My Thoughts on the Summoner Class

[Dargath]

Overall I am happy with the summoner. I would prefer a touch more spellcasting as in my mind I think of it like the old school Demonology Warlock where it was just you and your Felguard. Like Burning Crusade Era.

On that note, more Eidolon Types... perhaps what I’m wanting is something like the Sorcerer but instead of bloodline it’s your Eidolon. That is, Angel, Demon, Devil, Dragon, Elemental, Fairy, Beast, Genie, Shadow, Undead, Imperial, etc.. and each is a type of Eidolon.

I think the feats are cool and I like the focus spells. I overall enjoy what’s there. It feels like a demo more than “this is exactly how it will be”.

For a Demo I love it. Demo being short for demonstration, not Demonology.

I enjoy the feats which add more functionality to your Eidolon such as the ranged attack and the wings.

I also think I’m mildly bothered by the constraints of the Eidolon determining your spell school.... for instance I would almost rather run a Beast with its offensive power kit and play as a Divine Caster with full support and healing and literally being a team, like throw haste and Heroism etc and have big heals on my Eidolon and stand in the back, as a true support character while my Beast rampages. However the Angel doubles down on forcing Divine and FOR SURE being a support Eidolon.

I think being divine and having the Devotion Shadow, like Yuna with Yojimbo where it’s a bodyguard who protects you while you heal is another interesting concept, but it’s not possible at the moment. Even just having the Dragon as a Primal spellcaster... be the dragon. Twin Dragons. Dragon Disciple Archetype.

This seems to contradict with the bloodlines Sorcerer aspect I spoke of earlier, however I think having as many options as there are bloodlines, but having the Summoner choose their Spell School separately from their Eidolon would be the most satisfying. In addition I reiterate perhaps not a full caster such as the Sorcerer but turning the dial toward more casting, perhaps 8-10 spell slots in stead of being locked into 4 forever might feel better. As it is, as a foundation, I am pleased with the Summoner. In a perfect world I suppose the advices and tweaks I have spoken of above would be implemented, however as it is and for what it’s worth I would still play and enjoy this version as well.

[Dubious Scholar]

I'll note that while the Primal list is one of the big blasting lists, it does have the full healing spell package and many offense buffs (it's already packing all the spells for buffing up an animal companion, which all work fine on an eidolon. Magic Fang, for instance).

The playtest is explicit in only showing some of the options - I think we're looking at closer to 3-4 per spell list more likely in the final book?

[Gortle]

The way hitpoints are done is a huge improvement.

I really would still have liked the eidolon and the summoner maintain separate hit point totals, and then revert the summoner to the lowest of the two when the eidolon unmanifests. Minimum one. I just think the summoner needs that. The whole point of summoning is not to put yourself in harms way. With a tied hit point total - why are you doing this? It just seems wrong.

The synthesis summoner is fine as it is.

[Dargath]

I’ve been sitting here giving it some thought and reading other people’s commentary and critiques and it looks as though conceptually in my head it would not play out quite as such on the real table top. Apparently they have no room for casting spells.

In my mind I was thinking like open the fight casting bless, send in the Eidolon to attack... but I guess the action economy doesn’t work with that. I wanted to play a support with spells like bless, heroism, vital beacon, field of life, heal, protection, sanctuary but apparently the limited spell slots doesn’t allow for much, you appear to need to burn any such buffs on your Eidolon just to help it keep up and you apparently have to spam boost eidolon every single turn.

I thought it might be a cool idea to once again draw from the Sorcerer bloodlines and grant 3 levels of focus spells based on which Eidolon you get. So if for instance you had a Fey Eidolon but you were Divine School, you could grab feats to unlock the associated Focus Spells similar to the bloodline feats.

I really think basing this off the Sorcerer and adding the Eidolon with some tweaks might be a great way to go, although you don’t necessarily get AS MUCH casting as the Sorcerer.

[Verzen]

We already 'have' spellcasters. What we do not have is a customizable battle pet that is more than just a minion and that's precisely what I and many others want the flavor of it to be.

[Gortle]

Verzen wrote:

We already 'have' spellcasters. What we do not have is a customizable battle pet that is more than just a minion and that's precisely what I and many others want the flavor of it to be.

The difficulty is getting all the feats and abilities onto the Eidolon that they need to be comparable to a martial character. Have a think about all those useful Fighter and Barbarian feats that an Eidolon just has no access to.

[Verzen]

Gortle wrote:

Verzen wrote:

We already 'have' spellcasters. What we do not have is a customizable battle pet that is more than just a minion and that's precisely what I and many others want the flavor of it to be.

The difficulty is getting all the feats and abilities onto the Eidolon that they need to be comparable to a martial character. Have a think about all those useful Fighter and Barbarian feats that an Eidolon just has no access to.

That's why our Eidolons should just be monsters with the actual traits of monsters and balance from there. Make sure they are on par with martials. Get rid of our spellcasting. Let us feel like we are a monster tamer.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

Let us feel like we are a monster tamer.

Monster Tamer is a distinct concept from Summoner.

I fully expect that Summoning will play a more significant role in the final Summoner build - as noted by Mark, they're testing less stuff related to a 'Summoning Font' or similar mechanics only because they already know how those mechanics will work.

What I'm saying is, expect more Summoning because that is also a treasured aspect of the class for many players.

For most players, that also means spellcasting.

See the OPs initial expectations relative to that front...

[Verzen]

I dont want to just summon monsters. I want my Eidolon to be a monster.

[PossibleCabbage]

I feel like "summon monsters that aren't your eidolon" should be a thing one can build a Summoner to do. But it should be entirely optional since personally I'm not that interested in doing it.

[TheGentlemanDM]

I'd personally like to see it as an optional focus spell akin to the Druid's Wild Shaping. Can replicate a bunch of Summon X spells, auto scales to full power.

It's an easy pick for those who want minions, while those who want to focus on the eidolon would just pick an evolution at that level instead.

I'd then add a separate feat at higher level that auto-buffs your summons as they come in.

This would enable any class to take Summoner Dedication to improve their minionmancy while keeping the Summoner as the best at it.

[Dargath]

Verzen wrote:

I dont want to just summon monsters. I want my Eidolon to be a monster.

And what about the class having spells suddenly makes your Eidolon not a monster...?

[TheGentlemanDM]

It occurs to me that the PF2E Druid is a good representation for how the Summoner is liable to work, and should work.

The original Druid had either an animal companion or domain spells, and could use transformation and casting all at full power.

The PF2E Druid enables you to still dabble in everything if you want, because everything is available through feat selection, but more greatly rewards you for focusing on one particular aspect through your feats.

So all Summoners get an Eidolon. The idea is too complex and takes up too much page space for it to be locked away in a subclass. But depending on your feats, you choose to focus on evolutions or summoning or teamwork abilities or whatever else the PF1E Summoner did (when it wasn't breaking the game).

[Dargath]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

It occurs to me that the PF2E Druid is a good representation for how the Summoner is liable to work, and should work.

The original Druid had either an animal companion or domain spells, and could use transformation and casting all at full power.

The PF2E Druid enables you to still dabble in everything if you want, because everything is available through feat selection, but more greatly rewards you for focusing on one particular aspect through your feats.

So all Summoners get an Eidolon. The idea is too complex and takes up too much page space for it to be locked away in a subclass. But depending on your feats, you choose to focus on evolutions or summoning or teamwork abilities or whatever else the PF1E Summoner did (when it wasn't breaking the game).

Since I didn’t play Pathfinder 1 I wasn’t really sure what a summoner was, but from reading the class it seemed like it was supposed to be a Demonology Warlock: That is a full caster with a single powerful (more powerful than any other) Warlock Minion (demon). What it later became was a minionmancer which I’m ambivalent on, but my favorite iteration was the Burning Crusade one where you had talents that would improve your minions offensive and defensive capabilities (more health, more armor, more damage) spells that would increase the demons effectiveness (Demonic Frenzy, Demonic Strength) while you cast debuffs (Curses), Damage Over Time and direct damage spells.

Now taking this to the tabletop and not being restricted to a DPS only class the possibility to play a blaster (all damage spells), a controller with Crowd Control spells and such, or even a Support/Healer as a full caster seemed fun, while also getting a whole ass angel or dinosaur or spirit to fight with you and be on the front line.

Apparently not so and apparently the class is dysfunctional and honestly when people say things like “I just want to be a martial, I want my Eidolon to be a monster” I’m not even sure what role the SUMMONER is even meant to play. Sometimes it sounds like some people wish there wasn’t even a summoner at all and you just got play “be a monster” class... something like a permanently wild formed Druid that plays like a martial with no casting. Like I’m just a giant cat that’s it. Which is fine. Maybe that’s a path you could take with feats? Maybe that’s a viable space.

Is there any space for my vision? Should I just go f!@% off and play a cleric with the beast master Archetype?