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This is entirely from a feel/perception viewpoint, so math and balance aren't really the point. This is also my rambling musings; I don't have a particular thing I'm pushing for here.
The P1E Summoner felt like the main character of his own story. By which, I mean the Summoner character himself felt like the central axis for all he did. He had a main buddy he summoned (the Eidolon), but he was also the gateway for other things to come into the world, both other monsters through his Summon Monster 1-9 and Gate SLA class features as well as his spells. And while he could summon more stuff with his spells or use them to buff/heal/etc. his Eidolon, he also had general spellcasting utility, both in spells available and total spells per day.
The P2E Summoner, on the other hand, feels like you're going through the motions of making your Summoner character, only to get to the Eidolon part which is the real part of the class. You have up to four total spells with which you can summon non-Eidolon creatures. And those same up to four total spells also have to fuel the general spellcasting utility the P1E casually had. You're also sharing hp and actions. With so little breakout from the main star of the class, the Eidolon, I wonder if this version wouldn't have been better served just calling itself the Eidolon class.
To put it another way, the P1E felt like a Pokemon trainer, someone who had a main monster, other side monsters, and things he did himself to further the adventure. The P2E currently feels like Yugi from Yugioh Abridged, with the Eidolon being Yami saying "Why the hell was I not on-screen for five whole seconds?" Yugi alleges he's the main character, and we all know otherwise.
If anything, I wonder what the Summoner dedication is going to be like. With 90% of the main class being all about the Eidolon, some version of it will be what leaks through the multiclass feats. So will the hypothetical Sorcerer with Summoner dedication feats be how the P1E Summoner truly reappears in P2E?
I have to respectfully disagree. The fun of the class comes from having them work in tandem. The summoner gets, above the Eidolon:
More skills
Can wield equipment
More languages
Ancestry feats
Class feats (partial credit because some of them are evolution feats)
5 cantrips
2 spells of each level
The ability to multiclass to flesh out the Summoner in a variety of waysThere's a *lot* that the Summoner can do that the Eidolon can't, it stands to reason that they'd have to give up at least a little bit to give the Eidolon the sort of power that they do have. For me personally I'm really looking forward to giving my Eidolon Athletics proficiency with Dual Studies so he can handle the heavy lifting while I handle the social skills in the party which, bonus points, also comes with battle application in the form of demoralize, bon mot and the like.
There's a lot that you can do with the Summoner as long as you're willing to engage with the system. Skills and equipment and skill feats and such are still a part of the character. A character is more than just its class, and a Summoner is very much the main character vs the Eidolon.
But how much of that does the Summoner actually get to DO? Your actions are locked into buffing your pet or having it attack so your skills and skill feats either just sit there or your pet uses your skills. You only ever get 4 spell slots to cast from... Pretty much you have less options in combat and the exact same out of combat.
Well, I guess you have a pet to lift heavy things and reach those high shelves. :P
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This is not how my Summoner played last night at all. Beyond just all the skills and such, during combat, my Eidolon was concerned with maneuvering, flanking and combat while my Summoner was concerned with positioning relative to her chosen primary role of playing the party Healer.
That meant I needed to maneuver to stay where I could drop a 2 action heal on vulnerable members of the party, move and use Battle Medicine, and generally do the sortof things healers do.
While everyone remained in good health, my Eidolon fought.
The potency of 4 good level spell slots and Medic Dedication Battle Medicine did not leave me feeling like my Summoner was worthless, or had no value. Quite the opposite, really.
Each of the original PF1 archetypes seemed like a different class entirely as I recall. The one whose flavor best matches the original post in this thread is the Master Summoner. The Synthesist and the Broodmaster also made the summoner more dominant in different ways. If you don't take any archetype, the summoner and the eidolon are closer to equals.
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Each of the original PF1 archetypes seemed like a different class entirely as I recall. The one whose flavor best matches the original post in this thread is the Master Summoner. The Synthesist and the Broodmaster also made the summoner more dominant in different ways. If you don't take any archetype, the summoner and the eidolon are closer to equals.The basic summoner gave you 3+Cha uses of Summoned Monster IX or Gate your pick and they had a 1 minute duration per character level.
A 22 Cha Summoner could get 9 uses of those abilities and still had full spellcasting. Not 4 spell slots. Full access to spells from 1-6th at full numbers.
It was a default benefit. Not an extra not a feat. Not at the sacrifice of the Eidolon. You straight up just got those spells.
And spells per day allowances have changed since 1e.
Divine Font is 1+secondary stat Heals per day (a spell which is a community service) and this one class feature is enough to carry and define Cleric, successfully, as the best healer in the game. This is, by far, the only significant non-feat class feature other than proficiency numbers clerics get.
The 1E summoner standards are extremely unlikely to come back. Its a new game.
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The playtest summoner is not a summoner.
It never summons anything and has no real way to summon anything besides the 4 spells slots. They dont even get access to the Gate spell.
Heck the Eidolon is not even a summoned creatures its just part of your bodied that you take out when ever you want.
Horrible argument, mechanics of how it summons aside it 100% summons and can desummon the eidolon.
I do agree that I want to see other summoning abilities tied into the class, but let's not call it "not summoning" just because you don't like the mechanics behind it, that is dumb.
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Keep in mind, Paizo already knows how summon monster spells work in 2E. They don't need to test that. Which means it does not need to be in the playtest. So just because it's not in the playtest doesn't mean that it won't be in the final product. The eidolon is the unknown which needs testing.
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The Gleeful Grognard, the playtest is clear that the Summoner manifests the eidolon.
It is not a summoned monster. It is a manifested monsters.
I thought I was just reading somewhere around here from Paizo that they do not see any summons as a technical summons--as in, you never pull random creatures from elsewhere. Rather, summonses are manifestations of normal versions of said creatures?
That way, the game world doesn't have to attach a morality to combat summons--you aren't dragging some random being, possibly intelligent, to force them to die for you whenever you feel like.
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You know, I was thinking about that whole "summoners aren't that great at summoning things other than their eidolon and seem to have too few spells" and I was wondering :
What if summoners got a special pool just for summon spells, similar to the cleric's healing font? It would be based on some secondary stat, and you would pick a specific Summon spell that would get heightened to your highest level. Then, there could be feats you could pick to sustain summon spells as a free (or fourth) action, feats that give you access to another summon list (for those lists that don't have anything at first level), and feats that buff your summons. I think it would help a lot.
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The Gleeful Grognard, the playtest is clear that the Summoner manifests the eidolon.
It is not a summoned monster. It is a manifested monsters.
I thought I was just reading somewhere around here from Paizo that they do not see any summons as a technical summons--as in, you never pull random creatures from elsewhere. Rather, summonses are manifestations of normal versions of said creatures?
That way, the game world doesn't have to attach a morality to combat summons--you aren't dragging some random being, possibly intelligent, to force them to die for you whenever you feel like.
That is exactly how it works.