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Just FYI:
There's a report feature.
Don't point out insults in a post, report it.
That's why its there.
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To get back on the topic of Trasmuters:
The Feat "Form Retention" does not really make a lot of sense on a Wizard at all, and referencing a Spell that Wizards don't get when it is in fact a Wizard Feat at the very least seems like something that could be reworded.
If the Feat belonged to several Classes/Archetypes, then alright, but I do think it's pretty strange that a Feat that's specific to the Wizard uses a spell as an example that a Wizard doesn't get.
You have trained your mind and body to tolerate polymorph magic for longer periods of time, so long as you prepare for the change appropriately. When preparing a polymorph spell that lasts 1 minute and grants a battle form, you can prepare the spell in a slot 2 levels higher than normal. This doesn't grant any of the normal benefits of heightening a spell, but the spell lasts up to 10 minutes. For example, if you prepared animal form in a 4th-level slot with Form Retention, you would cast a 2nd-level animal form that lasts for up to 10 minutes. If the spell can be Dismissed, that doesn't change.
What exactly is a Wizard supposed to use this Feat in conjunction with?
I think it would certainly help alleviate a lot of the concerns if it filled its intended niche (and at level 8, it would be coming online around the "discrepancy" area of 4-6 spell levels).
Is there a meaningful combo with this Feat?
EDIT: From what I can tell, you can literally only use this with Aerial Form when you get 6th level spells because Pest Form already grants you 10 minutes per casting (and this does not extend that).
Humanoid Form is the only other option on the table, and it doesn't have a "battle form"....
While that's fine and dandy that at level 12 (4 levels later) it starts to actually do something, there does seem to be a glaring "oopsy" of no way to even use the Feat for 4 levels.
Not going to lie, I think just having Animal Form on the Arcane list would go a long way to solve the mixup, but yeah that's kinda wonky.
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It's always been odd that Wizard has Summon Animal but not Animal Form on their list.
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That feat really seems like something for Wild Shape Druids. Where they are able to use Wild Shape for in combat fighting, while using the feat for out of combat.
On a Wizard however, it really makes no sense given that there are many better out of combat spells that fill the same or a similar role.
Wild Druids already have a much better option that makes it last 1 hour and works with their Focus spells.
Meaning:* you're using Focus point spell and not a high level slot
* last decent length for out-of-combat utility
* it's applicable in the moment
* you don't waste a slot to maybe have it ready
Not to mention it's available at level 4.
The mis-referrenced spell aside, perhaps the feat will become more useful as more spells are released?
Hardly, since it's such a bad move anyway. You waste 2 levels higher spell slot to get 10 min duration? That's not useful for anything.
That feat really seems like something for Wild Shape Druids. Where they are able to use Wild Shape for in combat fighting, while using the feat for out of combat.
On a Wizard however, it really makes no sense given that there are many better out of combat spells that fill the same or a similar role.
And if there was a Druid trait on it, I would be like "yeah totally", but it's literally a Wizard Exclusive which is beyond strange.
On a Wizard at level 8 if they did have Animal Form, this would actually be a really cool Feat.
Okay, I think I found another possible target of errata
If this worked with Shifting Form then I could get it, but it doesn't work with this either because Shifting Form does not have the Polymorph trait (only the "morph" trait).
Not sure Shifting Form working with this Feat would be some huge buff, but at least the Feat would do something before level 12.
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On a Wizard at level 8 if they did have Animal Form, this would actually be a really cool Feat.
How? What would you do with it?
I don't have a good idea what to do outside few corner case scenarios with the far superior Form Control. How would you use 10 min Animal Form that's useless in combat?
Not sure Shifting Form working with this Feat would be some huge buff, but at least the Feat would do something before level 12.
You still couldn't use it at level 8, since Shifting Form itself is a level 8 feat and you can only get one.
How? What would you do with it?
I'm not sure you're going to like my answer, but I'd cast Animal Form and then, idk, use it in combat?
If that's not strong enough for your tastes (I understand Druids get Wildshape which is effectively better), then I'm not sure what to tell you.
You still couldn't use it at level 8, since Shifting Form itself is a level 8 feat and you can only get one.
Fair point there.
On a separate note:
Alright Nemo, you have the world's biggest magic wand, but you have to make the least amount of changes/errata possible.
What is it you'd do if you could?
Shifting Form does not have a "Battle Form" if I understood that correctly.
I don't know that "Battle Form" is officially codified, I just interpretted it as any spell that grants an attack form you do not have for 1 minute. Perhaps there is a codified one I'm unfamiliar with, but Shifting Form does offer 2 claws as a choice.
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I'm not sure you're going to like my answer, but I'd cast Animal Form and then, idk, use it in combat?
If that's not strong enough for your tastes (I understand Druids get Wildshape which is effectively better), then I'm not sure what to tell you.
It's not my tastes; you'll be a crit magnet with low damage without ability to cast spells.
For maaaaybe 2 encounters. Instead of preparing a proper form spell on the higher level giving you decent fighting skills in one encounter.
So you've spent a feat and a high level slot to get weak fighting abilities in one additional encounter.
Alright Nemo, you have the world's biggest magic wand, but you have to make the least amount of changes/errata possible.
What is it you'd do if you could?
I honestly don't know. I don't see this feat being worthwhile without major interventions.
I don't know that "Battle Form" is officially codified, I just interpretted it as any spell that grants an attack form you do not have for 1 minute. Perhaps there is a codified one I'm unfamiliar with, but Shifting Form does offer 2 claws as a choice.
Battle form as a term is defined in second paragraph in Polymorph trait.
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I came up with an idea for a better transmuter school specialization feat in the homebrew section. You can find it here.
I don't think something like that would "fix" the transmuter by itself, but one good transmutation cantrip, one good specialization feat (especially one that can benefit from the skills that your focus power boosts), and a few more battlefield control transmutation spells like Shifting Sands, or what Animate Rope should be, and I think you'd have a pretty good PF2 Transmuter.
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It's not my tastes; you'll be a crit magnet with low damage without ability to cast spells.For maaaaybe 2 encounters. Instead of preparing a proper form spell on the higher level giving you decent fighting skills in one encounter.
I will admit, extending it to 10 minutes does not seem to provide much extra value. The Druid feat by comparison does have this one looking a little whimpy.
I honestly don't know. I don't see this feat being worthwhile without major interventions.
If all you can think of is wide sweeping changes, then I'm not sure you're going to have much reconciliation on the matter.
I would say if you want people to take your complaints in earnest, having an idea of what would alleviate your concerns would help.
Battle form as a term is defined in second paragraph in Polymorph trait.
And if the Spell actually had the Polymorph trait, it would potentailly gain that distinction, but alas, it does not.
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If all you can think of is wide sweeping changes, then I'm not sure you're going to have much reconciliation on the matter.
I would say if you want people to take your complaints in earnest, having an idea of what would alleviate your concerns would help.
I have ideas, but would basically require completely new set of Focus spells, new spells, and a Feat or two.
I have ideas, but would basically require completely new set of Focus spells, new spells, and a Feat or two.If all you can think of is wide sweeping changes, then I'm not sure you're going to have much reconciliation on the matter.
I would say if you want people to take your complaints in earnest, having an idea of what would alleviate your concerns would help.
I did say least, not nothing.
I honestly think if Shifting Form were a little better that might be all that's needed.
I liked Unicore's suggestion in the homebrew thread, but I do feel like it brings about bigger problems in that Battlefield Control was the strongest part of Transmutation.
Do I think battleform could use love? definitely seems like it could use something. BFC? Not a lick IMO.
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Transmutation needs more low level Morphs and Polymorphs.
I'd exchange Physical Boost for some reactive power.
Form Retention would work better as something that buffs all Polymorph spells flat out, maybe 1-action Metamagic.
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If Form Retention just flat out made all polymorphs have better duration. No lower level, no action expenditure, just better duration. It would be a much better feat.
I'd agree with that. Honestly if it let you do the "2 levels lower" thing to make the duration 1 hour and the default was 10 minutes, that'd be something in its own right.
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If Form Retention just flat out made all polymorphs have better duration. No lower level, no action expenditure, just better duration. It would be a much better feat.
Imperial Sorcerer Focus power is enhancing not-top level spells to 10 minutes duration.
I think it'd be fair to make this a 1-action metamagic that only ever affects Polymorphs. It still wouldn't be particularly good feat, but at least it would work.
I assumed it was too be a bad buffer or Gish tbh. Since other classes can do both better.
I think an arcane transmutation cantrip that made maybe a 5x5 unoccupied square difficult terrain (or preferably Greasy) would go a long way towards addressing a lot of issues with transmuters/wizards/arcane. I see people claim that the issue is you need to be “strategic” because you are a “control” class, but it seems like at low level you can’t ‘control’ for more than a couple rounds per day.
Agreed. It seems like an odd gap.
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Wasn't "too many things were transmutation in PF1, since basically every kind of magic involves turning something into something else or making something different from what it was."
So I think there was a deliberate intention to reign in transmutation. It is conceivable they have overcorrected, but the good thing is that they can always print more spells.
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Yes Transmuation did have a lot of spell I did a quick count using the data base for PFSRD and got:
abjuration 300
conjuration 426
evocation 328
enchantment 319
divination 250
transmutation 752
necromancy 306
universal 7
illusion 216So I understand trying to trim it. But still there really was no reason to leave the school so barebones in the first 2 major rulebook. They had so many options to pick from that were not just polymorphs.
Let's also not forget that a lot of these Transmutation spells were utterly useless outside some extremely narrow and ridiculous use cases. "Crafter's Misfortune", or "Dry Gunpowder" and the like. Oh, a lot were simply rewrites in opposite direction - "Wet Gunpowder" too.
Transmutation was dumping ground for a lot of the super situational spells.
And now they've removed the useful stuff, but still left the situational in, like Sigil.
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Transmutation is terrible. Hopefully at some point they make schools or specializations based on what a wizard might want to do like shapechange or create things.
Let's also not forget that a lot of these Transmutation spells were utterly useless outside some extremely narrow and ridiculous use cases.
I feel like the notion that "Transmutation got too much before" was also cultivated in the design process of new spells, where fully half of the first drafts of new spells for splatbooks etc. were in transmutation because "they change or create something" (i.e. the standard by which fireball would be a transmutation spell).