With the APG there are a lot of really good new archetypes. The one that is the most different is the Marshall. In particular I like his ability to hand out moves, attacks, temporary hitpoints, saving throws.
I think the archetype works best in a party with a couple of martial strikers.
The question I have is what character class is the best base for this archetype. AFAICT it fits most of them very well.
Champion, aura of despair + dreaded marshal.
And have an ally fighter who has intimidating strike.
edit: lol disregard, forgot that you need a stance and monk is the worst for that. "minor detail" ^^
You can do it as a monk to take advantage of stance savant etc but you'd want to start with monastic weps.
Then at 20 you can fuse the Marshall stance with something like monastic archery or tangled forest
A battle oracle plus Marshall is what I've been looking at recently. Steel Yourself! plus having Heal as a signature spell makes for a fun frontline support.
One limitation to bear in mind is "Trained in Martial Weapons".
For example, a Warpriest would typically have to wait until Level 4 for Dedication.
That said, Sustaining a spell while using the various Marshal class feats - maybe the occasional Stride and/or Strike - sounds like a lot of fun.
There is a general feat Weapon Proficiency which you can take to qualify.
Even if you aren't trained in all simple weapons you can just take it twice.
Humans can easily get 3 general feats from level 1. So Marshal is open to humans of all classes from level 2.
The initiation for the Inspiring Marshal Stance
requires a Diplomacy check. I assume that this the Request action? To join the Marshal in battle.
It matters because there are then feats and rules to get bonuses to this roll. Otherwise its a bit vague.
The initiation for the Inspiring Marshal Stance
requires a Diplomacy check. I assume that this the Request action? To join the Marshal in battle.
It matters because there are then feats and rules to get bonuses to this roll. Otherwise its a bit vague.
Both stances are just a check, not any other kind of action.
Both stances are just a check, not any other kind of action.The initiation for the Inspiring Marshal Stance
requires a Diplomacy check. I assume that this the Request action? To join the Marshal in battle.
It matters because there are then feats and rules to get bonuses to this roll. Otherwise its a bit vague.
OK. Fair enough that really narrows down the number of bonuses that you can get to the needed diplomacy or intimidation check to activate your Marshals Stance. Most modfiers are for a specific check.
So just thinking about how to build a Marshal.
The target of such check is your allies. The difficulty scales and is standard page 503 CRB so it is always a reasonable roll.
A marshal is going to want all the help he can get. Because he needs to make this roll, rerolling if he fails, in order to use most of his best feats. So getting enough bonuses to avoid critical failures except on a "1", and have a better chance at crtical successes is important.
So spells like Guidance and Heroism
For Diplomacy
Item bonuses. Diplomats Badge for +1 (level 5), Messengers Rings for +2 (level 9), Plus Silvertongue Mutagen for +1 (4gp) , +2 (12gp), some of the armours like Breastplate of Command etc.
Backgrounds: The Grizzled Muckraker, Harbor Guard Moonlighter, Read Shibboleths, and for the right party, Monstrous Peacemaker or Ex-Con Token Guard can you you circumstance bonuses. I can't see a GM allowing you to reuse the bonus from Lie Detector often.
Hellknight Dedication and Entreat with Forbears (Sorcerer 2) are interesting.
Those stances aren't so great that they warrant extreme investment, especially a mutagen, nor is the archetype so good as to burn multiple general feats!
I'd find a martial build that already leans toward Diplomacy and/or Intimidate and build from there. A Fighter or Champion w/ heavy armor has some stat space to get a 14 Cha w/o straining their other stats. I'd lean Champion since Fighters would be giving up Press actions and already can use their 3-actions wisely.
Arguably what you gain from Charisma is minor (unfortunately) even if present in many Marshal feats. A Marshal could as easily be a support Ranger from the back w/ no stance and modest Cha, at least for the best (IMO) Marshal feats.
I think maybe more important is considering your party's composition. Some classes have better Reactions than the Stride for Slow 1 (until much later) and you kinda need several martials to make the investment worthwhile IMO. A Marshal can be strong in its element, simply make sure your PC will be in that element or can prosper outside of it if subject to semi-random PFS shuffling.
Those stances aren't so great that they warrant extreme investment, especially a mutagen, nor is the archetype so good as to burn multiple general feats!
I'd find a martial build that already leans toward Diplomacy and/or Intimidate and build from there. A Fighter or Champion w/ heavy armor has some stat space to get a 14 Cha w/o straining their other stats. I'd lean Champion since Fighters would be giving up Press actions and already can use their 3-actions wisely.Arguably what you gain from Charisma is minor (unfortunately) even if present in many Marshal feats. A Marshal could as easily be a support Ranger from the back w/ no stance and modest Cha, at least for the best (IMO) Marshal feats.
I think maybe more important is considering your party's composition. Some classes have better Reactions than the Stride for Slow 1 (until much later) and you kinda need several martials to make the investment worthwhile IMO. A Marshal can be strong in its element, simply make sure your PC will be in that element or can prosper outside of it if subject to semi-random PFS shuffling.
The Inspiring Martial stance is the better of the two. But it is a status bonus and so incompatible with other status bonuses. So probably not the best to play with a bard.
I don't especially like Cadence Call - it is useful from time to time - but I probably wouldn't take it except as a prerequisite to Tactical Cadence
The key is To Battle. Handing out an extra move as it is important for other characters. Or an extra strike. It has the limitation of the being within your aura.
Obviously you choose whether or not to use the power. If an ally is likely to use their reaction, then don't do it. Which is why it is best if you have two or more martial allies. Note that at mid level figthers can get extra reactions.
I see it working best on a Sorcerer or Cloistered Cleric. Who can use their resources for buffing, and save their top abilities till they are required. Further even if they spend almost all their feats on the archetype they are still 90% effective in their base role as they still have all their spells.
Sorcerer or Cloistered Cleric would likely be better served w/ MCD Bard for some Cantrips, skills, and a later Composition feat (using a useful metamagic feat as the prereq). Keeps similar leadership vibe.
I think sinking even more feats into Marshal to qualify worsens it, though yes, those two classes would often be fine for Tactical Cadence and with the modest h.p. bumps. But I find some of Marshal's melee abilities are cool too, and wouldn't expect to build multiple Marshals in my gaming lifetime. I think Marshals would sync well with melee allies that lacked Reactions, yet may be a waste if your allies keep turning down your gifts. That'd be sad.
Or if the Sorcerer's always Hasting the whole party, making Tactical Cadence see little use.
Sorcerer or Cloistered Cleric would likely be better served w/ MCD Bard for some Cantrips, skills, and a later Composition feat (using a useful metamagic feat as the prereq). Keeps similar leadership vibe.
I think sinking even more feats into Marshal to qualify worsens it, though yes, those two classes would often be fine for Tactical Cadence and with the modest h.p. bumps. But I find some of Marshal's melee abilities are cool too, and wouldn't expect to build multiple Marshals in my gaming lifetime. I think Marshals would sync well with melee allies that lacked Reactions, yet may be a waste if your allies keep turning down your gifts. That'd be sad.
Or if the Sorcerer's always Hasting the whole party, making Tactical Cadence see little use.
Thats not really the point - the bard may well be better. Picking up the
inspire courage cantrip via a level 8 multiclass is in many ways stronger than the inspiring marshall stance (but it has an ongoing action cost).If you have a PC with Tactical Cadence then Haste gets left on a scroll and almost never cast. There are plenty of other good options for 3rd or 7th level spells anyway.
I don't especially want to compare it to other classes or builds till after I work out how to build it.
The question what does the best Marshall look like? I'm still thinking its a full caster.
What are there best abilities? I'm thinking:
the single Action free will save for any ally- Snap Out of It,
the single action move, or double action strike for an ally - To Battle
the area haste - Tactical Cadence
the ranged reaction attack for yourself, highly likely to go off every round - Target of Oppourtunity.
The feats that a more martial character would also like would be Coordinated Charge and Rallying Charge - they just seem mediocre to me.
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Champion seems like it has a lot of natural synergy with Marshal. It has a number of things I'd consider beneficial -
- First and most importantly, a compatible set of party tactics. "Stand near the champion" is something you want to be doing anyway. While the Marshal aura is (usually) a bit smaller than the Champion's reaction zone, the same general ideas apply. In a sense, the Champion and the party don't need to worry about spending extra move actions to try to keep people in the Marshal's aura, because they're already kind of doing that.
- Some charisma synergy
- A generally flexible set of actions. Champions don't regularly need to do things that require two actions, giving them the ability to flex into various Marshal options. (They do have to deal with having too many things that they want to do, but I think that's true for any Marshal.)
- The ability to personally benefit from the major effects of the auras. The easiest person for the Marshal to keep inside of an aura is the Marshal themselves, so it's nice if the Marshal cares about their own aura.