Suggestions of how to "improve" the summoner

[KrispyXIV]

BACE wrote:

shroudb wrote:

My main issue with the current Evolution pool is that they are mostly just movement options or incredibly mundane ones (large/huge, smell, etc).

We need more stuff like Eidolon covered in an energy form (flaming wyrms and etc), grabbing and constricting snakes, healing angels, mesmerising fey, and etc

In short, current evolutions are bland for lack of better word.

Honestly, same here. The eidolon already isn't as customizable as a lot of people would like. And the fact that a lot of the customization you can do is so boring just makes the problem feel even worse than it already is.

How many of these are covered by Magical Evolution/Greater Magical evolution?

Mesmerizing Fey and Healing Angels certainly are.

I assume Elemental keywords are coming, as they're referenced in some of the feats.

I dont think anyone disagrees that Grab Support is warranted, and the "Weapon Trait" evolution is likely the place to start - it could certainly use a couple more weapon traits, and a upgraded version or two.

[demon321x2]

Verzen wrote:

Uh no? Casters innately fall around 2 AC below any martial and that's IF you put a lot of points into dex. If you have 10 dex, for example, your AC is only going to be 13 compared to say a champion wearing heavy armor is at 19 (without the shield) or a monk is at 18 with 16 dex or 19 AC with 18 dex.. Rogue is at 18 AC.

The most you're hoping to get from a caster is 16 AC if you put a lot of your stats into dex. So 13-16 AC doesn't really compare with 18-19 AC.

If you want comparable AC at 3rd level, you need to devote a feat to make it work. A feat that no martial needs to devote. PLUS that feat that you devote doesn't get natural progression. They finally get expert in their unarmored defense at level...

Champion and Monk has +2 AC on everyone from level 1. That's their class feature. Heavy Armor is another +1 for anyone that gets it (Fighter/Champion). Shields are a moot point, Champions and Wizards get the same AC bonus from shields and until 20th the Champion gets nothing helping them raise a shield faster.

A level 1 wizard starting with 16 dex is behind. But by 3rd they can pick up light armor proficiency and be on par with every other martial (or 2nd for a class feat for heavy off Champion multiclass). And Bard and Druid are full casters and start with actual armor as well as Warpriest Clerics. It's not until 13th that the general armor proficiency feat falls behind and by that point you'll almost have the 20 dex expected for someone unarmored to keep up with someone in armor. Armor + Dex caps at 5 unless you have key stat dex or heavy armor where you can reach +6 or +7 with the Apex item at 20th. At 20th dex monks have the best AC in a vacuum but only at 20th.

I'd say Summoner should get light armor as part of the class and the Eidolon should get Expert at 1st so they don't have to wait till 3rd to be on the same curve as everyone else, but AC is something everyone in the party between the levels of 3 and 19 should be the same in.

[Sporkedup]

I'm not sure I like the idea as feats, but I'd like to see the ability to do tradeoffs or sidegrades with the eidolon.

So the ability to improve their attacking proficiency or dice or modifier or damage type... but at the expense of AC or saving throws or something. So it's not just "you're a partial caster with a martial-level friend" but instead more like "you're a partial caster with a complex friend that might be a hard hitter or might be a tank or might be a long-armed grappler or..."

I dunno. Eidolons as functions of a tradition with a couple features are pretty cool. But people are here for much more highly customizable animal companions, not just slightly better ones.

That's my thinking.

[shroudb]

KrispyXIV wrote:

BACE wrote:

shroudb wrote:

My main issue with the current Evolution pool is that they are mostly just movement options or incredibly mundane ones (large/huge, smell, etc).

We need more stuff like Eidolon covered in an energy form (flaming wyrms and etc), grabbing and constricting snakes, healing angels, mesmerising fey, and etc

In short, current evolutions are bland for lack of better word.

Honestly, same here. The eidolon already isn't as customizable as a lot of people would like. And the fact that a lot of the customization you can do is so boring just makes the problem feel even worse than it already is.

How many of these are covered by Magical Evolution/Greater Magical evolution?

Mesmerizing Fey and Healing Angels certainly are.

I assume Elemental keywords are coming, as they're referenced in some of the feats.

I dont think anyone disagrees that Grab Support is warranted, and the "Weapon Trait" evolution is likely the place to start - it could certainly use a couple more weapon traits, and a upgraded version or two.

i dont count either a single heal per day OR a charm that autofails due to Incapacitation and low spell level as "covered"

[graystone]

Martialmasters wrote:

You play a character that's weaker then other character's you could play while having more weaknesses and your feats are spent on making the class work as opposed to making you Excell at something.

Hmmm... Are you talking about the Alchemist? :P

[PossibleCabbage]

I want evolutions that give you special attacks. Right now we've mostly got things for movement, size, and defense but I can't invest feats for evolutions that make the Eidolon more dangerous really.

I want to make a weird cat thing with pincers and a tail stinger, it would be nice if the mechanics could back this up.

[Dubious Scholar]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I want evolutions that give you special attacks. Right now we've mostly got things for movement, size, and defense but I can't invest feats for evolutions that make the Eidolon more dangerous really.

I want to make a weird cat thing with pincers and a tail stinger, it would be nice if the mechanics could back this up.

It's less attack types and more the lack of the old riders on attacks. Weapon traits allowing grab would get you most of the way there on pincers (I don't think we'll get Grab as the monster rule). A poison or bleed option as a rider for a P/S attack gets the rest.

Those are good options to put in the feat tree I think.

[Martialmasters]

graystone wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

You play a character that's weaker then other character's you could play while having more weaknesses and your feats are spent on making the class work as opposed to making you Excell at something.

Hmmm... Are you talking about the Alchemist? :P

a sad truth