I don't know if this has been discussed before or not, I wasn't able to find a discussion for it so I apologize if this is a duplicate.
What lore skills do you actually use in your games? I'm looking for a focus on recalling knowledge in particular. Looking back on the old knowledge skill I used knowledge planes, history, and geography quite often and so will be using planar lore, historical lore, and geographical lore a lot in the games that I run. What other ones would be particularly useful?
Thank you.
I would imagine 'underworld lore' would be useful in any urban focused campaign.
if the local criminal organizations are not your enemy for the campaign, they probably work with the people that are. They are the ones that are likely hired to spy, steal, smuggle, or assassinate by whatever BBEG has a large coin purse. So they make a good lead.
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From the CRB...
Determining the Scope of Lore
Lore skills are one of the most specialized aspects of Pathfinder, but they require GM oversight, particularly in determining which Lore subcategories are acceptable for characters to select. A Lore subcategory represents a narrow focus, and thus it shouldn’t replace all or even most of an entire skill, nor should it convey vast swaths of information. For example, a single Lore subcategory doesn’t cover all religions—that’s covered by the Religion skill—but a character could have a Lore subcategory that covers a single deity. One Lore subcategory won’t cover an entire country or all of history, but it could cover a city, an ancient civilization, or one aspect of a modern country, like Taldan History Lore. A single Lore subcategory couldn’t cover the entire multiverse, but it could cover a whole plane other than the Material Plane.
With that in mind...
Looking back on the old knowledge skill I used knowledge planes, history, and geography quite often and so will be using planar lore, historical lore, and geographical lore a lot in the games that I run.
These are what the rules say you shouldn't do. These are too broad and have too much overlap. Geography is a function of nature, history is society, and planed is a combination of arcana, nature, religion, and occultism.
What constitutes a useful Lore is entirely campaign dependent. It comes down whether your GM signposts the narrow area of focus that the campaign deals with it. If you're playing Ironfang Invasion, Ironfang Legion Lore will be great. If you're playing Rise of the Runelords, pick Runelords Lore. A universal Lore misses the point.
I've been wondering if an exile from the darklands could have darklands lore, as a terrain lore in the vein of forest lore or desert lore, or if that's too broad.
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I don't know if this has been discussed before or not, I wasn't able to find a discussion for it so I apologize if this is a duplicate.
What lore skills do you actually use in your games? I'm looking for a focus on recalling knowledge in particular. Looking back on the old knowledge skill I used knowledge planes, history, and geography quite often and so will be using planar lore, historical lore, and geographical lore a lot in the games that I run. What other ones would be particularly useful?
Thank you.
Sounds like you're running... Arcana, Society, and Nature? Those aren't really lores so much as they are incredibly broad areas. My players inform me what Lores to use in my game through their choices as characters.
Look to your players' Lores as ways to involve and reward their background and role-playing. "Y'know, I actually had seen a few set ups like this before...," notes the sorcerer with Warfare lore minutes before the attacking force attempts a feint.
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As Captain Morgan says, you are very specifically not to make them too broad, and Geography and History are definitely too broad. I'd personally allow Planar Lore in a very academic 'this is how the Planes work on a metaphysical level' sense, but it would allow identification of neither creatures, nor details of particular Planes beyond the basics. Lore about a specific Outer Plane I'd definitely allow, in the same was as terrain Lores, though. So Heaven Lore or Abyss Lore to know what the appropriate plane is like.
I've been wondering if an exile from the darklands could have darklands lore, as a terrain lore in the vein of forest lore or desert lore, or if that's too broad.
Darklands Lore is, in fact, a specifically listed example Lore. I don't remember if it's in the corebook, but it's in the AoA Player's Guide in exactly this context (ie: as a terrain lore option along with Jungle, Desert, and the like).
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Darklands Lore is, in fact, a specifically listed example Lore. I don't remember if it's in the corebook, but it's in the AoA Player's Guide in exactly this context (ie: as a terrain lore option along with Jungle, Desert, and the like).
Reputation Seeker Background, Age of Ashes Player's Guide pg. 5
"You're trained in the Survival skill, and the Darklands, Desert, or Jungle Lore skill."
Here's a question: how many different types of Lores would a Wizard need to take to be able to reliably identify all monster types with their Intelligence modifier? Is Lore(Undead) too broad?
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Here's a question: how many different types of Lores would a Wizard need to take to be able to reliably identify all monster types with their Intelligence modifier? Is Lore(Undead) too broad?
In fact, there are several Backgrounds that grant Undead Lore very specifically (Whispering Way Scion, Geb Crusader, Quick, and Lastwall Survivor, if you want a list). Which makes sense, the limit is 'not as broad as an actual non-Lore Skill' and Religion covers both Undead and a number of other creature types.
I do think that specific creature types are probably as broad as Lore should get though, which makes for 8 Lores needed to do this (Animal, Fey, Fungus, Plant, Celestial, Fiend, Monitor, and Undead).
Here's a question: how many different types of Lores would a Wizard need to take to be able to reliably identify all monster types with their Intelligence modifier? Is Lore(Undead) too broad?In fact, there are several Backgrounds that grant Undead Lore very specifically (Whispering Way Scion, Geb Crusader, Quick, and Lastwall Survivor, if you want a list). Which makes sense, the limit is 'not as broad as an actual non-Lore Skill' and Religion covers both Undead and a number of other creature types.
I do think that specific creature types are probably as broad as Lore should get though, which makes for 8 Lores needed to do this (Animal, Fey, Fungus, Plant, Celestial, Fiend, Monitor, and Undead).
Hmmm.... 16 int. 18 if you want to grab society too just to be safe.
Take a background with occultism (note- no relevant lore skills here, from what i see), and arcana comes with the class. You get 2 skills before int from the class. Human with the skilled heritage nets you 1 more. Natural skill grants you 2.
So you could be trained in every monster Id by level 1.
Although you might want to grab some of those through the Additional Lore skill feat when possible. That feat can be taken several times, and it grants both the skill and automatic skill increases at 3/7/15. This is more of a level progression issue at that point.
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Society is necessary to cover all creature types, since it is the only Skill for Humanoids. I mean, I guess you could get Humanoid Lore instead, but there'd be little point.
And looking over the other categories, I seem to be correct that creature types are valid choices in general, with Animal Lore showing up several times in Backgrounds, and Fiend Lore once, proving that categories other than Undead are legal and acceptable. Dragon Lore is also around, as I'm sure are several other examples.
Personally, I think going for all 8 is rather unwieldy, but grabbing an Additional Lore Feat for one or two you think will be relevant to a particular campaign and sticking with only Trained in Religion and Nature is pretty valid for a Wizard who wants to be a knowledge specialist.
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I do wish it was more viable to use background Lores on a wisdom based character, though. Undead Lore would naturally pair with Religion, except that most characters will have a better wisdom modifier than intelligence and are more likely to put skill increases in Religion anyway. So you'd need a much lower Lore DC before you'd want to start rolling it.
In an AoA game my Gnome Ranger took up Lore Traps. My GM and I have been using it in the knowledge sense, so can’t disarm with it, but allowing it to include magical traps for identifying general capabilities and appropriate skills to disarm said traps with.
My character in Extinction Curse is getting good use from Fiend Lore.
I think that Humanoids Lore would be too broad of a category to get more than a -1 on the DC vs. Society. As a GM, I would want something more specific, like Orc Lore, Goblinoid Lore. etc.
Even something like Giant Lore would be useful for "true" giants like Frost Giant or Fire Giant, but not as useful for Cyclopeses or Trolls.
While Fiend Lore will allow you to ID a creature as a Demon instead of a Devil, if you want a reduction in Recall Knowledge for if their weakness is Cold Iron or Silver, I would want Demon Lore instead.
I am also a fan of letting players stretch their lores, even if it doesn't give a reduce DC. Say using Abyssal Lore to ID a Demon, but at the same DC as Religion.
I do wish it was more viable to use background Lores on a wisdom based character, though. Undead Lore would naturally pair with Religion, except that most characters will have a better wisdom modifier than intelligence and are more likely to put skill increases in Religion anyway. So you'd need a much lower Lore DC before you'd want to start rolling it.
I kind of like that they are Int, giving Int characters a chance to roll on those kind of rolls with a Wis rolling Religion. For example a investigator or mastermind rogue could pick up Lore: Undead and Lore: Animal [and/or Beasts, Fey, Plants] instead of Nature and Religion for their creature identification needs and get a better roll even if they don't get a reduction in the DC.
For the Wis character, it might be nice to see a skill feat that allows you to use your Wis for Lore checks that overlap with your non-lore skills: you could roll the non-lore skill in place of a Lore check [ie, nature instead of a Lore: Animal check] for a similar affect.
It's the Cha character that's the odd man out for Recall checks.
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I think that Humanoids Lore would be too broad of a category to get more than a -1 on the DC vs. Society. As a GM, I would want something more specific, like Orc Lore, Goblinoid Lore. etc.
-1 DCs aren't provided for by the rules. It's -0 or -2. And yeah, Humanoid Lore is broader even than most of the rest of the 'Type' Lores and I could definitely see not even a -2 for it.
Even something like Giant Lore would be useful for "true" giants like Frost Giant or Fire Giant, but not as useful for Cyclopeses or Trolls.
Cyclopes and Trolls have the Giant type. Not allowing Giant Lore, including any DC reductions, to work on them is seriously unfair to the player who possesses it. Now, a more specific 'True Giant Lore' seems fine, but they'd need to pick that specifically. If someone takes a Lore with a game trait in the name, they have a right to expect it to work when that game trait is relevant.
While Fiend Lore will allow you to ID a creature as a Demon instead of a Devil, if you want a reduction in Recall Knowledge for if their weakness is Cold Iron or Silver, I would want Demon Lore instead.
Fiend Lore should unambiguously work as well as Religion for identifying creatures of the Fiend type as well as their weaknesses and so on. Whether it works better is more of a GM call, though I think -2 DC (though no more) is appropriate given its much narrower focus than Religion. Demon Lore specifically would then get more like -5, which sounds right to me.
I am also a fan of letting players stretch their lores, even if it doesn't give a reduce DC. Say using Abyssal Lore to ID a Demon, but at the same DC as Religion.
I'd definitely agree with this.
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Thank you for all the input. I have to change the way I was thinking about Lore. I was just equating it to knowledge. Thanks for the clarification.
I like to add new Lores based on how my character earns money outside of adventuring. For example, I have a half-elf con man who passes himself off as a noble. He started with Underground Lore (criminal background) but gained Courtier Lore (additional lore), because he earns money through his social interaction interactions with nobility (gifts, opportunities, etc.). Admittedly, I don't know if Courtier is the best way to phrase it, but I felt Con Lore or Confidence Lore was too broad.
In the campaign I'm running, dream, sailing, and warfare lore have all been rolled quite often, on accounts that it's about hunting a sentient nightmare creature that likes to besiege towns to plunge then into nighttime suffering and takes place on an island chain. Darklands lore became handy later since the bbeg lives there
I feel like most lores are pretty campaign dependent on usefulnes, and if the game has recurring themes, it's fairly apparent which ones are good. At a home game, I'd ask the GM of a certain lore would be helpful; most GMs want your choices to matter
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-1 DCs aren't provided for by the rules. It's -0 or -2.
Is -5 DC for specific Lore not also a thing? I routinely refer to Archives of Nethys for monster stat blocks when GMing, and it generally presents three DCs for Recall Knowledge. Using Cyclops as an example, since it came up already:
Recall Knowledge - Humanoid (Society): DC 22
Unspecific Lore: DC 20
Specific Lore: DC 17
So, I’d say DC 22 for Society, DC 20 for Giant Lore, and DC 17 for Cyclops Lore.
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I think there's been a slight shift since the CRB towards allowing a bit more general lores.
If you read the CRB alone, you'd think Undead Lore would be way too broad. It's Vampire or Ghoul Lore you want.
But then quite a lot of hardcover books after that keep making backgrounds and archetypes that use Undead Lore.
And to be fair: if you compare Undead Lore to Religion, there's still a lot of material left in Religion without the undead.
I think the original take was too extremely narrow to the point where it feels pointless. Lores at just about the level of a major or minor creature trait makes sense. Let the ones focused on a minor trait have a bigger DC benefit. The ones focused on a major species trait might not get a DC benefit or only a -2 one. But it also allows you to switch it to being Int-driven, which matters a lot to some classes, like the wizard who reads about undead.