Do melee Ranger work with an Animal Companion?

[Dargath]

In my limited experience it would seem they don’t.... unless there’s an archetype or something you can take on to save on action economy.

Turn 1 you’d want to hunt prey, then stride, then strike (if dual wielding using twin takedown)... okay but now there’s no room to command an animal. Or maybe you just don’t ever Hunt Prey?

Would it be like Command An Animal, Stride, Stride?

Could you do anything besides dual-wield? Sword and shield... when would you ever have the action economy to raise shield? With a two-handed weapon at least looking at the Mauler Archetype most seem to be 2 or 3 action abilities and often don’t include a stride.

It almost feels like they’re exclusively for Rangers who favor ranged weapons?

[pauljathome]

Once the ranger gets a mature companion it can do a single action on its own which helps a lot. The beastmaster archetype gets this at level 4 and is a good pick for a ranger unless you have some other archetype in mind.

But a ranger is usually fine. You don't usually need to BOTH hunt prey and move so you usually have an action to fight (generally getting 2 attacks), an action to command the animal, and another action to move or raise shield or whatever. If you DO need the actions for something else having the AC miss a turn is hardly the end of the world

[NielsenE]

You shouldn't have to Hunt Prey every turn.

So round 1 probably does look like Hunt Prey, Stride/Step, (some kind of strike).
Round 2 probably is Command AC (some move(s), strike), (move if needed), strike, strike (if actions left).

Keeping the AC out of combat for one round, tends to help with their survivability too,

Of course if the enemies come to you (higher initiative/you delay/etc) that can let you get the AC into play on round one as well. In no case do you want to Hunt Prey, Double move, or Hunt prep, single move, double move AC ... that's jsut leaving your or your AC open to a lot of attacks.

[Dargath]

Ah this makes more sense. I was struggling to use my Wolf as a Goblin Ranger at level 1. I found myself having to like move, interact to open a door, strike... and didn’t have an action to command my animal. Feels like anytime there’s anything other than being in melee already able to strike there’s not much room left for other actions.

[NielsenE]

I do think a melee ranger w/ AC is likely to want to delay in a lot of settings -- you want opponents to move up, you want allies to open doors, etc. You'll always be action starved. Of course knowing when you can't delay, and you have to charge ahead to engage ranged opponents is always a tricky analysis.

[Angel Hunter D]

I've been messing around with a goblin Ranger that rides a wolf companion - seems to work ok in theory. Flurry helps with MAP, riding helps with action economy. Shield does seem a little too much for it though.

[Dargath]

Angel Hunter D wrote:

I've been messing around with a goblin Ranger that rides a wolf companion - seems to work ok in theory. Flurry helps with MAP, riding helps with action economy. Shield does seem a little too much for it though.

I’ve done my own build of that but it doesn’t work until level 2. Taking the Cavalier Dedication Feat and having faster Animal Companion (Mount) progression while still being able to dual-wield. Striking with the AC first (since you’re tied to the same MAP) but using Agile weapons for flurry mitigates it somewhat. You can still attack twice with Twin Takedown which you retrain into after level 1.

[N N 959]

Dargath wrote:

DO MELEE RANGER WORK WITH AN ANIMAL COMPANION?

That depends on what you mean by "work."

I can tell you my experience/opinion playing a TWF Flurry Ranger and you can decide if the information is useful.

The design is often self-defeating. I've said this before and I'll repeat it here, the class is a mess. The Ranger is probably the only martial you'll find where people are telling you to forego using your pivot for some reason or another, to do the main thing a Ranger seems to be designed for: combat.

Hunt Prey is a combat collar. Pun intended. As you've noted, anytime you use Hunt, Stride, Strike, you can't command your animal. There's no way around this for melee, unless you can designate a Prey before Init, but IME, that saves actions about 10% of the time. Every time your Prey dies or you have to switch Prey, you're faced with another H+S+S and no actions to Command Animal.

NPCs die too quickly. So there are like three tiers of foes: mooks, captains, bosses. IME, none of them last long enough to leverage Hunt Prey. Playing PFS, I am in parties of 5-6. I've had bosses typically die in rounds 1-2, even with mooks. Obviously this can get extended if there's some environmental reason players can't attack or the creature has some specific immunity/ability.

It's possible that PFS has intentionally soft-balled encounters in this first year, you know...because lots of TPKs would be bad (and there were a lot of the in the Playtest). I haven't played an AP's, so I can't speak to that facet.

The Ranger/Companion are too lightly armored. In the rare instances that a boss fight lasts more than a round, the Ranger is typically at tremendous risk in melee. I've seen melee Rangers charge in and go down

So far, my Ranger starts outs with H+S+S. If it's a boss, I will typically try and let it come to me, but that usually doesn't work because some other PC will charge in and force the action. That forces me to Stride.

Once I get in melee, then I will try and get my AC into Support. Typically the NPC dies before this happens. Out of like 20 encounters, I've gotten Support or Attack benefit like 2-4 times. So ime, the overwhelming number of single foes, I don't get any benefit from the AC.

Warden spells exacerbate the problem. As you know, the APG added both a companion heal and a Gravity Weapon (bow/blades) spell. Both of these require actions. Actions you can't spare if you want to get Support and leverage Flurry.

How does this all add up?

1. Ignore Companion until you have actions. What "works" for me, is to simply ignore the ACom until a situation arises where I can start the round with Hunt up or I don't have to move (and really this has nothing to do with Flurry because I'm only ever getting TT).

2. Companion doesn't really need Hunt Prey below lvl 6. If using/attacking with your AC is a priority, then Hunt Prey is not so crucial below lvl 6 The Support mechanic doesn't require Prey. So your ACom only benefits from Hunt if it's attacking directly. That means you could forego using HP until your ACom is in melee and then Hunt Prey + Stride + ComAn/Strike. But as you can see, that Action problem doesn't go away. You either give up an ACom benefit, or you walk into the foe and let it have a go at you before you attack.

At level 6, Mature Companion changes the game for Precision (in theory). Once your Prey gets into melee, it gets a free action to attack your Prey. That works great for Precision, does nothing for Flurry, unless you Com Anim to make it attack. In practice, if your relying on the 1 free action per round, your Prey may spend most of its time chasing after your new Prey. Recognize the NPC simply has to take a Step to continually chew up your ACom's 1 free action. If you get Double Prey, then you're probably going to get more attack actions.

Unfortunately the ACom is a crit magnet. You'll find some bosses crit'ing it on the 3rd attack. Some GMs seem to avoid attacking it out of pity, but some will choose it over another PC, so YMMV. The bottom line is that as a proxy for combat, the ACom is exposed. Some of the Warden spells try to address this (which is Paizo implicitly acknowledging the issue). But remember, those spells all take Actions. So any round you're Healing or buffing AC, or whatever, this has severe impact on your combat output.

Personally, I would argue that an ACom and Ranger don't work well, especially not at low level. The integration feels at odds with itself. The fact that you can't Hunt Prey, attack and get benefit from your ACom in the same round is an undeniably indication of bad design. At higher levels, I think there are some more options so maybe there's a formula you can find that works well enough (better than it has0 that you'll take it because your bar and expectation has been so severely downgraded.

Just for reference, in PF1, none of these issues existed. Commanding the ACom was a Free action. So comparatively, this feels broken. But it's also worth pointing out that in PF1 Core, you don't get the ACom until lvl 4 and even then its cannon fodder. It wasn't until Boon Companion came out in a supplement that an ACom could actually survive a same level encounter. So it's kind of odd that Paizo insisted on trying to give the class a combat animal at level 1.

At this point, I'd say a ranged Ranger is going to be able to activate the Companion more than a melee Ranger. I'm not sure who is going to do more damage.

[Angel Hunter D]

Dargath wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

I've been messing around with a goblin Ranger that rides a wolf companion - seems to work ok in theory. Flurry helps with MAP, riding helps with action economy. Shield does seem a little too much for it though.

I’ve done my own build of that but it doesn’t work until level 2. Taking the Cavalier Dedication Feat and having faster Animal Companion (Mount) progression while still being able to dual-wield. Striking with the AC first (since you’re tied to the same MAP) but using Agile weapons for flurry mitigates it somewhat. You can still attack twice with Twin Takedown which you retrain into after level 1.

That's exactly what I'm thinking

[pauljathome]

Angel Hunter D wrote:

Dargath wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

I've been messing around with a goblin Ranger that rides a wolf companion - seems to work ok in theory. Flurry helps with MAP, riding helps with action economy. Shield does seem a little too much for it though.

I’ve done my own build of that but it doesn’t work until level 2. Taking the Cavalier Dedication Feat and having faster Animal Companion (Mount) progression while still being able to dual-wield. Striking with the AC first (since you’re tied to the same MAP) but using Agile weapons for flurry mitigates it somewhat. You can still attack twice with Twin Takedown which you retrain into after level 1.

That's exactly what I'm thinking

Note that Beastmaster has one huge advantage over Cavalier in that it gives you a choice of mounts. My "cavalier" took the Beastmaster archetype for exactly this reason.

The Cavalier IS a better cavalier if you're ok with the mount restriction although not by a huge amount

[pauljathome]

N N 959 wrote:

Unfortunately the ACom is a crit magnet

That really isn't true if you take a Dex based Animal Vompanion and give it light barding. It won't have the AC of a shield using character or a heavy armor user but it will be quite competitive as long as you're using the quicker progression from Beastmaster/cavalier.

I also think that Nimble is far better than Savage for exactly this reason. The extra AC is far more important to me than the extra damage

[N N 959]

pauljathome wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

Unfortunately the ACom is a crit magnet

That really isn't true if you take a Dex based Animal Vompanion and give it light barding.

And if you don't?

[citricking]

N N 959 wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

Unfortunately the ACom is a crit magnet

That really isn't true if you take a Dex based Animal Vompanion and give it light barding.

And if you don't?

This is an RPG, there are going to be trap options.

Going flurry edge is often a trap option. Going flurry with an animal companion that is not a mount is definitely a trap option.

Flurry is already hard to use in melee because of all the actions needed, but flurry edge with a riding Drake mount is definitely a good option.

Attacking with an animal companion is for precision edge rangers, not flurry rangers.

[N N 959]

citricking wrote:

This is an RPG, there are going to be trap options.***Going flurry edge is often a trap option. Going flurry with an animal companion that is not a mount is definitely a trap option.

That's a disappointing statement, considering that Flurry was the the default/only ability for the Ranger in the Playtest.

If you're telling people that Flurry with an ACom is a "trap option" (which you are), then I think there's a strong argument that Paizo screwed up this class because the Ranger + ACom was designed around Flurry, not Precision. And you're not even basing that on the issue with ACom armor class if you don't go Nimble.

During the Playtest I asked why Paizo was putting so much effort into making sure the Fighter/Wizard combo worked. I think Mark's words were something to the effect that they wanted to make sure it worked because people were going to want to play it. You'd think they'd have done the same thing with Flurry + ACom's on the Ranger?

Oh well.

[Cyouni]

Flurry + Companion seems to be a nonbo in general. Any action spent on not attacking is bad for Flurry, which is really more a problem with Flurry than the companion.

For any other edge, it works fine, but at low levels can definitely suffer from action choking. That said, if you're already in melee it provides incredibly good value for your third action - you can use the companion to flank and get an extra attack in with edge benefit, or can flank and get support benefit.

[Dargath]

pauljathome wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

Dargath wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

I've been messing around with a goblin Ranger that rides a wolf companion - seems to work ok in theory. Flurry helps with MAP, riding helps with action economy. Shield does seem a little too much for it though.

I’ve done my own build of that but it doesn’t work until level 2. Taking the Cavalier Dedication Feat and having faster Animal Companion (Mount) progression while still being able to dual-wield. Striking with the AC first (since you’re tied to the same MAP) but using Agile weapons for flurry mitigates it somewhat. You can still attack twice with Twin Takedown which you retrain into after level 1.

That's exactly what I'm thinking

Note that Beastmaster has one huge advantage over Cavalier in that it gives you a choice of mounts. My "cavalier" took the Beastmaster archetype for exactly this reason.

The Cavalier IS a better cavalier if you're ok with the mount restriction although not by a huge amount

By being a Goblin and taking Rough Rider the feat explicitly states you can take a wolf no matter what, even if you would normally only be able to take a companion with the mount trait, such as the Champion’s Divine Steed ability (or whatever it’s called).

[Dargath]

citricking wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

Unfortunately the ACom is a crit magnet

That really isn't true if you take a Dex based Animal Vompanion and give it light barding.

And if you don't?

This is an RPG, there are going to be trap options.

Going flurry edge is often a trap option. Going flurry with an animal companion that is not a mount is definitely a trap option.

Flurry is already hard to use in melee because of all the actions needed, but flurry edge with a riding Drake mount is definitely a good option.

Attacking with an animal companion is for precision edge rangers, not flurry rangers.

I also figured out how to make a “Scar-Veteran on Cold One” taking a Lizardman race with a Riding Drake Mount and flavoring as it a raptor looking creature. Using Cavalier (again) you can be a cycle charging hit and runner and still be able to strike at least once. At level 1 take Gravity Weapon and take precision edge. When you strike with a lance or sword you’ll be do weapon damage +2d8 which seems pretty beefy for one hit per turn basically.

Basically a Lizardman Knight haha

[Dargath]

I don’t know when the build would “come online” but I believe the next character I am going to actively play in a campaign coming up this Friday is an Orc Ranger who is taking ACom at level 1 and Dual-Weapon Warrior at level 2, then the one that lets you throw at level 4. Using Hatchets he would have 20 ft throwing range on Hunt Prey target and with returning runes he could throw until the close into melee and continue to attack effectively in melee, or perhaps I might pick up Skirmishing Strike to sort of “kite” if I can fit it in.

Or I could just go with a bow... but throwing axes seemed fun :/

I honestly don’t know the best way to build an animal companion Ranger, I don’t know what the right hunter’s edge choice is and what may or may not be trap options. I do know that’s my favorite kind of character and I play an Orc Beast Master Ranger in WoW and maybe that’s the answer - just run a character with a normal bow and ACom and that’s it.

[Squiggit]

Dargath wrote:

I don’t know what the right hunter’s edge choice is and what may or may not be trap options.

Trap might be a strong word, but Flurry is designed specifically for enabling attacking as much as possible, so any build that has stuff they want to do other than attacking is automatically working against what Flurry does. Mathematically, Flurry's starts being competitive when you're spending your entire turn doing nothing but attacking.

Double Slice uses your current MAP when you attack with it, so if you say... Double Slice + Command you're not getting to use Flurry at all that entire round. So I don't think it really makes sense with that kind of build.

[Dargath]

Squiggit wrote:

Dargath wrote:

I don’t know what the right hunter’s edge choice is and what may or may not be trap options.

Trap might be a strong word, but Flurry is designed specifically for enabling attacking as much as possible, so any build that has stuff they want to do other than attacking is automatically working against what Flurry does. Mathematically, Flurry's starts being competitive when you're spending your entire turn doing nothing but attacking.

Double Slice uses your current MAP when you attack with it, so if you say... Double Slice + Command you're not getting to use Flurry at all that entire round. So I don't think it really makes sense with that kind of build.

Yes and no. For a Cavalier where they’re riding their animal companion and they share an MAP they’re attacking with their animal companion first (because it would be at 0 MAP) and then probably Twin-Take down, with Flurry and Agile I believe putting it at -2/-4 I believe. This makes your animal companion more accurate and you’re already accurate.

However if you aren’t riding your ACom and you’re not sharing an MAP I reckon it doesn’t make much since. Perhaps you’d be better off with Precision to couple with Double Slice (from melee or range).

[WWHsmackdown]

I played a lvl 11 orc precision ranger weilding a greataxe and having a hyena animal companion (basically wanted a worg from the lotr movies). Like other people have said if you build for one meaty hit and then command your AC it's pretty fun. I didn't have to deal with low level struggles but I'm guessing I'd just command my AC on turn 2 until the ranger upgrade came online at lvl 6. Precision really benefits from using the ranger companion over beast master or cavalier. Your AC hitting for 3d8 after you had hit for 2d12+1d8 really put a smile on my face, regardless of whether or not the flurry edges out math wise at any point (idk). Going to lvl 20 I'd take all the feats that increase my hunt prey and share it around with party members to either alleviate action economy or buff allies depending on the threat. Even if flurry is strictly worse with an animal companion I think the math is close enough to hand wave for the people who wanna get into a tussle with their animal buddy close by. The fact that it works in p2e compared to the dumpster fire beast master of dnd 5e I think is a huge victory for ranger fans

[BluLion]

N N 959 wrote:

citricking wrote:

This is an RPG, there are going to be trap options.***Going flurry edge is often a trap option. Going flurry with an animal companion that is not a mount is definitely a trap option.

That's a disappointing statement, considering that Flurry was the the default/only ability for the Ranger in the Playtest.

If you're telling people that Flurry with an ACom is a "trap option" (which you are), then I think there's a strong argument that Paizo screwed up this class because the Ranger + ACom was designed around Flurry, not Precision. And you're not even basing that on the issue with ACom armor class if you don't go Nimble.

During the Playtest I asked why Paizo was putting so much effort into making sure the Fighter/Wizard combo worked. I think Mark's words were something to the effect that they wanted to make sure it worked because people were going to want to play it. You'd think they'd have done the same thing with Flurry + ACom's on the Ranger?

Oh well.

I'm sure trap is a strong word, since there's feats that make multiple strikes more efficient (heck, eventually you get a feat that lets you make 6 attacks), but when I look at it, I'm pretty sure animal companion does not mix with flurry, since you and the ac use different MAP tracking, and you rarely ever get 3+ attacks.

[pauljathome]

Flurry and Animal Companion is NOT at all a trap. It is a VERY viable option and competes very well with other options. It is arguably BETTER than a pure flurry ranger.

Even with the Rangers reduced MAP modifiers the Animal Companions first attack is BETTER than the Rangers third attack.

And it's not even an action at level 4 if you start adjacent to an enemy.

Not to mention using the support benefit from an Animal Companion can be wonderful on a flurry ranger (bear is great, velociraptor is great).

Or you can ride it and get insane movement for 1 action. Blowing a feat or 2 ONLY to essentially give you a 80 foot move speed is hardly a trap.

And that is all just taking the offensive value of the Animal Companion into account. It is also adding defensive value (another body on the board, extra hit points on the board).

And sometimes it even has value out if combat (rarely, but it DOES happen, more so if you build for it).

Obviously, like every other character defining option in the game, you have to build your character AROUND the Animal Companion and not just toss it in at the last minute. But if you build a "flurry +Animal Companion" character you'll be doing just fine. Almost certainly BETTER than a character that is "just" a flurry ranger.

[RexAliquid]

N N 959 wrote:

citricking wrote:

This is an RPG, there are going to be trap options.***Going flurry edge is often a trap option. Going flurry with an animal companion that is not a mount is definitely a trap option.

That's a disappointing statement, considering that Flurry was the the default/only ability for the Ranger in the Playtest.

If you're telling people that Flurry with an ACom is a "trap option" (which you are), then I think there's a strong argument that Paizo screwed up this class because the Ranger + ACom was designed around Flurry, not Precision.

... This is exactly why we have the precision edge, now. In no small part due to [i]your[i] vocal commentary.

[Angel Hunter D]

pauljathome wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

Dargath wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

I've been messing around with a goblin Ranger that rides a wolf companion - seems to work ok in theory. Flurry helps with MAP, riding helps with action economy. Shield does seem a little too much for it though.

I’ve done my own build of that but it doesn’t work until level 2. Taking the Cavalier Dedication Feat and having faster Animal Companion (Mount) progression while still being able to dual-wield. Striking with the AC first (since you’re tied to the same MAP) but using Agile weapons for flurry mitigates it somewhat. You can still attack twice with Twin Takedown which you retrain into after level 1.

That's exactly what I'm thinking

Note that Beastmaster has one huge advantage over Cavalier in that it gives you a choice of mounts. My "cavalier" took the Beastmaster archetype for exactly this reason.

The Cavalier IS a better cavalier if you're ok with the mount restriction although not by a huge amount

I was looking at Beastmaster as well, but until there's an animal with the Mount ability that has a Swim, Fly, or something speed they're all land bound anyways. Roughrider Goblins can ride a wolf, which I've heard isn't that great but it makes out at medium size so I it's got that.

And if you ever get to 20 the Cavalier capstone is pretty good.

[Dargath]

Angel Hunter D wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

Dargath wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

I've been messing around with a goblin Ranger that rides a wolf companion - seems to work ok in theory. Flurry helps with MAP, riding helps with action economy. Shield does seem a little too much for it though.

I’ve done my own build of that but it doesn’t work until level 2. Taking the Cavalier Dedication Feat and having faster Animal Companion (Mount) progression while still being able to dual-wield. Striking with the AC first (since you’re tied to the same MAP) but using Agile weapons for flurry mitigates it somewhat. You can still attack twice with Twin Takedown which you retrain into after level 1.

That's exactly what I'm thinking

Note that Beastmaster has one huge advantage over Cavalier in that it gives you a choice of mounts. My "cavalier" took the Beastmaster archetype for exactly this reason.

The Cavalier IS a better cavalier if you're ok with the mount restriction although not by a huge amount

I was looking at Beastmaster as well, but until there's an animal with the Mount ability that has a Swim, Fly, or something speed they're all land bound anyways. Roughrider Goblins can ride a wolf, which I've heard isn't that great but it makes out at medium size so I it's got that.

And if you ever get to 20 the Cavalier capstone is pretty good.

I personally did want a Goblin Wolf Rider specifically and Ranger is my favorite class. I am still level 1 so far... but I’m really having fun with this character! However fighting Kobolds in tiny hallways is just not fun tbh. I don’t really enjoy Tucker’s Kobolds style Kobolds because it mostly feels like trolling...

[jdripley]

One party I GM for has a flurry ranger with an animal companion, and she's a beast! I wouldn't say it is underpowered at all.

I think the only "problem" is that as players we tend to theorize a perfect turn, get stars in our eyes about it, and then grumble when we can't pull off our One True Turn every single turn.

My party's Flurry Ranger isn't afraid to attack non-hunted targets. She's not afraid to leave her animal companion in the corner and go all lawnmower mode on the enemy herself. She's not afraid to sit back, call out targets, and have her cat do the heavy lifting for her. She's not afraid to mix it up and do a bit of all of that.

What I've learned from watching her play is that strict adherence to trying to pull off the One True Turn slows her down, so she simply... doesn't. Watching her play, it seems as though she just goes with the flow of combat, hunting prey when it's advantageous, positioning when that's better, using the cat as needed but not to excess.

And she holds her own. Boy, does she hold her own.

As a side note, this ranger began as a Precision Edge hunter, at my suggestion. And for exactly the reasons stated in this thread: action economy. Better to have one great hit than to have one OK hit and not have the actions to pull off the Main Thing. I don't really think she's doing any better or worse now that she switched. But now she's doing what she finds fun: attacking a couple times really accurately. So it's all good.

[Captain Morgan]

I'd be willing to bet that the disadvantages in action economy the flurry melee ranger has against the flurry archer with an animal companion are made up for by the animal companion giving flanking to the melee ranger. Plus they deal superior damage per hit and can be more accurate with agile weapons, to boot.

One thing I'd recommend to such a character is they walk around with their blades in hand as much as possible, even if you have Quick Draw. Getting weapons in hand for twin takedown is awkward. Glove of storing can help with that, especially if you want to walk around with an open hand. At that point, even on a "bad" turn you can hunt Prey, move, have your pet move into a flank, and use twin takedown.

[N N 959]

Captain Morgan wrote:

One thing I'd recommend to such a character is they walk around with their blades in hand as much as possible, even if you have Quick Draw.

Yes, I would call that SOP for all martials as there is no move and draw as there was in PF1. It's also worth pointing out that it appears Quickdraw only allows you to draw one weapon at a time. It's also not compatible with things like Hunted Shot or Twin Takedown, further evidence of the disjointed design job on the Ranger. Maybe Paizo will errata QD to draw two weapons, and be used with TT, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

As such, the only real benefit of Quickdraw is if you're going to switch weapons in your offhand on a 3rd Strike. With an ACom, however, I'm not getting a lot of third strikes.

[Captain Morgan]

N N 959 wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

One thing I'd recommend to such a character is they walk around with their blades in hand as much as possible, even if you have Quick Draw.

Yes, I would call that SOP for all martials as there is no move and draw as there was in PF1. It's also worth pointing out that it appears Quickdraw only allows you to draw one weapon at a time. It's also not compatible with things like Hunted Shot or Twin Takedown, further evidence of the disjointed design job on the Ranger. Maybe Paizo will errata QD to draw two weapons, and be used with TT, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

As such, the only real benefit of Quickdraw is if you're going to switch weapons in your offhand on a 3rd Strike. With an ACom, however, I'm not getting a lot of third strikes.

Nah, Quick Draw is great for switch hitters (and rangers are the best switch hitters) and can work wonders for bombs too. Also, you can get by pretty well using a mundane short sword in your off hand and a glove of storing with your enchancted short sword in it. If you want to go melee, you can get a sword in both hands without extra actions. If you find yourself needing a bow, just drop the disposable shortsword and quick draw the bow.

It is definitely more complicated than it needs to be but it works great if you think through the mechanics. Rangers are actually the one class that I don't think should walk around with a weapon at all times, and I guess rogues would be the other.

[N N 959]

pauljathome wrote:

Flurry and Animal Companion is NOT at all a trap. It is a VERY viable option and competes very well with other options. It is arguably BETTER than a pure flurry ranger.

Maybe you and citrick can have a chat?

Quote:

]Even with the Rangers reduced MAP modifiers the Animal Companions first attack is BETTER than the Rangers third attack.

It can't attack and Support at the same time.

Quote:

And it's not even an action at level 4 if you start adjacent to an enemy.

What do you mean?

Quote:

Not to mention using the support benefit from an Animal Companion can be wonderful on a flurry ranger (bear is great, velociraptor is great).

But you just got done telling us that you need to go with a Dex + Nimble companion, so you can't have both. Either your companion is a crit magnet and lying in its own blood, or it can survive a little and you're not getting the Bear Support.

Quote:

Or you can ride it and get insane movement for 1 action. Blowing a feat or 2 ONLY to essentially give you a 80 foot move speed is hardly a trap.

What feats do you need? Is the UnCommon Drake available in PFS?

Quote:

And that is all just taking the offensive value of the Animal Companion into account. It is also adding defensive value (another body on the board, extra hit points on the board).

That also means you need to heal it. Taking Heal Companion soaks up a precious Class Feat. Natural Medicine is an option, but not in combat, plus, if you crit fail the check, you're going to harm it and further risk it dirt-napping.

Quote:

And sometimes it even has value out if combat (rarely, but it DOES happen, more so if you build for it).

Please elaborate.

Quote:

Obviously, like every other character defining option in the game, you have to build your character AROUND the Animal Companion and not just toss it in at the last minute.I would think giving up

Hmmm. I would think giving up a minimum of 5 our of 10 feats would constitute building "around" a companion.

I think the challenge in a lot of these discussions is that it's easy to address any one problem by citing a solution. But often those solutions are mutually exclusive. You can't solve all these problems with the same build/choices. You can't talk about great Support damage with one animal and then cite a different animal to address the armor class problem.

[N N 959]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Nah, Quick Draw is great for switch hitters (and rangers are the best switch hitters)

Not following your logic. Quic Draw does not allow you to use Hunted Shot or Twin Takedown with the same action. So If you Quick Draw and use Hunted Shot or Twin Takedown, your HS/TT attacks are under MAP.

If we're talking about basic switch hitting: Ranged -> Melee, the Ranger's big melee payoff is from Twin Takedown, but QD doesn't help with that. So you are most likely advocating Precision and just skip Twin Takedown. Let's walk through it:

1. Start round with HP + Strike QD(Bow) + Strike? Your second strike is at -5. You can get the same thing carrying a bow in your hand, which GMs tend to allow.

2. Second round, creature is in your face (we'll ignore other PCs intercepting your Prey and forcing you to Stride). You'd be doing Strike(QD two-hander) + Strike + Strike? That third attack is at -10. Probably a waste of time. So you'd save yourself a Class Feat and just draw your sword and still get two Strikes.

Not seeing QD do a whole lot for switch hitting based on a typical exchange. So while it does feel like QD is aimed squarely at switch-hitters, at worst, you're having to use one, maybe two, extra action per combat without it.

I've gotten far more use of it as a means to switch agile weapons for creatures that are weak to specific damage type. But that is also rare, so I'm going to retrain out of it immediately and take something else.

Quote:

and can work wonders for bombs too.

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure that's not the reason Paizo put it in the Class Feat list. So why does it exist? I'm guessing to support switch hitting as you've suggested. Only, I am not seeing the real payoff. And while I agree switch hitting has become a Ranger trope, it's odd that it's only supported implicitly outside of QD.

Quote:

It is definitely more complicated than it needs to be...

Yes, you might say that.

Captain Morgan wrote:

One thing I'd recommend to such a character is they walk around with their blades in hand as much as possible, even if you have Quick Draw. ***Rangers are actually the one class that I don't think should walk around with a weapon at all times, and I guess rogues would be the other.

Wait...what now?

[Captain Morgan]

N N 959 wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Nah, Quick Draw is great for switch hitters (and rangers are the best switch hitters)

Not following your logic. Quic Draw does not allow you to use Hunted Shot or Twin Takedown with the same action. So If you Quick Draw and use Hunted Shot or Twin Takedown, your HS/TT attacks are under MAP.

And? That's fine. Your HS/TT don't do more damage under MAP or have critical riders like Stunning Fist. The only time it matters is when weakness or resistance is in play, and those two really just cancel each other out.

Quote:

If we're talking about basic switch hitting: Ranged -> Melee, the Ranger's big melee payoff is from Twin Takedown, but QD doesn't help with that. So you are most likely advocating Precision and just skip Twin Takedown.

Nope. Quick Draw helps Twin Takedown on a switch hitter just fine, and is especially good on the flurry ranger.

1)Combat begins, HP + Strike QD(Bow) + HS. Depending on ranges, you can do this once with the longbow and then again with the shortbow if they come within volley range.

Then if that enemy closes on you...

2) Strike QD(blade)+ Strike QD(blade) + TT. This deals optimal damage on a flurry ranger without a pet, and is the same as TT + Strike + Strike. Only you didn't lose two actions of having to draw your weapons.

You may get an awkward round, like a a non-hunted prey getting in your face. But even that is workable. HP+HS+QD a blade out in your off hand, then do the full blender routine next round.

Quick Draw basically means the only actions the ranger doesn't spend attacking are Hunt Prey, which is awesome for flurry.

Quote:

2. Second round, creature is in your face (we'll ignore other PCs intercepting your Prey and forcing you to Stride). You'd be doing Strike(QD two-hander) + Strike + Strike? That third attack is at -10. Probably a waste of time. So you'd save yourself a Class Feat and just draw your sword and still get two Strikes.

Not seeing QD do a whole lot for switch hitting based on a typical exchange. So while it does feel like QD is aimed squarely at switch-hitters, at worst, you're having to use one, maybe two, extra action per combat without it.

The whole premise of the first page of this thread was that action economy is tight as a ranger, particularly if you have a pet, and coming up with something better than a -10 attack is one of the most basic strategy points in this game.

[citricking]

For those saying flurry rangers are good with an animal companion that's not a mount, have you compared how well a precision ranger would do in the same situation instead?

[Vlorax]

citricking wrote:

For those saying flurry rangers are good with an animal companion that's not a mount, have you compared how well a precision ranger would do in the same situation instead?

If the Flurry Ranger is functional within the math of the game and the player enjoys playing them who cares that a Precision Ranger may do more damage playing optimally? It doesn't matter.

[citricking]

Functional within the math of the game is a very subjective thing. A lot of people care how well different builds do comparatively. It matters as much to a person as it matters to them.

To some people at wizard wielding a quarter staff two handed with moderate strength is a functional melee damage dealer, to others it's not. We can't argue that directly, but we can compare the effectiveness of different options to each other.

[N N 959]

Captain Morgan wrote:

The only time it matters is when weakness or resistance is in play, and those two really just cancel each other out.

Not sure what you mean by "cancel each other out." If a creature has weakness or a resistance, HS/TT are more effective when they are the most accurate.

Quote:

2) Strike QD(blade)+ Strike QD(blade) + TT. This deals optimal damage on a flurry ranger without a pet, and is the same as TT + Strike + Strike.

But it's not. My Ranger fights with longsword + Light weapon (agile). So if I start with two weapons, my TT is doing LS + LW. The next two strikes are with the agile weapon to leverage Flurry and MAP. In your example, TT comes at the end of the combo and TT requires a Ranger use two different weapons. So one of those attacks is at -6 instead of -4.

So,
0 / -2 / -6 / -4 vs 0 / -2 / - 4 / -4

Now I'll concede that's not a huge difference and you are correct that you're getting one extra attack (so far all GMs have let me draw two weapons with one action). So without QD you're getting:

0 / -2 / -4. That's a loss of a -6 attack if you'r using a non-agile weapon in your primary hand.

Nevertheless,I'll give you props on that melee combo. It does leverage Flurry via QD. As noted earlier, however, that kind of screws you on creatures with W/R.

Maybe I'll try some quick hitting before I retain out of QD and see if it ever works out.

Quote:

The whole premise of the first page of this thread was that action economy is tight as a ranger, particularly if you have a pet, and coming up with something better than a -10 attack is one of the most basic strategy points in this game.

Yes, but QD isn't helping you avoid a -10 attack.

[RexAliquid]

citricking wrote:

For those saying flurry rangers are good with an animal companion that's not a mount, have you compared how well a precision ranger would do in the same situation instead?

They are good in different situations.

[pauljathome]

N N 959 wrote:

. I think the challenge in a lot of these discussions is that it's easy to address any one problem by citing a solution. But often those solutions are mutually exclusive. You can't solve all these problems with the same build/choices. You can't talk about great Support damage with one animal and then cite a different animal to address the armor class problem.

I don't think I'm doing that.

I'm saying (or trying to, at least) that you can build quite a few quite good and quite different characters that are a "flurry ranger with a companion". They'll all have different strengths and weaknesses but all will be good. Many will be better than "a flurry ranger without a companion"

Your mounted ranger will be quite different from your archer ranger who in turn will be different from a sword and board ranger. If you want to emphasize damage you can do that. If you want to emphasize defences you can do that. If you want to emphasize mobility you can do that. You can NOT simultaneously do all of those of course.

Obviously, depending on your goals you'll pick different companions, different feats, etc. Some will require a large investment in the companion, others less.

[Deriven Firelion]

The Animal Companion is very good with the Flurry Ranger. It will not be as good at low level, but will start to shine at higher level.

I'm a lvl 10 Half-Elf Flurry Ranger with a MC Rogue Sneak attacker. Creatures start to have way more hit points at higher level and will last longer to a party beating on them. A ranger can often take mooks down all by himself very quickly with an animal companion.

What are the best ways to use an animal companion for a flurry ranger:
1. Flanking: Pick up a fast moving animal companion. Bird or wolf are good. They can move into position quickly and help you flank. Once you get Gang up at lvl 12, it doesn't matter how fast they move as they only need to reach the same space as you to flank.

2. Trip: This is mainly the wolf. You can have the wolf attack and if he hits, have him trip your opponent. Then have Disrupt Prey and get an AoO whenever the enemy stands up.

3. Impossible Flurry: At high level the sole function of your companion with his 1 action to stride or strike is get in position to flank to ensure your impossible flurry is pretty much six attacks of no real minus with agile weapons (7 attacks if hasted).

4. Attack: Occasionally the companion is in position to attack and can take a few attacks with a relatively low reduction.

How to build your animal companion:

1. Choice: Pick a choice with fast movement who can get in position to flank.

2. Nimble over Savage: Nimble leads to a better AC and Dex and generally better defenses.

3. Ambusher or Racer: Further boosts dex. And can boost defense or speed.

For a melee ranger the animal companion is a flank buddy who provides occasional extra damage. You don't need him, but he's helpful.

[Samurai]

There is a general feeling that the Outwit Ranger is the worst Hunter's Edge. What if, using house rules for now (and pushing for Paizo to make it official), it is also the best Animal Companion master? Add the ability to issue a command to your animal once per round as a free action to the Outwit description at 1st level, and at 17th level, you can issue a Companion's Cry (same as the lvl 4 feat, granting your pet 3 actions) as a single action. If that change were made, it would solve both the ACom issue and the weakness of the Outwit Hunter's Edge by actually giving it a specific purpose. And the fact that the Outwit edge includes an AC bonus vs your prey also helps the animal's AC issues...

[Deriven Firelion]

As far as the Flurry versus the Precision Ranger. The Flurry ranger will start slower and build up to more damage. You have to build for it. Flurry ranger is all about maximum damage per hit and mitigating the MAP penalty.

1. Rogue MC: You should work in rogue MC at some point with Sneak Attacker.

2. Weapons: Focus on agile weapons with Backstabber or Twin trait. I recommend Unconventional Weaponry to gain access to Sawtooth Sabers or use Dogslicers.

3. Runes: Weapon runes that do damage should be the focus. Serrating run is very nice on slashing weapons. Then energy runes. You want to end with a Serrating Rune and 2 greater Energy runes.

With a Dogslicer, that would make each weapon with +3 major striking serrating thundering electrical dogslicer.

4d6+1d4 slashing+1d6+2 precision +1d6 sonic +1d6 electrical+7 strength +6 specialization.

Average hit: 41
Average Crit: 82

Your opening round will go:
Animal Companion: 1 free action move to flank.
Mark:
Move to attack
Twin Takedown: 2 attacks

This will alter if you have to move farther, but most monsters have to get in range to attack you. So you can often delay letting the monsters waste an action moving to you while you relax and react after they move. Don't always presume you have to be the one moving to them. You can even often delay waiting for the other martial or characters to act to see how the battlfield lays out. Then move in to available flanks and go to town.

Second Round on marked target:
Twin Takedown
Attack
Either allow animal to attack and trip to set up Disrupt Prey or do another attack while letting animal companion take free attack.

If you get hasted, even better. It is in your best interests to have a way to get haste often. Flurry ranger benefits more from haste than a Precision ranger.

So far I've have some impressive rounds on my Flurry Ranger. My best round so far at lvl 10 is 110 points of damage with Disrupt Prey hit. I average 50 to 60 point rounds. That is with +2 striking weapon equivalent at lvl 10.

[N N 959]

pauljathome wrote:

I don't think I'm doing that.

Probably not intentionally. But I notice that this happens a lot in these types of threads. Someone posts about issues or problems with certain classes or concepts and then people chime in with an answer for every issue, ignoring the fact that they require different builds/choices.

Quote:

You can NOT simultaneously do all of those of course.

Right. But that tends to get overlooked/ignored/de-emphasized. Solving one problem usually exposes another. So when a post talks about a solution without acknowledging the exposure, it tends to come across as dismissive: No, that's not really a problem because you can do X, Y, and Z.

IMO, a flurry+Comp sort, is more of a zero-sum game than the other classes, but I am not an expert on the other classes, so maybe they have the same/similar issues?

[Dargath]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

The Animal Companion is very good with the Flurry Ranger. It will not be as good at low level, but will start to shine at higher level.

I'm a lvl 10 Half-Elf Flurry Ranger with a MC Rogue Sneak attacker. Creatures start to have way more hit points at higher level and will last longer to a party beating on them. A ranger can often take mooks down all by himself very quickly with an animal companion.

What are the best ways to use an animal companion for a flurry ranger:
1. Flanking: Pick up a fast moving animal companion. Bird or wolf are good. They can move into position quickly and help you flank. Once you get Gang up at lvl 12, it doesn't matter how fast they move as they only need to reach the same space as you to flank.

2. Trip: This is mainly the wolf. You can have the wolf attack and if he hits, have him trip your opponent. Then have Disrupt Prey and get an AoO whenever the enemy stands up.

3. Impossible Flurry: At high level the sole function of your companion with his 1 action to stride or strike is get in position to flank to ensure your impossible flurry is pretty much six attacks of no real minus with agile weapons (7 attacks if hasted).

4. Attack: Occasionally the companion is in position to attack and can take a few attacks with a relatively low reduction.

How to build your animal companion:

1. Choice: Pick a choice with fast movement who can get in position to flank.

2. Nimble over Savage: Nimble leads to a better AC and Dex and generally better defenses.

3. Ambusher or Racer: Further boosts dex. And can boost defense or speed.

For a melee ranger the animal companion is a flank buddy who provides occasional extra damage. You don't need him, but he's helpful.

Unfortunately my idea of an Animal Companion is not just a stat block to provide flanking with the occasional attack. I want my offense to be equal part myself and equal part my companion. That’s just my “class fantasy” though.

4th Edition D&D actually had a really good beast master with synchronized attacks where you made an attack and so did your companion all in the same power. It really felt like you were a team and animal companion was a meaningful part of your character... not just a road block to provide you with advantage. That sounds like a caster spamming the help action from it’s useless minion :\

If I wanted someone to just stand there... why wouldn’t I just attack a creature another melee party member was attacking?

[Captain Morgan]

N N 959 wrote:

Not sure what you mean by "cancel each other out." If a creature has weakness or a resistance, HS/TT are more effective when they are the most accurate.

HS/TT count as one strike for purposes of resistance and weakness. That means that compared to two normal strikes hitting they are better at punching through resistance but worse at triggering weakness. So you basically break even, assuming weakness and resistances pop up about as often

Quote:

But it's not. My Ranger fights with longsword + Light weapon (agile). So if I start with two weapons, my TT is doing LS + LW. The next two strikes are with the agile weapon to leverage Flurry and MAP. In your example, TT comes at the end of the combo and TT requires a Ranger use two different weapons. So one of those attacks is at -6 instead of -4.

So,
0 / -2 / -6 / -4 vs 0 / -2 / - 4 / -4

So it is slightly worse than having your weapon on hand for your specific build. But if you go with DEX as your key stat (a strong choice on a character who intended to open most fights with a volley of arrows, like the switch hitter we are discussing) then most of the finesse one handed weapons are also agile. The flurry rangers I have seen use shortswords or kukris or maybe a dogslicer. The main competition is a rapier in the main hand, but that doesn't fit the flavor of the Ranger well for most folks. And using solely agile weapons also has advantages in encumbrance. A ranger carrying a longbow, a shortbow, and maybe a snare kit n

The Quick Draw scenario also breaks even if you're using two non-agile weapons, like trying to build off forceful damage.

Quote:

Now I'll concede that's not a huge difference and you are correct that you're getting one extra attack (

so far all GMs have let me draw two weapons with one action).

That is a house rule though, which is surprising since I thought you played PFS. The Interact action refers to retrieving a singular object, not multiple. It isn't a terrible house rule-- I've occasionally let similar things slide because explaining why a player can't do that and what they can do instead is rarely worth it. But you could also just house rule that Quick Draw can be used with HS/TT at that point, so it is pretty hard to weigh it in a general sense.

Quote:

So without QD you're getting:

0 / -2 / -4. That's a loss of a -6 attack if you'r using a non-agile weapon in your primary hand.

Nevertheless,I'll give you props on that melee combo. It does leverage Flurry via QD. As noted earlier, however, that kind of screws you on creatures with W/R.

It screws you on resistance but it helps you on weakness, as mentioned earlier. (Though to be fair for weakness you can potentially make TT/HS your last attacks, I suppose.)

Maybe I'll try some quick hitting before I retain out of QD and see if it ever works out.

Quote:

The whole premise of the first page of this thread was that action economy is tight as a ranger, particularly if you have a pet, and coming up with something better than a -10 attack is one of the most basic strategy points in this game.

Quote:

Yes, but QD isn't helping you avoid a -10 attack.

Only if you don't build an alternative in. You can make a -6 or a -4 attack with Quick Draw on flurry, and other builds can do something else with the extra action. Instead of wasting an action drawing, you can command an animal, feint, demoralize, move into a flank, pick a new Hunt Prey, cast a warden spell, throw down a lightning snare... If all you can do is make a strike at a -10, you're doing it wrong.

[Dargath]

I am actually new to pathfinder 2e and I have only played 2 sessions so far, but I have been trying to figure out how to make the kind of Ranger I want, and several different kinds in general.

Ranger Builds

I think Gravity Weapon + Precision for a two-handed sword seems strong for the Lizardman Cavalier Ranger, Crossbow Ace + Precision seems good for for instance the Tengu Ranger, and I toyed with two different variations because Beastmaster Bond seems great for scouting (as a sniper would enjoy).

I created the Goblin Wolf Rider, an Orc with a regular bow and a boar, probably Flurry, and an Orc who dual-wields Hatchets and throws them also with a boar and flurry (I think), as well as the quintessential "Night Elf Beast Master Ranger" aka the Elf with the Panther and a normal bow.

Honestly I am not sure if any of these builds are good, or if I even know how to build a good ranger at all, much less one with an animal companion, but that doesn't mean I haven't put a lot of thought into it and tried to "crack the code" as it were.

[N N 959]

Dargath wrote:

I want my offense to be equal part myself and equal part my companion. That’s just my “class fantasy” though.

Oh, well you've stepped into it now, haven't you?

[I Win Internet]You clearly expect the game to provide your with your "class fantasy" and everyone should be "beholden" to your vision of the Ranger. It doesn't matter if that's true or not, I just have to say that's what's happening for it to be true.

I hope you feel sufficiently shamed and will stop posting and giving feedback to Paizo on how their game falls short, because clearly the Ranger class is perfect and the fault can't be with the game.
[/I Win Internet]

[Deriven Firelion]

Dargath wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

The Animal Companion is very good with the Flurry Ranger. It will not be as good at low level, but will start to shine at higher level.

I'm a lvl 10 Half-Elf Flurry Ranger with a MC Rogue Sneak attacker. Creatures start to have way more hit points at higher level and will last longer to a party beating on them. A ranger can often take mooks down all by himself very quickly with an animal companion.

What are the best ways to use an animal companion for a flurry ranger:
1. Flanking: Pick up a fast moving animal companion. Bird or wolf are good. They can move into position quickly and help you flank. Once you get Gang up at lvl 12, it doesn't matter how fast they move as they only need to reach the same space as you to flank.

2. Trip: This is mainly the wolf. You can have the wolf attack and if he hits, have him trip your opponent. Then have Disrupt Prey and get an AoO whenever the enemy stands up.

3. Impossible Flurry: At high level the sole function of your companion with his 1 action to stride or strike is get in position to flank to ensure your impossible flurry is pretty much six attacks of no real minus with agile weapons (7 attacks if hasted).

4. Attack: Occasionally the companion is in position to attack and can take a few attacks with a relatively low reduction.

How to build your animal companion:

1. Choice: Pick a choice with fast movement who can get in position to flank.

2. Nimble over Savage: Nimble leads to a better AC and Dex and generally better defenses.

3. Ambusher or Racer: Further boosts dex. And can boost defense or speed.

For a melee ranger the animal companion is a flank buddy who provides occasional extra damage. You don't need him, but he's helpful.

Unfortunately my idea of an Animal Companion is not just a stat block to provide flanking with the occasional attack. I want my offense to be equal part myself and equal part my companion. That’s just my “class fantasy” though.

4th Edition D&D actually had a really...

Animal companions are not built to do equal damage to a character or even 50% of the damage. The rules are specifically built to prevent this.

Animal companions are built to support the player adding a little damage, but mostly being there to flank, trip, add a support activity, or some other task like absorbing Attacks of Opportunity. And for roleplay purposes or downtime scouting or something.

If you want an animal companion that does 50% of your damage, then you will have to make some kind of house rule to figure that out with your DM.

I can only tell you that a melee ranger with an animal companion is very viable as a combat option. You can use precision or flurry and do well. Flurry requires building in a very specific way. I think Precision would fit you better because the animal companion does more damage with precision as it adds the precision damage to its first attack. This would get you closer to what you want.

[N N 959]

Dargath wrote:

Honestly I am not sure if any of these builds are good, or if I even know how to build a good ranger at all, much less one with an animal companion, but that doesn't mean I haven't put a lot of thought into it and tried to "crack the code" as it were.

I think you'll just have to play them to find out. For me, it's about whether the agency afforded by the class is enjoyable or not. Do I get to do things I enjoy? I'm less concerned about the min/max aspect, but I do expect a certain baseline of efficacy.

When I see all these random about how great this class chassis is, it occurs to me that's not because the class is particularly great at something. I think it's because the class is not great at anything in particular and that seems to give people some sort of unfettered freedom in doing what they want with the class. There's so little baked-in Ranger, the class is just another combat chassis. But with the feat locking that PF2 has implemented, you have to pick the Ranger to get access to most of the class feats. We'll see how that holds up as new classes and more dedications come on-line.

[Deriven Firelion]

It's hard to go wrong with a ranger. So try something you like and have fun. Ranger is one of the PF2 classes that is pretty hard to screw up. The chassis itself is just that damn good.