2 gestalt questions: Do Rogue Talents and Ninja Tricks count as the same class feature? Do Bloodrager and Sorcerer Bloodlines count as the same class feature?


Rules Questions


Rogue Talents and Ninja Tricks are exactly equal to each other, as you can use one to take the other. But they aren’t named the same thing, and there are several ways of being able to select from a limited selection of either RT or NT, but not both. Basically, if I take (insert class here) 5/Shadowdancer 10//Ninja 15, do I get both the Ninja’s NT and the Shadowdancer’s RT, or only the Ninja’s NT, since it advances the fastest?

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Bloodrager Bloodline and Sorcerer Bloodline are named the same, so it should be easy to say gestalt means you get only one of those. But they don’t function the same at all, choosing from entirely different lists. So if you get both on opposite sides of the gestalt, do you actually get both, or only one of them?


they are different class features, though they are similar, so you get them all. We've played Gestalt since it came out but it's been awhile since I looked at the book, but I believe it says you get all class features, you take the better of in things like saves, HD, BAB, etc. Otherwise a Cleric/Wizard only gets one set of spells, since they are both called spells in the class feature section.


The only time the "same feature" rule comes into play is when two classes share a functionally identical feature that normally benefit from stacking levels in a non-gestalt multiclass. The features do not always have to share a name even, for example, Trapfinding on a Rogue & Tinkering on a Sorcerer with the Seeker Archetype... Even though these two features have different names, they are the same feature. Under standard gestalt rules, you'd only get the faster advancement of the the two (in this example, they advance at the same rate). You don't double up the bonus from them.

In a similar situation, a Hunter//Druid who chooses an animal companion as their Nature Bond would not count 2x their level for determinging their EDL for their animal companion, they would however be able to advance 2 seperate animal companions using their EDL from each individual class for each. This works this way only because of the rules for how animal companions function when multiclassed, a multiclass druid/hunter can normally choose to stack their levels or may select a 2nd animal companion when they take their first level of the second class that grants an animal companion in a non-gestalt setting.

Put in simple terms, if two classes share a feature that would normally stack in benefit when taken in a normal multiclass scenario, you only get the benefit of the better version, not both.

Sneak Attack is another good example of a class feature that the "same fature" rule applies too. A gestalt Rogue//Slayer would get the full Sneak Attack Progression of a Rogue, but gets no benefit from the reduced rate progression of Sneak Attack from slayer.

As for the features in question in your OP...

Rogue Talents and Ninja Tricks are NOT affected by the "same feature" rule. However, some of the Talents/Tricks you can select might fall under the rule.

Sorcerer & Bloodrager Bloodlines also do not fall under the "same feature" rule. While Bloodrager Bloodlines do require that your Bloodlines be the same if you have levels in any other class that grants a Bloodline, the two features do NOT normally stack in a non-gestalt setting. A non-gestalt Sorcerer5/Bloodrager10 would have a 5th level Sorcerer Bloodline & a 10th level Bloodrager bloodline, not simply a 15th level Bloodline. Additionally, in the case of most bloodlines, the powers granted between the two types are vastly different (Draconic Bloodline being the most notable exception). As with the Talents/Tricks above, certain bloodline powers might be affected by the "same feature" rule.


I think the answer is "no," but "yes."

Ninjas, Rogues, and Unchained Rogues are different classes, and Ninja Tricks and Rogue Talents are different things.

But there is a Ninja Trick Called Rogue Talent, and there is a Rogue Talent called Ninja Trick. A Rogue can take the Ninja Trick Rogue Talent more than once. A Ninja can take the the Rogue Talent Ninja Trick more than once.


Chell Raighn wrote:

In a similar situation, a Hunter//Druid who chooses an animal companion as their Nature Bond would not count 2x their level for determinging their EDL for their animal companion, they would however be able to advance 2 seperate animal companions using their EDL from each individual class for each. This works this way only because of the rules for how animal companions function when multiclassed, a multiclass druid/hunter can normally choose to stack their levels or may select a 2nd animal companion when they take their first level of the second class that grants an animal companion in a non-gestalt setting.

Put in simple terms, if two classes share a feature that would normally stack in benefit when taken in a normal multiclass scenario, you only get the benefit of the better version, not both.

Sneak Attack is another good example of a class feature that the "same fature" rule applies too. A gestalt Rogue//Slayer would get the full Sneak Attack Progression of a Rogue, but gets no benefit from the reduced rate progression of Sneak Attack from slayer.

I don't follow the logic here. The animal companion a hunter gets an an enhanced version of the one that a druid gets. If you only take the best advancement of the two then a gestalt Druid/Hunter would get the hunter animal companion only. The same way your rogue/slayer is only getting the rogue sneak attack. In both cases you have two classes that grant an certain class ability where one is slightly better than the other and the abilities would stack under normal multiclass rules. Instead of getting double the benefit you get the better of the two. Regardless if you're talking sneak attack, wildshape or animal companions.

As for the OP. For purposes of gestalt the rogue talents gained by a shadow dancer are the same as ninja tricks. So the shadow dancer wouldn't gain any rogue talents. Similarly, uncanny dodge and evasion wouldn't stack with those abilities gained by the ninja.

as for Bloodrager Bloodline and Sorcerer Bloodline abilities I don't believe these normally stack. So they would remain separate and you would gain both. This is different than arcanist and sorcerer who's bloodline abilities do stack.


I think Bloodrager and Sorcerer Bloodlines are different class features. I think you can take a 2nd bloodline if you take a feat or something. I suppose a GM might let you treat 2 different Bloodlines of the same name as the same. I don't know how that would work.


I am comfortable with gestalt games, but I would probably ask a player who was considering two classes with bloodlines to reconsider. Gestalt games are already complicated enough. In this same vein, I would also ask players to only take one class that gives power points for psionics (3rd party stuff), one class that gives talents, one class that gives a companion creature, etc.

After all, gestalt is already allowing a ton of versatility. I don't think it should also turn into a management nightmare.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I think Bloodrager and Sorcerer Bloodlines are different class features. I think you can take a 2nd bloodline if you take a feat or something. I suppose a GM might let you treat 2 different Bloodlines of the same name as the same. I don't know how that would work.
Bloodrager wrote:
If the bloodrager takes levels in another class that grants a bloodline, the bloodlines must be the same type, even if that means that the bloodline of one of the classes must change. Subject to GM discretion, the bloodrager can change his former bloodline to make them conform.

The Bloodrager class ability forces the character to have the same bloodline between this and any other class the character has. The gestalt doesn't matter, the bloodline between Bloodrager and all other classes the character has must conform.

You could add another bloodline, as long as it doesn't come from a class ability. So feats and items that modify or add bloodlines would work. Not class abilities.


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Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Rogue Talents and Ninja Tricks are exactly equal to each other, as you can use one to take the other. But they aren’t named the same thing, and there are several ways of being able to select from a limited selection of either RT or NT, but not both. Basically, if I take (insert class here) 5/Shadowdancer 10//Ninja 15, do I get both the Ninja’s NT and the Shadowdancer’s RT, or only the Ninja’s NT, since it advances the fastest?

They're not the same feature. There are two evidences of this:

1. Extra rogue talent and extra ninja trick are different feats.
2. Each feature has an option to go to the other list.

As such, a gestalt ninja / shadowdancer would get the full progression of tricks and talents.

Just to be sure, a gestalt ninja/rogue is illegal, because alternate classes cannot be taken with their originals on the same character (a general rule of alternate classes; cavalier/samurai would likewise be illegal, as would a pally/antipally assuming you could ever sustain such a thing in the first place.)

Quote:
Bloodrager Bloodline and Sorcerer Bloodline are named the same, so it should be easy to say gestalt means you get only one of those. But they don’t function the same at all, choosing from entirely different lists. So if you get both on opposite sides of the gestalt, do you actually get both, or only one of them?

This requires fiddling in some cases. Let's take a pure gestalt of bloodrager/sorcerer with Earth Elemental bloodline. (Personally, I'd simply disallow gestalts of hybrid/parent to keep things simple, but there's nothing prohibiting this for hybrids as there is for alternates.)

In this case, the level 3 sorcerer (acid resist 10) would not stack with the level 4 rager (same).
The level 8 rager (burrow speed) wouldn't stack with the level 15 sorcerer (same).

As for the feats, you'd get rager-list feats at 6/12/18, and sorcerer-list feats at 7/13/19. Even if these levels were the same, you'd get both, as (almost?) nothing prevents you from getting bonus feats from both sides.

On the other hand, a draconic bloodline grants 1d4 claws from sorcerer for rounds/day, and 1d6 claws from rager while raging. They're drawing from different resource pools (ability rounds vs. rage rounds) so there's no problem with having both.

Hope that helps a bit?

Edit as to the non-stacking: here's what can be considered the general rule regarding hybrid/parent multiclass;

Quote:

Most heroes progress along a single path—choosing to become a fearsome fighter, pious cleric, or mighty wizard—but some are drawn to many roads. For them, it can be hard to find a balance between abilities offered by disparate classes. Hybrid classes solve this dilemma by blending features from two classes, adding rules to make them work seamlessly together.

Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don’t stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline)

(ACG)


Sandslice has it. While technically the features would work together, A those class combos would be a bad idea as theres still half of each class that they still don't get stacking (rogue and ninja sneak attack doesnt stack for example), but also B, you can't take a hybrid class with either of their base classes (at the same level) or the alternate classes as they are technically archetypes (and you can never take an archetype with the base class even in regular PF). Bloodrager has sorcerer as a constituent class, the bloodline magus steals a bloodrager bloodline so it *should* be illegal, and obviously Ninja/Samurai/Antipaladin are archetypes of Rogue/Cavalier/Paladin.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
you can't take a hybrid class with either of their base classes (at the same level)

Gestalt is a 3.5 rule, and Pathfinder-style hybrid classes didn't exist - at least not as base classes. If we want a suggested approach, we need to refer to 3.5 as written:

Quote:
A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

(src: 3.5 SRD. Emphasis mine.)

Here we have a suggestion that the multiclass-enabling Prestige Classes (which still exist in Pathfinder as such) should be banned outright. From this, we could suggest banning the hybrid classes.

However, there is no rule in Pathfinder that prohibits taking a hybrid class and its parent. The rules relating to hybrid classes, as I quoted previously, even tell us how to handle problems of feature-stacking if we do that.


Except the entire sentence is a suggestion: "should be prohibited"; if we ignore the "Prestige" part and extrapolate the purpose of the rule, combining a hybrid class to its parent class applies the same way. Personally, I completely disallow hybrid classes in a gestalt game (why be a warpriest when you can just be a fighter/cleric, etc.) because to me hybrid classes defeat the purpose of gestalt, and the purpose of the quoted rule.

(The rules about normal hybrid and parent stacking also don't really matter as there actually aren't any conflicting parts: swashbuckler and fighter training stack as different untyped bonuses but to the same rolls, hunter and druid specifically mention stacking for animal companions, sneak attack always stacks, and everything else is a different pool of utility like spells.)

The main point I had still stands, even if you *can*, you really shouldn't because the point of gestalt is to build wider, not straight taller.


I would allow 2 hybrid classes if they didn't have any parent classes in common. Slayer//Warpriest (Ranger+Rogue//Fighter+Cleric) would get my OK. Brawler (Fighter+Monk)//Swashbuckler (Fighter+Gunslinger) would probably not. Nor would I really want to see someone taking a hybrid class along with a parent class.

These are my preferences. Other GM's might be okay with even more "anything goes" style than I. But the way that I see Gestalt is to increase versatility, not to reinforce one-dimensional builds.

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