golarion (who is not Osiriani by ethnicity).
Was all of this intentional? And if so, what do we do with the language we no longer have access to?
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The previous guide directly stated that you could take them. That doesn't seem like a mistake.
EDIT:
Bonus Languages
A character with a high Intelligence score can select bonus languages from the list of modern human languages above or the bonus languages listed in the source for the character’s ancestry.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It was a mistake in the guide. It wasn't supposed to give you access, but the way it was written it (effectively) did. It (apparently) was not supposed to.
A *lot* of humans in various scenarios speak only Minkaien or Tien, but not both, so I am not sure that is not operating as intended.
As for the second question, I have honestly no clue. I assume you remove them / retrain them for free, but I am hoping we get a blog this week or next with retraining options.
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I think what Jared is saying that it was a mistake to have the language you are quoting, not that there was a mistake in the language itself.
But that is a major change. It essentially wipes out a large portion of the bonus languages that characters have. That rule was also completely consistent with how access to languages worked in 1E, so there was no reason to think it was a mistake. We've always had access to the modern human languages as bonus languages, regardless of ancestry/race(in 1E)/ethnicity.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Sorry, I haven't had coffee yet.
Yes, Thune, you are correct.
The guide (incorrectly) carried over stuff from 1e that it should not have. That was a mistake *on the part of the guide* and has been fixed to bring it in line with the 2e ruleset.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Also, the question about whether or not you can choose a Home Region outside of the 10 listed in the core rulebook hasn't been answered.
I honestly did not see this question.
I agree, it hasn't. But I think the answer is probably either "no" or "yes, but you gain no benefits from it until information on that home region is published, and you risk it being uncommon."
What home region were you thinking of?
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Sorry, I haven't had coffee yet.
Yes, Thune, you are correct.
The guide (incorrectly) carried over stuff from 1e that it should not have. That was a mistake *on the part of the guide* and has been fixed to bring it in line with the 2e ruleset.
I think it's important to note that the core rules of 1E also did not make all of those languages common to everyone. It was a specific decision on the part of PFS to open them up, because it makes no sense that someone who spent three years in Absalom becoming a Pathfinder would not have access to learn Osiriani just because they grew up in Varisia. Or that you couldn't find someone to teach it to you by taking a language later. We're Pathfinders. We travel to other places, research ancient ruins, and talk to people from other cultures. That's the whole point of the Society, which is why we've always had access to these languages.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I think it's important to note that the core rules of 1E also did not make all of those languages common to everyone. It was a specific decision on the part of PFS to open them up, because it makes no sense that someone who spent three years in Absalom becoming a Pathfinder would not have access to learn Osiriani just because they grew up in Varisia. Or that you couldn't find someone to teach it to you by taking a language later. We're Pathfinders. We travel to other places, research ancient ruins, and talk to people from other cultures. That's the whole point of the Society, which is why we've always had access to these languages.Sorry, I haven't had coffee yet.
Yes, Thune, you are correct.
The guide (incorrectly) carried over stuff from 1e that it should not have. That was a mistake *on the part of the guide* and has been fixed to bring it in line with the 2e ruleset.
That is what "multilingual" represents (In my opinion.)
Contributor
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The Regional Languages section on Page 432 of the Core Rulebook states "These languages are uncommon outside of the region of their genesis. A character hailing from one of the regions listed below automatically has access to that language."
The languages in the corresponding table include Tien with regions Lands of the Linnorm Kings, Realm of the Mammoth Lords, and Tian Xia, and Vudrani with regions Jalmeray, Katapesh, Nex, and Vudra.
It seems like that would give access to those languages for those regions, right?
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It (EDIT: Multilingual) helps, but it's only possible to take that at 1st level if it's part of your background or for specific combinations of human heritages or ancestry feats. It's not provided by the society as a choice until 5th level, not to all schools, and still depends on being trained in Society.
Meanwhile, there are tier 1-2 scenarios where not having a specific language can be a pretty major hinderance.
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The Regional Languages section on Page 432 of the Core Rulebook states "These languages are uncommon outside of the region of their genesis. A character hailing from one of the regions listed below automatically has access to that language."
The languages in the corresponding table include Tien with regions Lands of the Linnorm Kings, Realm of the Mammoth Lords, and Tian Xia, and Vudrani with regions Jalmeray, Katapesh, Nex, and Vudra.
It seems like that would give access to those languages for those regions, right?
That is correct. We need clarification, though, whether a language being available to "Land of the Linnorm Kings" means that it's available to the entire "Saga Lands" region, or only if you're specifically from the Land of the Linnorm Kings.
As written, I don't read that line about Absalom as making the languages Common there. Though if that gets clarified to be the case, it helps things considerably.
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One of the Guide drafts explicitly spelled out that your home region was also your nationality (for purposes of things that require you to be a member of a certain nation.)
So I thing your "Home Region" is supposed to be the specific "nation" you are a member of.
But I will try to get that clarified.
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One more related item that was pointed out on the OPO Discord is that non-humans also have ethnicities. This doesn't affect languages, but it does conflict with the section under Home Region:
This is also the stage at which you should choose your character’s home region (Core Rulebook 420-429), and in the case of human characters, your ethnicity.
It's not just Humans who choose their ethnicity.
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Other than Lost omens character guide, are more non human ethnicities listed anywhere else?
I'm not sure. I usually rely on Nethys and only look to the books for verification. I had to go into the Character Guide to research that character, because there's no information on Mihrini's that I could find on Nethys or the Wiki.
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They could also be of Tian ethnicity with a Home Region of Land of the Linnorm Kings, if I understand it correctly.
EDIT: Or wait, Land of the Linnorm Kings is listed for Tien, so I think you just need the one home region, and could be any ethnicity or ancestry if you're from there.
Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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Can I confirm my understanding. If I want my character to speak Tien and Skald I need to either
a) Invest in the Multilingual Feat
or
b)Have the character's Home Region be either Tian or Lands of the Linnorm Kings and also purchase the World Traveller Boon for the one I didn't pick.
I always thought you still needed access to a language to take it with multilingual.
As for wanting Tien and Skald, being from the Saga Lands should grant access to both of those. The World Guide has a list of all languages that are common in the region, and those should be available to any character from there.
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I always thought you still needed access to a language to take it with multilingual.Can I confirm my understanding. If I want my character to speak Tien and Skald I need to either
a) Invest in the Multilingual Feat
or
b)Have the character's Home Region be either Tian or Lands of the Linnorm Kings and also purchase the World Traveller Boon for the one I didn't pick.
...that is true and problematic.
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A little gnome pulls out her law books. "Hello everyone. My name is Pip from the Envoy's Alliance Legal Defense Fund. I represent Pathfinders who find themselves in trouble. Today that includes many of us who are caught with illegal languages on our character sheets!" Pip straightens, raising her eyebrows. "But are they illegal? Truly? Let's check."
"Looking at page 18 of this seminal law book," Pip pulls out her copy of the Lost Omens World Guide, "the languages listed for the region of Absalom are 'All' along with ethnicities 'All'. If you are from Absalom, it is my deduction that you should be able to claim any regional language as your regional language."
Pip then reverently pulls out the most important law book of all, The Core Rule Book. "Although somewhat less authoritative, this line from page 432 also suggests the legality of every human tongue in Absalom." She clears her through and intones, "'Nearly every language listed here is spoken on the melting-pot streets of Absalom.'"
She turns to the jury of her peers. "Does it not make sense, that we Pathfinders, who work out of the most diverse region in the world, would have access to a wide variety of regional tongues?"
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Huh? By default they are uncommon, and Multilingual lets you take an uncommon language. That is all the access you need?
That is how I originally read it. When I went to prove Cordell wrong, I got held up on the bolded below, applying "you have access to" to the whole clause.
You learn two new languages, chosen from common languages, uncommon languages, and any others you have access to.
I am now back to thinking that my original understanding--the feat grants access--was correct, but I'm not as certain of myself.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Now that I allowed Pip to speak, I'll speak as myself. Pip, like many other characters, is the child of immigrants. I started her off with Mwangi because she still speaks it with her Mwangi grandmother.
Although I think she is currently legal (having hailed from Absalom) I feel the restriction on regional languages does not make sense for Pathfinders. As Pathfinders who travel all over Golarian, how does it break game immersion that we would not also learn the languages of the lands through which we travel? I believe this change is causing a lot of unnecessary pain to character backstories. Allowing regional languages -- not as a free option, but in place of another one of your race's bonus languages -- would allow for more diverse backstories, and should not upset game balance.
Hmm
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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.
You learn two new languages, chosen from common languages, uncommon languages, and any others you have access to.I am now back to thinking that my original understanding--the feat grants access--was correct, but I'm not as certain of myself.
the "And any you have access to" is in addition to common and uncommon. So yes, it would allow you to take a rare or unique language if you had access. (I think druidic might be rare?)
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If the world guide lists All for Absalom, that helps clarify things. Can we get a reference to the page where that chart appears added to the guide so we aren’t revisiting the question everytime someone new looks at it?
Pip holds up her copy so that Jared can transcribe it, and then realizes that she should not look at page numbers without her glasses. "Oops. Page 12 (not 18), Lost Omens World Guide."
EDITED to fix page number.
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the "And any you have access to" is in addition to common and uncommon. So yes, it would allow you to take a rare or unique language if you had access. (I think druidic might be rare?).
You learn two new languages, chosen from common languages, uncommon languages, and any others you have access to.I am now back to thinking that my original understanding--the feat grants access--was correct, but I'm not as certain of myself.
Actually, Druidic is "Secret" (i.e. not common, uncommon, rare, or unique) so the only way to get access to Druidic is to be a druid or take the Druid MCA feat.
Another side note: Based on how rarity is defined, there shouldn't (can't?) be a unique language. It would mean that *you* were the only one who knows it and nobody else could ever know it because it is somehow "one-of-a-kind" and you have the only access, thus making it useful for communication. (EDIT: Or as soon as you taught someone else, you forgot it entirely).
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Looks like page 12, not 18.
Good catch. I wrote this without my glasses, and that 12 sure looked like an 18. I edited the second of my posts to reflect that.
I feel "all" can't really mean "all" in terms of Rare or Unique languages. (Not sure if there could be a Unique language though)
I believe it is ALL in terms of regional uncommon languages. Rare languages, if they exist, should not be included.
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Now that I'm looking at the World Guide, I'm not sure referencing that is the best thing after all. Yes, Absalom says All under languages. But if we look at another region, for example The Broken Lands, which is next in the book, it lists Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Hallit, Skald, and Varisian. I don't think that's meant to make Abyssal Common for that region (though if it is, that would be great to know). Also, it conflicts with the chart in the CRB, because, for example, Brevoy only gets Varisian on that chart, but if we go by the listing in the World Guide, then everyone from The Broken Lands would have access to any of the languages I listed.
I mean, I want people to have more access to languages, so I'm ok with that. But I don't know if we can assume that's actually the case, given how much the campaign seems to want to restrict this with the new guide.
EDIT: Another example. In the CRB, The Hold of Belkzen has access to Shoanti. In the World Guide, The Eye of Dread region does not have Shoanti listed.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I don't like the idea of dismissing Lost Omens World Guide as a source, since I generally turn there first for inspiration when trying to give a regional spin to my character back stories. Even if you do dismiss it, the CRB stated that most regional languages can be found in Absalom.
I am bummed that the language of the guide changed from regional languages being common choices to uncommon choices. It's affecting all of my character's language choices, since all four of my characters selected regional languages at creation that made sense to their back stories. I will now have to change those languages to the ones to which their ancestries provided access.
I did notice that the CRB put regional languages as uncommon options, but with the guide listing them as common, I assumed that it was an uncommon option made available to Pathfinders (like Wayfinders or Kobold ancestry) because of our extensive travel.
I am holding back on shuffling around Pip's languages for the moment because she is from Absalom, and there is some uncertainty on whether being from Absalom allows access to all the regional languages, as suggested on p. 12 of Lost Omens World Guide and p. 432 of the Core Rule Book. She's a Gnome polyglot linguist, which makes the process of disentangling her various languages more daunting then normal.
My other three characters are going to have to have to adapt and shift out the regional tongues that I thought would be fitting to their backstories with ancestral ones, which in my mind is ripping out part of their personal backstories.
I plea that the campaign reconsider the idea of granting common access to regional languages for Pathfinder Society agents. It fits the story of our world-spanning organization, and I don't think it breaks any game balance.
Yours,
Hmm
I'm pretty bummed about the regional language change as well... My main PFS character is an emissary from Tian Xia who is dedicated to language and archaeology. High int, good amount of starting languages... that are no longer an option for him.
I'm going to have to completely redo his language selection at this point and probably change the concept of the character in general. Really disappointing.