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Mechas and powered armors are different... Ok
Mechas are vehicle's, while powered armors are armors.
In the first book it's clear that a few powered armor where a first attempt to make mechas because of: size, weapon slots and armor strength.
A creature smaller than the armor will use armor limbs to interact, to me this is basicly a vehicle since you will probably be in some kind of cockpit (imagine a skittermander in a gargantuan powered armor).
But what happens if a large or larger crature where to use a medium powered armor? We will increase the powered armor size.
Mechas are fuelled by a energy core but why huge and above powered armors are fuelled by crappy batteries?
Powered armors are OP and it's kind of hard balancing normal characters and mechas.
In my group i play with a soldier powered armor jockey, once i hit level 20 i will have 36 str and a lot of other stats, another player in my group it's focused str build but will reach 28, with alot of efforts, if he wears starguard all of his efforts are wasted because the armor has 30str. The whole group started to wonder, what if all the party used powered armor?
Building a solo mech for level 20(it's capped at tier15) it's not really impressive compared to a soldier powered armor jockey(maybe we don't even need the jockey)... But not everyone is a soldier.
From my point of view in the mecha book should come with optional rules to nerf powered armors.
Rules proposal:
1- powered armors do not have size, although thei can offer reach. Thei will funcion as armors using the users size or even raising it by one to a maximum of Large.
2- powered armors should disable your biggest personal upgrade. This will prevent 30str 28con players, or consider a powered armor a personal upgrade equivalent.
3 - every ranged weapon attached to the armor will consume a number of weapons slots equivalent to the number of hands required to operate.
4 - max dex should also be applied to reflexes
5 - review battery usage for charges/hour. Having powered armor with consumption per minute it's is not player friendly.
6 - if you have a base str higher (whitout personal upgrades) then powered armor level, increase the powered armor strength by 2. (Yes i know that using powered armor you are using the powered armor strength but two forces going in the same direction add to each other) this will reward str build characters.
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I've not run into problems with powered armor at lower levels, it tends to be expensive to upgrade, with a lot of gaps between levels where there isn't an upgrade to grab. I think the jockey just manages to gap those levels.
And looking at level 20 isn't a great starting point, pointing out if something is OP or not.
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I've not run into problems with powered armor at lower levels, it tends to be expensive to upgrade, with a lot of gaps between levels where there isn't an upgrade to grab. I think the jockey just manages to gap those levels.
And looking at level 20 isn't a great starting point, pointing out if something is OP or not.
I know that at lower levels it make little difference but as level go up player equipped with powered armors will have better combat power. My group is at level 9 i do have a good str, dex and con. I've already done my progression sheet til 20, it will take time but its there.
Yes it is expensive thats why i won't do.From a dev point of view the game must be balanced from de beginning to the end.
Now there will be a new content that must be balanced with the oldest for all levels.
Powered armors with equivalent size of mechas make no sense and even using normal battery, why not use power core?
I'm still not seeing it. Yes, you can have higher strength than a strength based melee character.
However, you can't fly (and force soles mk. II might not work), your number of armor upgrades are much lower than other armors you might buy, and you're spending something like 5-10% extra for armor of your level for less AC, oh, and you're likely slower than other characters.
Yes, you can build a power armor jockey melee beast, but... all that means is that you're catching up to solarians by spending feats and class abilities.
But, even beyond that, I highly doubt a power armored character is going to outfight a level appropriate mech for the party.
I'm still not seeing it. Yes, you can have higher strength than a strength based melee character.
However, you can't fly (and force soles mk. II might not work), your number of armor upgrades are much lower than other armors you might buy, and you're spending something like 5-10% extra for armor of your level for less AC, oh, and you're likely slower than other characters.
Yes, you can build a power armor jockey melee beast, but... all that means is that you're catching up to solarians by spending feats and class abilities.
But, even beyond that, I highly doubt a power armored character is going to outfight a level appropriate mech for the party.
Night Plate, IV KAC 26+6+10=42
Starguard KAC 29+4+10=43Shiftskin, III KAC 24+7+10=41
Power armor AC is higher but not huge difference 1AC means 5% less chance to be hit
The idea of this post was not to argue about Points and stuff but in the general idea of powered armor. What is the main difference of powered armor and mechas?
Draw a line, if a powered armor crosses modify it.
Powered armor have:
Flight Frame - Yes it can fly and it's huge but it drinks energy 1/minute
Warmaster's Harness - Gargantuan
The main question is these armors are equivalent to Mech but thei are not, but what makes them work different?
In mechs there is a energy generator, but why not install one in Flight Frame or warmaster and don't even worry about energy?
I mean the dev's can say it historicaly that those 2 where the first prototype that gave birth to mechas.
In my head the main difference is size, if the armor is alot bigger then you and you are using it's arms and legs, that is a mecha.
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Because a power plant does not fit on powered armor. THAT is the big difference. The structural reinforcement to support it, and the insulation/radiation shielding required to keep it from frying the pilot mean that you need to build a mech. Those big power armors are largest and most powerful that can be built to run off of stored power. And because they are operating on stored power, they would have to be carted to near the battlefield and then donned. You can't patrol an area in a jarlslayer. Having to change out every hour to hour an a half makes them useless for that purpose. Yes, it mentions the battle harness running for 20 hours, but that one has a power consumption curve way out of line with the rest.
Fun thing? You could be wearing powered armor WHILE operating a mech!
Fun thing? You could be wearing powered armor WHILE operating a mech!
Okay, but can you operate a huge mech while piloting gargantuan power armor?
If a 7' tall guy could drive a mini-cooper...
But probably no. Mechs are limited by the size of their operators. So huge operators wouldn't be able to operate a large mech, and so on.
Unless there's going to be squeezing rules applied.
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Let us remember powered armors like the mjolnir from halo have a miniature nuclear reactor, costing as much as a frigate each suit. So we cant differentiate mecha from power armors By power plant or if they can support their own weight, like in d20 modern. Paizo Has done a good enough job distinguishing the 2. We all know they won’t go back and rewrite all of the released material, so let’s look to the future not the past.
Halo naming conventions mean nothing for Starfinder. In Starfinder the difference is the power plant. Nothing outside the Starfinder rules has any say on how Starfinder mechs and power armor must behave, unless you house rule it in. Starfinder is Starfinder. Gundam is Gundam, Halo is Halo. Voltron is Voltron. They are each separate things, so please keep that in mind.
Let us remember powered armors like the mjolnir from halo have a miniature nuclear reactor, costing as much as a frigate each suit. So we cant differentiate mecha from power armors By power plant or if they can support their own weight, like in d20 modern. Paizo Has done a good enough job distinguishing the 2. We all know they won’t go back and rewrite all of the released material, so let’s look to the future not the past.Halo naming conventions mean nothing for Starfinder. In Starfinder the difference is the power plant. Nothing outside the Starfinder rules has any say on how Starfinder mechs and power armor must behave, unless you house rule it in. Starfinder is Starfinder. Gundam is Gundam, Halo is Halo. Voltron is Voltron. They are each separate things, so please keep that in mind.
I do agree every game is every game, you can't compare them since who made them are different people with different visions.
I agree with someone telling paizo probably will not rewrite their rules (although they do it when things don't work as intended or has some huge sploit)
However, i do disagree that the main difference between the two is the reactor.
Since power armors have size, the rules are kind of messy, and a clear line must be drawn.
If you don't have the size of the power armor, you will use PA limbs. What if your race is bigger then the PA? The PA is adjusted to your size (not you that will shrink, it would be funny to see a Uplift bear trying to fit in a medium starguard).
Imagine a Gargantuan PA being controlled by a skittermander, this is exacly what a mech is, the player will be controlling it by a system (like a vehicle)and not using the player's own limbs. Someone might even say that you are "driving" both but, one has a reactor and the other does not... True but, in the real world you have motorcycle and eletric motorcycle, they are different and have different weights ans frames but, they are still motorcycle (you still drive them the same way).
Imagine that the skittermander is a solarian, he could wield his weapon from the inside of the Gargantuan PA (i just don't know if it will be a Gargantuan solar weapon or if it will be a small one, lol) but could not from inside a Huge Mech... Even a caster can caste spells from the gargantuan PA and not from the mech... Crazy. Imagine how hard it would be for a player to manage the size of the gear since your character have one size of weapon and you PA has another
Some might even say "your GM should not allow you to have that armor". Some PA have a crazy power consumption and they are very situational, not player friendly and they don't fit everywhere. If that is the case there was no point in making those armors in the first place because NPCs can wear any crap of gear and they do have nice stats, if those are for their use, there was no need to place them in armory or core... They could be in Alien archive just as a flavor. As i mentioned before those huge and above armors where a way of giving a mech feel to the players.
So in a certain way, paizo can review the power armor system, the universe of starfinder is in expansion and technology ain't set in stone. For instance look at your cellphones think how they where 20 years ago, see how much improvment over time.
The same can be done to PA. If those extremely large PA where the first mecha prototype. With mecha breakthrough they discovered a new type of battery or miniature reactor (can be installed in any PA and has bulk1 as a armor upgrade) or upgraded the old PA (as a miniaturized PA, remember 199X cellphones size and how they are today). Logical explanations can be made to disguise the rule changes so that players don't get confused with the 2.
Now the comment each game is each game, it's still valid. Starfinder is starfinder and the devs can write any story or tech evolution they want.
Paizo can even make optional rules exactly like they've done in the GM book of pathfinder2, letting this rules go on your table if your group or GM agree.
Fun thing? You could be wearing powered armor WHILE operating a mech!Okay, but can you operate a huge mech while piloting gargantuan power armor?Think bigger. You ride a Huge mech, while piloting a Colossal mech.
( . . . which then takes the controls of a Super Colossal *ship scale* mech. . . )
Gurren Lagann much :P ?
Jokes aside, can a pilot wear a Powered Armor (like a Medium Battle Harness) or even a Heavy Armor? or is it limited to Light Armors, like Powered Armors?
I imagined you could be a stellifera wearing light armor, wearing standard size powered armor, riding a huge mech, while operating a colossal mech.
I imagined you could be a stellifera wearing light armor, wearing standard size powered armor, riding a huge mech, while operating a colossal mech.
A stellifera, wearing diminutive light armor, using hydrobody, and wearing standard light armor over that, while piloting medium power armor, etc...
(My Stellifera is eventually just going to get a fish bowl pet carrier on her hover drone and just adventure in that).
Maybe one key difference is the Size. A Mech at low levels can be Huge, while you need very specific armors to be Large.
I just want to remind you what about a race being large and trying to wear a large or smaller powered armour?
Someone is asking this question already
So limiting powered armour only up to large is not a good idea, as it was mentioned early in this thread, because we have so many races being large.
In general we need a few clarifications about size or character in powered armour and in a Mech and on top of that which armour inside a Mech.
So how many armors can be layered together? A character inside normal armor inside smaller power armor inside larger powerarmor inside a mid range mech inside a very large mech?
By RAW, you can only wear a suit of light armor while inside a suit of powered armor ("The cockpit of powered armor is too small to fit a person wearing heavy armor. If you’re wearing light armor while in powered armor, you gain the higher of the EAC bonuses and the higher of the KAC bonuses between the two suits of armor, and you take the worse maximum Dexterity bonus and armor check penalty.").
Judging from the description of the Cargo Hold auxiliary system ("The mech’s body houses a small garage able to store a single creature, vehicle, or other object no larger than two size categories smaller than the mech. An operator can move from a stored vehicle to the mech’s helm as a move action, and vice versa. A mech can have no more than two cargo hold systems."), if you allow installation in a Colossal frame (by RAW, it can only be installed in a transport frame which are Gargantuan only), it looks like the limit is a Small or Medium character wearing light armor inside Medium or Large powered armor with a Huge mech in a Cargo Hold inside a Colossal mech.
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So how many armors can be layered together? A character inside normal armor inside smaller power armor inside larger powerarmor inside a mid range mech inside a very large mech?Judging from the description of the Cargo Hold auxiliary system ("The mech’s body houses a small garage able to store a single creature, vehicle, or other object no larger than two size categories smaller than the mech. An operator can move from a stored vehicle to the mech’s helm as a move action, and vice versa. A mech can have no more than two cargo hold systems."), if you allow installation in a Colossal frame (by RAW, it can only be installed in a transport frame which are Gargantuan only), it looks like the limit is a Small or Medium character wearing light armor inside Medium or Large powered armor with a Huge mech in a Cargo Hold inside a Colossal mech.
Now that Tech Revolution is out, the maximum layering of armor seems to be: Small character wearing light armor, inside infiltration skin powered armor, then another suit of heavy armor or Medium powered armor (infiltration skin explicitly allows this*), inside a Large vehicle that can transform (see sidebar on Tech Revolution page 93) into a Huge mech when not carried in a cargo hold inside a transport frame (Gargantuan) mech. Light armor, infiltration skin (powered armor), heavy or powered armor, transforming Large vehicle/Huge mech, and cargo hold in transport frame mech for 5 different armors.
*- "Unusually, a creature wearing infiltration skin can wear an additional suit of armor over the powered armor, in which case they use the better of the two armors' EAC bonus, KAC bonuses, and armor upgrade slots. The wearer uses the worse of the armors' maximum Dexterity, armor check penalty, and speed penalty values."
So how many armors can be layered together? A character inside normal armor inside smaller power armor inside larger powerarmor inside a mid range mech inside a very large mech?Judging from the description of the Cargo Hold auxiliary system ("The mech’s body houses a small garage able to store a single creature, vehicle, or other object no larger than two size categories smaller than the mech. An operator can move from a stored vehicle to the mech’s helm as a move action, and vice versa. A mech can have no more than two cargo hold systems."), if you allow installation in a Colossal frame (by RAW, it can only be installed in a transport frame which are Gargantuan only), it looks like the limit is a Small or Medium character wearing light armor inside Medium or Large powered armor with a Huge mech in a Cargo Hold inside a Colossal mech.Now that Tech Revolution is out, the maximum layering of armor seems to be: Small character wearing light armor, inside infiltration skin powered armor, then another suit of heavy armor or Medium powered armor (infiltration skin explicitly allows this*), inside a Large vehicle that can transform (see sidebar on Tech Revolution page 93) into a Huge mech when not carried in a cargo hold inside a transport frame (Gargantuan) mech. Light armor, infiltration skin (powered armor), heavy or powered armor, transforming Large vehicle/Huge mech, and cargo hold in transport frame mech for 5 different armors.
*- "Unusually, a creature wearing infiltration skin can wear an additional suit of armor over the powered armor, in which case they use the better of the two armors' EAC bonus, KAC bonuses, and armor upgrade slots. The wearer uses the worse of the armors' maximum Dexterity, armor check penalty, and speed penalty values."
Gurren Lagann much XD ?
Gurren Lagann much XD ?
Not personally. Just updating my post from last year, since Tech Revolution added information on mechs transforming to/from vehicles (which allows a Huge mech in Large vehicle form to be stored in a cargo hold, which would otherwise require house-ruling) and a new powered armor that allows an additional set of armor to be worn over it (an exception to normal powered armor rules) that were not in the playtest.
Gurren Lagann much XD ?Not personally. Just updating my post from last year, since Tech Revolution added information on mechs transforming to/from vehicles (which allows a Huge mech in Large vehicle form to be stored in a cargo hold, which would otherwise require house-ruling) and a new powered armor that allows an additional set of armor to be worn over it (an exception to normal powered armor rules) that were not in the playtest.
My point is that the anime series Gurran Lagann is exactly that: You have humans piloting mechs... who pilot bigger mechs WITH their smaller mechs, and it gets bigger and bigger XDD
Small SRO, Riding a Medium Drone, Wearing Large Power Armor, Piloting a Huge Mech?